Official BBR Tier List v6

[-LzR-]

But Smash 64 is awesome D:

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm not trying to start anything and I mean no offense to anyone, but I would rather play Smash 64 than Melee. It's just me.

Ouch.

(Not really. )

Smooth Criminal

 

[TheSlothStyle]

But Smash 64 is awesome D:

Smash 64 is awesome. It's more awesome than Melee, but less awesome than Brawl. That's just my personal opinion of course.

 

[Steam]

Frame 5 utilt
get @ those standard options bro

I know. but it hits behind him. making it pretty useless out of roll since you'll almost always end up facing your opponent. That's why I said fastest move that hits in front of him :I

also wtf lucario goes even with Falco and ICs for sure... and IMO possibly marth.
-1 with diddy, wario, probably olimar... and maybe some high tier I'm forgetting
he's -2 with Snake, Fox, D3 IMO

 

[Tesh]

Roll then buffer pivot uptilt.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

out of the top tiers bar MK probably not.
But diddy/snake already win by +2
and ics/falco/marth win by +1

-imo-

idk how olimar does...
i do think pikas should be timing your *** out though. same w/ TLs and pits. sonic. kirby.
most of the mid tiers.

It's not gonna happen every match obviously, timing someone out is not a consistent strategy but at least forcing lucario to approach gives you more gimp opportunities.


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211488
Unless it's a mistake. I distinctly remembered it being frame 5 and then went to check before I posted.



In that case my post wasn't directed at you.

No one outside of MK and Wario can run away and time him out as effectively. Other characters are good at running, but like you said it's not consistent. Because when they get into those non run away times they have issues.

Also corrections Falco is even, I have a lot of experiance in this MU. ICs are as well. Marth is a toss up. Diddy isn't that bad.

Ftilt is not frame 5. Utilt is.

 

[Flayl]

Hey guys,

Since it seems some of you guys still aren't sure how your character will fare after Meta Knight is gone, I went through the trouble analyzing a bunch of anti-ban data and it seems most of the characters have very interesting futures for themselves both inside and outside the metagame. Here's what's going to go down:

Meta Knight: Cleaned up, and got a real job teaching children about the dangers of ledge abuse.
Snake: Last seen infiltrating a mountain base.
Falco: Isn't complaining.
Wario: No longer sells his body as a secondary for pot money.
Marth: With a renewed competitive spirit, Marth now dedicates himself to living up to his tier list position.
Ice Climbers: Killed during a hiking expedition when their base camp was ransacked and their money stolen. Seemed to be the work of hired mercenaries.
King Dedede: http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5725/al1107151416binout.jpg
Samus: Quit Smash because it wasn't authorized by Adam. Was recently cast in a direct-to-TV movie on Lifetime.
Toon Link: After achieving stardom by skyrocketing into top tier, Toon Link posed nude in the London-based homosexual mens' magazine Cell Boy.
Kirby: After finally defeating Meta Knight but failing to thwart King Dedede, Kirby decided to cut his losses and retire in Florida.
Fox: Created a deviantart account to sell photos of himself to hoomans.
Pit: No one has seen or heard from Pit since he was spotted in a New York City alley. Allegedly, he was rocking himself back and forth, whispering "…but it was supposed to be different… they were only 55-45…"
Peach: Broke the curse of 17th place. Was cursed again, to 13th place this time.
Luigi: Quit Smash to enjoy a lucrative career as an alternate costume for Ken in Ultra Street Fighter IV: Super Arcade Deluxe Special Edition Plus.
Wolf: After finally passing Fox on the tier list, Wolf held a party for the whole smash cast to celebrate, but only Bowser attended, because he didn't have anything else to do.
Zelda/Sheik: Is trying to catch up to Snake.
Ness: Did a short hop fair from the ledge or something
Pokemon Trainer: Discovered Ivysaur Cancelling and moved up to B tier.
Mario: Finally learned to consistently cape teleport.
Bowser: Returned home after Wolf's awful party to catch up on episodes of Daria. Wolf came with him. He used to watch that show in the 90s and remembers it being hilarious.
Link: Missing: last seen leaving a seedy London-based book store, and has reportedly been seeing a psychologist about some deep-seeded gender issues.
Ganon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8xHjC27YvM

Hahaha, I've heard so much praise for Daria lately I might actually go and watch it!

