Official BBR Tier List v6

[TheReflexWonder]

Aren't you the one who dropped PT for Wario like A used *****?

I worked hard at it for two years. That's more than enough time. Also, I originally mained Wario.

 

[Zigsta]

Well firstly T you seem to misunderstand my post because the only reason I pointed out those characters were because zigsta said everyone above PT outclasses him. I never said that PT beating Luigi means he should be higher than them, I rather was explaining that in reference to PT's tier alone that he has positive or even matchups with almost everyone in his tier. I did not feel like continuing to go through the tier showing good and bad matchups, but cmon T stop making me seem like I'm doing something Im not.

Also I do not see how yoshi beats PT solidly, I play againt yoshi in tourny a good amount and in no way shape or form is it a shutout at all. He has grab release chains on zard and squirtle that are easier to get around the marth by an enormus margin, thats the only real issue that could used against PT in the matchup

Like Reflex said earlier, by "outclassed" I mean the characters above PT have better MU spreads. Head-to-head isn't important.

The Yoshi MU is definitely bad.

 

[CoonTail]

Not to mention Luis is the only reason people even know PT exists......man Luis think about it if you had spent another year at it people might have even started to know the matchup so crap like this wouldn't happen.

Just imagine.....

 

[MusicalMike]

From a purely competitive standpoint, Metaknight frustrates me to no end. It's like...why should I even bother playing this game to win if he's around? It feels like if I invest my time into any character aside from him, I'll never make it to the top. Sure if I pick up Falco I'll win tournaments now and then, but on the grand scale I'm setting myself up for failure in the long run because based on the tier list, I'm not going to beat a MK with Falco in a world championship. So it's like...why bother investing all these hours into learning frame data, matchup data, advanced techs if in the end I'm just gonna walk home with a 3rd place trophy...I mean placing isn't winning. 1st place is winning. Who cares about any other matchup but the MK matchup? Why does it matter if Luigi can wreck Samus, Luigi can't beat metaknight!

tl;dr top tiers place, but only metaknight truly wins in the long run. This game so broke.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

If you're referring to the BBR MU Chart... it's inaccurate for alot of characters, with Yoshi being one of them.

Hell I still believe Yoshi is Even with Wario, Peach, Sheik, Kirby, and possibly D3. While for -1/55:45 MUs that're -2, i'd say only Diddy Kong...

I've been seeing a lot of people arguing about the current MU list, and it's starting to get kind of annoying. Maybe if the Tier List and the MU chart were revised simultaneously, we wouldn't have this problem. Just saying.

From a purely competitive standpoint, Metaknight frustrates me to no end. It's like...why should I even bother playing this game to win if he's around? It feels like if I invest my time into any character aside from him, I'll never make it to the top. Sure if I pick up Falco I'll win tournaments now and then, but on the grand scale I'm setting myself up for failure in the long run because based on the tier list, I'm not going to beat a MK with Falco in a world championship. So it's like...why bother investing all these hours into learning frame data, matchup data, advanced techs if in the end I'm just gonna walk home with a 3rd place trophy...I mean placing isn't winning. 1st place is winning. Who cares about any other matchup but the MK matchup? Why does it matter if Luigi can wreck Samus, Luigi can't beat metaknight!

tl;dr top tiers place, but only metaknight truly wins in the long run. This game so broke.

I completely agree. I still have no idea why Meta Knight isn't banned, considering how he's pretty much required if you want to win a tourney (or even place). This is why I never enter money tournaments; it always winds up being "who's the best at Meta Knight and sometimes Snake, Diddy, or Falco" instead of "who's the best at Super Smash Bros. Brawl." Before someone accuses me of being some anti-Brawl *******, Melee has the exact same problem, except it's more like "who can break the game most with the top 4" instead of just trying to win.

 

[MusicalMike]

I was a bit rash with my post. A bit of a 2008 mindset lol. Metaknight just frustrates me to no end xD. If you wanna play w/ someone else aside from metaknight and try to win then by all means be my guest. <3

 

[CoonTail]

Like Reflex said earlier, by "outclassed" I mean the characters above PT have better MU spreads. Head-to-head isn't important.

The Yoshi MU is definitely bad.

Yea but the MU spreads are blantantly outdated especially for PT, not to mention if you think the yoshi MU is deffinitly bad then please explain what has caused you to feel this way. On a regular basis I play against yoshi and talk about the MU, I never struggle nor do I get much arguement from the yoshi players I had talked to.

So Im sorry if you dont agree zigsta but the MU's for PT are outdated and for some reason people keep thinking these MU's are correct when blantantly they are not.

 

[vVv Rapture]

because based on the tier list

There's your problem. The tier list ranks characters, not players. Just because your opponent is using MK doesn't mean they're automatically going to beat you. That just means that they're using the best character.

It's this kind of negative mentality that makes MK look better than he is. MK is good, MK is the best, but he isn't unbeatable, and most (if not all) top tier characters, and many mid-tier ones, have solid options and ways to handle MK even if the MU isn't completely 50:50 or close to it.

Either main MK or put in the work so that you can beat MK when you face him.

 

[T-block]

Except IC you didn't do anything at all to show that PT wasn't outclassed. If you don't want to go through the whole cast that's understandable, but focus on the top tiers, which are the matchups that are actually relevant. Nobody cares about PT-Luigi or PT-Ness.

Also, nobody has ever referenced the MUs on the PT boards. The fact that they are outdated doesn't change anything. I don't know why you keep circling around that.

 

[MusicalMike]

There's your problem. The tier list ranks characters, not players. Just because your opponent is using MK doesn't mean they're automatically going to beat you. That just means that they're using the best character.

It's this kind of negative mentality that makes MK look better than he is. MK is good, MK is the best, but he isn't unbeatable, and most (if not all) top tier characters, and many mid-tier ones, have solid options and ways to handle MK even if the MU isn't completely 50:50 or close to it.

Either main MK or put in the work so that you can beat MK when you face him.

Then why is he still winning all the tournaments? Surely it's more than propaganda about his capabilities at work there. Seems to me like action is speaking louder than theory.

 

[Zigsta]

Yea but the MU spreads are blantantly outdated especially for PT, not to mention if you think the yoshi MU is deffinitly bad then please explain what has caused you to feel this way. On a regular basis I play against yoshi and talk about the MU, I never struggle nor do I get much arguement from the yoshi players I had talked to.

I've played YOSH and Poltergust. Both feel it's an easy MU for Yoshi.

Squirtle MU's the worst, easily. You need to not to grabbed so as to avoid the CG > dair. Yoshi's perfectly content camping with Eggs and tiring Squirtle out, which just makes Yoshi even harder to kill.

The Charizard MU is largely similar to the Bowser MU, except Yoshi actually has guaranteed followups to the CG.

Ivysaur does the best out of the three, but at the end of the day, it's still Ivysaur.

 

[san.]

Not unbeatable isn't a very convincing argument lol.

 

[T-block]

Pretty much what Zigsta said, although I still think Squirtle does better than Ivysaur. Yoshi's air speed is absurd.

 

[MusicalMike]

Metaknight's beatable if you work on the matchup

Though I do see your standpoint. I don't mean to come off as aggressive, if I am it's just my hatred of metaknight manifesting itself into my typing lol. Honestly as long as you're having fun with what you're doing, that's what matters. Most competitors don't aim for world class anyways. it's not a bad thing per se, just a different mindset. Low tier mains are and always will be awesome, but at the same time I can't help but think that all that work will never land them in a world finals best 3/5 vs meta.

tl;dr it's all about what you wanna do and how far you wanna go.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

Ally picks up Wolf.

Wolf +6.

This list isn't judged on players huh?

 

[Mr. Doom]

Specifically when did Ally pick up Wolf? I highly doubt there's a correlation, but then again I could be wrong.

 

[Zigsta]

Ally picks up Wolf.

Wolf +6.

This list isn't judged on players huh?

Ally's use of Wolf is minuscule compared to Kain, Seagull, and Semnifer. I know I'm forgetting another Wolf on this list.