 

[phi1ny3]

ICs are pretty even. By results, it seems Lucario would have the advantage, but that's because a lot of ICs suck at it and don't even do bthrow -> fthrow CG which is way easier than trying bthrow -> dthrow. Not that it's good justification, but my pocket ICs love the MU on lucs that don't know the MU because the dair if not spaced is easy bait for a CG if you can make it whiff. Desynch IB/jab -> grab usually does the trick. Some of Luc's approach options on block are really good against Nana though, I think ASC as a whole is really unexplored in the MU, because you can practically get a free separate on Nana from it if done properly.

Stinks because the MU is largely really boring as Luc, lots of dair camp on plats lol.

Falco is very even. Falco's CQC in each mixup has an answer from Lucario. The main problem is if they aren't dumb and actually commit to camp like 90%. It's a good thing that almost every kill option from falco is equally as hazardous, even utilt if whiffed = dair to the face (which at the percent lucario lives on average in the MU, makes for a strong punish, usually 18-22% lol). Lucario and Falco do pretty well on edgeguarding each other, although I haven't seen as much damage done to Lucario's recovery as I have seen to falco's, but I think once falcos learn to get over being counterintuitive and start playing an edgeguard game, this will probably change.

idk how Pika could effectively time out besides ledge play. Lucario is very anti-jolt camping (at low percents, FH fair -> dair/nair/uair, high percents AS eats them and frame traps pika's landing) and QA doesn't really do much to help either, esp. if it means running into a lingering hitbox. TL is possible, but this is something they have been doing from the get-go lol, and so far the record has been positive for Lucario. Pit could too, but frankly it's not a very frequently played MU lol

Diddy is def. +1 for Diddy. Trela and iirc Junebug think it's evenish at times, the trick is how well you are at avoiding bananas and if you get a hold of one. Banana in hand makes AS really powerful and you can pseudo-camp diddy back really easily. Lucario's edge options against Diddy are also really effective, fsmash covers almost everything lol. Diddy fair is probably the hardest part of the MU though, since it covers the air sooooooo well.

Marth is not even imo, it's close though (+1). I don't think even results can justify this, every top Marth v. Lucario recently has been won by Marth. Marth can't kill so easily, but his edgeguarding is Hell to deal with. It's very manageable though.

Snake is a given, utilt stuffing erry approach at higher percents makes it tough, and his damage output + weight makes it steep.

And yes, ftilt is def. not frame 5 <_<. Utilt is

btw shame on you Tesh you should feel bad for implying that rolling in front of the opponent is a good idea lol

also

But Melee is awesome D:

 

[Steam]

Roll then buffer pivot uptilt.

it takes 1 frame for turnaround. making it frame 6 and utilt is waaay more unsafe and has less followups than jab/grab.

 

[Orion*]

I know. but it hits behind him. making it pretty useless out of roll since you'll almost always end up facing your opponent. That's why I said fastest move that hits in front of him :I

No Johns

No one outside of MK and Wario can run away and time him out as effectively. Other characters are good at running, but like you said it's not consistent. Because when they get into those non run away times they have issues.

Well I do think characters like sonic will because they have to.... but we are on the same page.

Ftilt is not frame 5. Utilt is.

I wrote utilt didn't notice he had ftilt but whatever.

also wtf lucario goes even with Falco and ICs for sure...

Also corrections Falco is even, I have a lot of experiance in this MU. ICs are as well.

I know this is considered the standard

I just dont believe it.

Aura sometimes really gives falco trouble, because lucario is very good at staying safe in this matchup, which will give falco trouble killing him. But I just think falco should control the pace of the match enough at top level enough that he should be given a slight edge.