Basically, Ally using Wolf is a moot point.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

Specifically when did Ally pick up Wolf? I highly doubt there's a correlation, but then again I could be wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZx7qaxQdMs

Just seems a bit ironic... No one really paid any attention to Wolf that i've noticed, and all of a sudden.....

 

[Mr. Doom]

Zigsta, you forgot Holms. Why?

And that's when Ally picked up Wolf? Yup. No correlation.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Then why is he still winning all the tournaments? Surely it's more than propaganda about his capabilities at work there. Seems to me like action is speaking louder than theory.

He's not winning all the tournaments.

It's not like I'm in love with MK, and tbh if they banned him, more power to everyone else, but I'm being realistic here. You're fighting an uphill battle unless the BBR is on the verge of deciding on another MK ban vote.

@san: No it isn't, that's why my post didn't simply say that.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

Just interesting...

Like in Tier List 5, Don't remember who played well, but Fox just jumped 4 spaces out of the blue.

 

[Juushichi]

TKD reamed the West Coast while NAKAT lightly deficated on the East Coast. Then Zeton and robfox did work in the Midwest/southish.

No one did anything with Fox in the true south. No one.

 

[CoonTail]

-Tblock

The only reason I circle around that is because it plays a role in tiers and the fact of the matter is that using outdate MU's as some form of a basis is ridiculous. You need the matchups to be accurate in order for people to have an idea of if the character has gotten better or worse over time.

Not to mention why would I make an arguement about high tiers when Im looking for PT to place higher within the tier he is in already. Some of the most outdated matchup info is

PT vs. Snake
PT vs. Falco
PT vs. Peach
PT vs. Wolf

Look at those matchups right there.....2 of which are high tiers and the other 2 are of charcters that moved UP the most this tier list. Your going to tell me that wouldn't have had an effect??

As far as the PT yoshi matchup goes....squirtle is not the worst in the matchup he beats yoshi solidly on the ground along with having the ability to get around the Grab release chain without much difficulty.

Yoshi's air speed is good but squirtle can rack damage on yoshi with a good amount of ease based on typical u-tilt chains and regular squirtle combos.

Egg camping is not very difficult to deal with figuring you can watergun yoshi off stage and force him in a bad situation since a toadstool from anyone basically kills him, Not to mention squirtle has quite a bit of gimping capability against yoshi.

Zard can pass out damage faster than yoshi......and as far as CG's on zard go, remember how luis told us he didn't think the D3 matchup was that bad. Well its the same case here vs. Yoshi figuring zard has flamethrower in bursts to keep yoshi away without risking damage from Yoshi DI'ing through flamethrower. D-smash > Yoshi's pivot grab range so if he spams pivot grabs you can punish him constantly.

I just do not get where you guys get this from, but honestly Im playing PT as my main in the current Meta game and your claims are not true. This is why I circle the matchup because it seems this mindset or MU info both of you have is not right and I feel this is what makes PT suffer, tourny rep not included because we all know that hurts our character the most.

 

[Zigsta]

Zigsta, you forgot Holms. Why?

And that's when Ally picked up Wolf? Yup. No correlation.

OMG, I KNEW I was forgetting someone!

Sorry, Holms! <3

Juu, if you count TX as "true South," then don't forget MegaFox!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What about that Megafox kid? The thirteen-year-old?

EDIT: Zigsta beat me to it.

 

[san.]

Characters that have good MUs with MK deserve to be higher. 'Nuff said.

 

[Zigsta]

Ew colorful.

Dear Bowser.

Your fair is awesome,
Your uair's a joke.
Your bair is flawless.
Your dair can just poke.
Your nair is pretty good.
But Dtilt and Fsmash?
Please, if I'm in a bad mood.

I might be free against your jab.
But don't come near me with flamethrower.
OH GOD THE FORWARD B!
Bowser bomb, could you be any slower?
Utilt may scare me,
But Upsmash is a wrap
Even while I DI out of dsmash
Sonic still says you're too slow, sap.

Love, Pit.

I just saw this.

HOW DARE YOU, KRYS.

 

[YOSHssb]

IC, what Yoshis are you playing that you're beating? I've played Zigsta, Magik, and Chuck Nasty (admittedly he was a while ago, but I stilled played him), and I haven't lost against PT. I can't see how the MU is in PT's favor.