As for ICs. Ideally the way cheese plays it... is kinda broken :|
Anyone that consistently issdi the forward smash and grab you for a stock makes that **** look free LMAO. ntm ideally lucario wont be able to use aura as often in this matchup since he just dies when he gets grabbed instead of wracking up damage.

 

[Tesh]

it takes 1 frame for turnaround. making it frame 6 and utilt is waaay more unsafe and has less followups than jab/grab.

I'm pretty sure buffered pivots don't take up any frames. According the MGM's episode on MK's dtilt 0-death, its only possible with a buffered pivot dtilt out of a froll. This makes Lucario's uptilt slightly more viable close range.

 

[DMG]

Buffering IIRC takes off 1 frame from pivot Utilt combo. Normally it would take 2 frames: 1 frame to turn and another frame for Utilt to count into startup. Buffering it means you still take a frame to turn around, but Utilt goes into startup immediately.

Idk

 

[Steam]

I just dont believe it.

Aura sometimes really gives falco trouble, because lucario is very good at staying safe in this matchup, which will give falco trouble killing him. But I just think falco should control the pace of the match enough at top level enough that he should be given a slight edge.

As for ICs. Ideally the way cheese plays it... is kinda broken :|
Anyone that consistently issdi the forward smash and grab you for a stock makes that **** look free LMAO. ntm ideally lucario wont be able to use aura as often in this matchup since he just dies when he gets grabbed instead of wracking up damage.

I have a hard time believing it too... I actually hate the falco matchup and the ICs matchup.

but with Falco at least it's a matchup that lucarios have usually won at top level when it happens like Lee vs. rain and June vs. DEHF.

I don't have much ICs exp to speak of... but I'd think Ftilt would be more useful for keeping ICs out as lucario... just safer in general. but yeah... Lucario has to platform camp a lot against ICs... and ICs vs. Lucario pretty much never happens at top level :/

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

now that im a little more sober and not as pissy.

yall aren't getting my point about pit anyways.

i've stated multiple times that he isn't great because he goes EVEN with just about EVERYBODY. for every thing an opponent has on pit, pit has something of equal value in said MU. he isn't above average because quite frankly pit is THE AVERAGE. he doesn't really lose, he doesn't really win. it's a constant and consistent even. he has all the tools need to win every MU. he should be right with zss and tl and lucario because while they may solidly beat a lot of characters, they also have characters that counter them solidly. pit may lack more solid advantages in mid-top tier, but he also lacks disadvantages in said tiers.

this is the pit boards MU chart


-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:


against all the characters that matter, there is no advantage or disadvantage, literally just even. of these even MUs the only ones that could be a -1 for pit are pika and ICs, but the MUs are so close that it wouldn't matter which one you labled it. the only ones that could be +1 for pit are DDD and fox but even then it's so close that it just doesn't matter which one you lable it as.

i mean if you are the better player and you are using pit, you are set as you have not one unwinnable MU with MK gone (who honestly most pit's acknowledge as a -3 instead of -2). we have proof of plenty of these MUs, and the agreement of other boards in our MU discussions.

i know this is weird logic but the fact that he is a damn near perfect even with most characters as opposed to winning hard and losing hard should deserve a low-high tier placing just do to the fact that he doesn't lose to characters like those above him do, he just goes even with them.

like how do explain perfect average being above average? i don't know how else to say it. it's just the fact that pit doesn't get countered by anybody (that matters) nor does he really counter anybody (that matters) as opposed to being a counter that has counters.

does anyone else get this yet?

edit:

for referance though if the global lgl is ever lifted over half of those 0's could become +1 or more easily.


double edit:

lol at whoever said pit's attacks are slow

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12270217&postcount=2

damn near his whole moveset is frame 5 and 6. his utilt is frame 2. frame 4 nair. the only moves of his that are slow are ftilt and fair. the other moves are average speed for moves of that sort (dash attack, uair, etc)

 

[infiniteV115]

he should be right with zss and tl and lucario because while they may solidly beat a lot of characters, they also have characters that counter them solidly.