Squirtle's comboes, Yoshi can get out of through double jump armor.

Ivysaur is Ivysaur (and I agree with Zigs that Ivy's the best of the 3 in the MU)

Charizard is big so he gets comboed (and Yoshi has a TON of 2 => 4 hit combos that can rack up 30 => 45 damage quickly).

 

[Hippieslayer]

LOL this argument is not worth having, you're all dumb, bye.

Yeah, no idea how the other people can't grasp what youre saying. Its really simple. Why the **** vote democratically within the BBR about the order in which to place the characters when youre then gonna ruin the whole point of it by deciding tier separations through ''verbal discussion''.

Its like you forgot that every character on the list relates to every other character on the list and not just to the ones above and below whatever character.

 

[Kantrip]

I'd assume the above post is trolling, but just in case:

There was no shifting of the placement of any character. The BBR voted, and the results you see are the results of their democracy. What WAS discussed was where to place the gaps where one tier would end and the next one would begin. This is something that was not voted upon, because a better concensus could be reached by weighing the options and making a fair and educated decision.

EDIT: Well, I believe it was voted upon. Only seperately. That's what stage 2 was I'm fairly sure.

 

[Raziek]

Stage two was voting on our borderlines, which in turn determined the tier definitions.

Stage 3 was brief verbal discussion on the issue of PT in low tier, and where Fox/Peach/Wolf should go. There was almost a "borderline" category created.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I'd assume the above post is trolling, but just in case:

There was no shifting of the placement of any character. The BBR voted, and the results you see are the results of our democracy. What WAS discussed was where to place the gaps where one tier would end and the next one would begin. This is something that was not voted upon, because a better concensus could be reached by weighing the options and making a fair and educated decision.

But when deciding which order to place the characters a better concensus (whatever that means) could be reached by voting?

Like be consequent lol?

Furthermore the first part of your post indicates that you just like the rest of the folks loling at SFP just don't get it. I hate it when forumites don't read a persons post carefully just because they know they generally disagree and/or dislike that person. That's when you just know youre gonna have some other hiveminded people joining in and saying **** like ''lol SFP ur dumb lol''

SFP may be a bit annoying at times, but at least he tries unlike a lot of people. And he's definitely right here.

The next time you want to make a tier list I suggest you decide upon which method is the best and then stick to it instead of doing a halfassed job and coming of as lazy.

 

[Juushichi]

I thought megafox was robfox.

I guess I should change it to ATL south then. Either way I was just messin with iblis(SP?).

 

[Luigi player]

Wolf talk

Ally beat Lains MK with Wolf. Maybe that helped Wolf very little bit, but I don't think much.
Seagull, Kain, Holms and Semifer all do much work with Wolf since some time now. It's definitely not because of Ally.

 

[Kantrip]

I don't have anything against anyone on this forum.

I'm not sure what's hard to understand about how the BBR did things, what Raziek just said makes sense. The first vote determined the order, from Meta Knight to Ganondorf. That's all that had been voted on in the beginning. There was no data to draw tier boundaries from at this point except for a difference in how many votes a character got to be ranked a certain number. That doesn't speak for the character's actual tools in battle.

The second vote decided where to set the boundaries by sending characters either up or down based on their abilities and tools.

 

[YOSHssb]

I don't have anything against anyone on this forum.

I'm not sure what's hard to understand about how the BBR did things, what Raziek just said makes sense. The first vote determined the order, from Meta Knight to Ganondorf. That's all that had been voted on in the beginning. There was no data to draw tier boundaries from at this point except for a difference in how many votes a character got to be ranked a certain number. That doesn't speak for the character's actual tools in battle.

The second vote decided where to set the boundaries by sending characters either up or down based on their abilities and tools.

Then why'd Yoshi jump above PT? =b On the first vote (unless someone switched that data by mistake), he's clearly below PT, but then after step 2, he's above.

I'm not trying to start anything, honestly. I'm just curious, cause based on the data, No one voted him above 29th, and yet he became 28th.

 

[Ishiey]

We ordered within high/mid/low tier from v5 so Yoshi couldn't be voted any higher than 29th and PT couldn't be voted below 28th in stage 1. This was to prevent ridiculously large leaps coming from next to nowhere. In stage 2, the bottom of a tier and the top of the tier below were ordered with respect to eachother to iron out the transitions between tiers, more or less. I'm mobile so I'll stop there, but if this isn't clear someone should really elaborate because the voting will make a lot more sense if people... know how voting was done... >___>

 

[YOSHssb]

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. The knowledge that you couldn't vote a character out of a tier definitely makes the voting procedure make a LOT more sense.

 

[Seagull Joe]

-Tblock

The only reason I circle around that is because it plays a role in tiers and the fact of the matter is that using outdate MU's as some form of a basis is ridiculous. You need the matchups to be accurate in order for people to have an idea of if the character has gotten better or worse over time.

Not to mention why would I make an arguement about high tiers when Im looking for PT to place higher within the tier he is in already. Some of the most outdated matchup info is

PT vs. Snake
PT vs. Falco
PT vs. Peach
PT vs. Wolf

Look at those matchups right there.....2 of which are high tiers and the other 2 are of charcters that moved UP the most this tier list. Your going to tell me that wouldn't have had an effect??

As far as the PT yoshi matchup goes....squirtle is not the worst in the matchup he beats yoshi solidly on the ground along with having the ability to get around the Grab release chain without much difficulty.

Yoshi's air speed is good but squirtle can rack damage on yoshi with a good amount of ease based on typical u-tilt chains and regular squirtle combos.

Egg camping is not very difficult to deal with figuring you can watergun yoshi off stage and force him in a bad situation since a toadstool from anyone basically kills him, Not to mention squirtle has quite a bit of gimping capability against yoshi.

Zard can pass out damage faster than yoshi......and as far as CG's on zard go, remember how luis told us he didn't think the D3 matchup was that bad. Well its the same case here vs. Yoshi figuring zard has flamethrower in bursts to keep yoshi away without risking damage from Yoshi DI'ing through flamethrower. D-smash > Yoshi's pivot grab range so if he spams pivot grabs you can punish him constantly.

I just do not get where you guys get this from, but honestly Im playing PT as my main in the current Meta game and your claims are not true. This is why I circle the matchup because it seems this mindset or MU info both of you have is not right and I feel this is what makes PT suffer, tourny rep not included because we all know that hurts our character the most.

Wolf beats PT at least +1. Pt is a very insignificant character though.

I never know where to put him cause he has the weirdest matchups in the game and no one uses him anymore. Aposl=The only PT left?

 

[Raziek]

Just for further clarification on what Ishey said, these are my votes from the two phases, as an example:

High:
1. Meta Knight
2. Diddy Kong
3. Marth
4. Snake
5. Falco
6. Wario
7. Olimar
8. Pikachu
9. Ice Climbers
10. Lucario
11. King Dedede
12. Mr. Game and Watch
13. Zero Suit Samus

Middle:
1. Toon Link
2. Wolf
3. Fox
4. Peach
5. ROB
6. DK
7. Pit
8. Sonic
9. Kirby
10. Ike
11. Luigi
12. Ness
13. Sheik/Zelda
14. Sheik
15. Pokemon Trainer

Low:
1. Yoshi
2. Lucas
3. Bowser
4. Mario
5. Samus
6. Link
7. Captain Falcon
8. Jigglypuff
9. Zelda
10. Ganondorf

Phase 2

High-Mid

1. Lucario
2. Toon Link
3. Zero Suit Samus
4. Mr. Game and Watch
5. King Dedede
6. Wolf
7. Fox
8. Peach

Middle-Low

1. Ike
2. Luigi
3. Ness
4. Sheik/Zelda
5. Sheik
6. Yoshi
7. Pokemon Trainer
8. Lucas
9. Mario

Feel free to rip my opinions apart if you want, I know I'll get flak for Marth @3rd.

Also, do take note that opinions changed over time as we discussed things. That would be why I had Dedede ABOVE ZSS in Phase 1, but below in Phase 2.