This doesn't apply to ZSS at all. Her MU spread is like Marth's; doesn't really destroy anyone or shut anyone down completely, and doesn't have it happening to her. Hell, look at the BBR MU chart, there are only 3 MUs there that aren't in the -2 -- +2 range. She has a good MU spread over all with a really low standard deviation.

Although I think ZSS:Dedede should be +4 for ZSS.
He's such a turd.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You won't +1 Luc even if the LGL get lifted, I'm certain of that.

 

[Steam]

so when do pits take sets from top diddys, top olimars, top pikachus, etc?

and if pit really had matchups on par with lucario/zss/tink. Then he'd place like them. but apparently the matchups that lucario/zss/tink have result in a more successful character.

@red- dair is an amazing anti plank anyways against pretty much every character that isn't metaknight or GW.

 

[BlueXenon]

lol at whoever said pit's attacks are slow

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12270217&postcount=2

damn near his whole moveset is frame 5 and 6. his utilt is frame 2. frame 4 nair. the only moves of his that are slow are ftilt and fair. the other moves are average speed for moves of that sort (dash attack, uair, etc)

I never knew Pit had that much range. I always thought he was short ranged.
_______________________________________________________________
I am sure that if one of the top 10 players in NA used Pit, he/she would get good results in tournaments.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

earth beat zori in pools and bodied bodied annuar at genesis (just to referance it happening in america). and he takes set off of brood

top diddy vs top pit as well as top pika vs top pit haven't happened. the lack of top level example doesn't prove he wins nor does it prove he loses either. that's just a deal with it situation.

i agree, pit lucario would be even lgl or not

@blue zelda

the range on jab and the range on dtilt always take people by suprise, same with the disjoints on the end of fair and ftilt (only problem is those 2 moves are slow start up). hell at YI:B and Lylat and other stages with slants his dtilt is angled so weird that it changes the spike box and everything and gives it ridiculous amounts of range (like seriously the aerial range it gets is just silly). this is only when he is facing uphill for referance.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I know this is considered the standard

I just dont believe it.

Aura sometimes really gives falco trouble, because lucario is very good at staying safe in this matchup, which will give falco trouble killing him. But I just think falco should control the pace of the match enough at top level enough that he should be given a slight edge.

As for ICs. Ideally the way cheese plays it... is kinda broken :|
Anyone that consistently issdi the forward smash and grab you for a stock makes that **** look free LMAO. ntm ideally lucario wont be able to use aura as often in this matchup since he just dies when he gets grabbed instead of wracking up damage.

If Falco could do it consistently and keep space adequately, yeah I'd agree. That not being able to kill and having an exploitable recovery doesn't help him in this MU.

Even with issdi, if Fsmash has Aura behind it, ICs can't grab it. Not like it matters since Lucario should be using more aerials over that unless he has a read or is catching them on landing.

If nana gets separated, which dair the move Luc will abuse in this MU, is good at doing and shield pokes pretty well. The only stage that is awful for him against them is FD, even BF is fine for him because as long as there is a platform it makes his Dair and other aerials easier to space safely.

This is my perspective, I'll admit never played Lain or anyone like that, I've only played it twice irl in Michigan.

~

I can't speak for the cast but for Lucario and Link I find those MUs to be accurate. Maybe Link to -1 but even then I think that is pushing it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Reply: Lucario shouldn't even be using fsmash v. ICs in the first place all that much (in fact, his fsmash imo in general is sorta meh esp. against Diddy, Snake, and Wario). Way too risky considering how the move can be grabbed if misstimed or if they dash grab it on reaction (it happens sometimes). AS is a far better punisher because of the threat of the charge (AS comes out on frame 8 from charge stance, just not when he's firing it from neutral) + the options out of it + the fact that he can use it in the air, and lucario is going to play a loooot more in the air, since his dair can actually contest with uair enough for him to be able to challenge IC juggling.

Cheese definitely plays the MU right, but iirc his win record is against Zucco (a tad old, like 09-10 old) and not-so-good Lucarios. Trela beat him in a mm iirc (both of them 3-stocked each other in the matches they won lol).

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

thats because trela is the true king of cario.


mah boy trelaaaaaaaaaaaa!

 

[Orion*]

top diddy vs top pit

ADHD ****ing bodied koolaid like made that **** look free. LMAO
Idk if it's on youtube but ive seen it enough irl

but with Falco at least it's a matchup that lucarios have usually won at top level when it happens like Lee vs. rain and June vs. DEHF.

but I'd think Ftilt would be more useful for keeping ICs

These are both very true. It's just my opinion like everyone has their own for MU's you can technically argue anything. Im more confident of ICs winning than I am for falco.

If Falco could do it consistently and keep space adequately, yeah I'd agree.

YEEEEE

Even with issdi, if Fsmash has Aura behind it, ICs can't grab it.

Yeah but like ideally lucario shouldnt get super high aura anyway, that's my main point. ICs are just waiting for grabs lol, grab = stock. Lucario is a lot less scary at low/mid percents.

If nana gets separated, which dair the move Luc will abuse in this MU, is good at doing and shield pokes pretty well.

Like falcon will **** nana if she gets away from popo. I realize that you have the tools to do this, almost every character does

 

[Chuee]

so when do pits take sets from top diddys, top olimars, top pikachus, etc?

You lost me at Olimar

and if pit really had matchups on par with lucario/zss/tink. Then he'd place like them. but apparently the matchups that lucario/zss/tink have result in a more successful character

No Pit mains in NA compare to the top mains of those three except maybe Koolaid, and he doesn't travel.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ADHD ****ing bodied koolaid like made that **** look free. LMAO

This means rather little tbh.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

how have you seen it enough irl? you're european (legit question here).

what tournament(s)?

what year?

im curious because maybe the vid is saved under a different tag than a normal match or something. i would like to see it so i have some proof. pit boards been looking for top level pit vs diddy for a while and it hasn't happend outside of japan which hasn't happened in forever. not mention US diddies>japanese diddies so please throw me a bone here. of course one match doesn't prove much but i would really like to see it anyways.

also if one match convinces you of something like this than pit beats MK +1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppughqle3dc


****ty logic. i want consistency damn it

edit:


1 recent video of pit vs diddy in tournament. not top level play but....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2mMJnTlSjc&feature=player_detailpage#t=264s

LMAO
cyve ****ing bodied this guy like made that **** look ****ing free!


again.... ****ty logic.

 

[NickRiddle]

earth beat zori in pools and bodied bodied annuar at genesis (just to referance it happening in america). and he takes set off of brood

top diddy vs top pit as well as top pika vs top pit haven't happened. the lack of top level example doesn't prove he wins nor does it prove he loses either. that's just a deal with it situation.

i agree, pit lucario would be even lgl or not

@blue zelda

the range on jab and the range on dtilt always take people by suprise, same with the disjoints on the end of fair and ftilt (only problem is those 2 moves are slow start up). hell at YI:B and Lylat and other stages with slants his dtilt is angled so weird that it changes the spike box and everything and gives it ridiculous amounts of range (like seriously the aerial range it gets is just silly). this is only when he is facing uphill for referance.

ESAM played a MM against Earth at Genesis.
Almost three stocked him game 1, then I stopped watching.

 

[Steam]

You lost me at Olimar

most of the time I ask this question I'm legitimately curious because I don't know all of a character's wins and losses for a given matchup off the top of my head outside of maybe my own character.

 

[Orion*]

how have you seen it enough irl? you're european (legit question here).

How long have you been playing competitively?
(legit question)
:|

I'm not european.

This means rather little tbh.

then i can argue the same in reverse every time pits state they have a win on a character :|

 

[Doc King]

This doesn't apply to ZSS at all. Her MU spread is like Marth's; doesn't really destroy anyone or shut anyone down completely, and doesn't have it happening to her. Hell, look at the BBR MU chart, there are only 3 MUs there that aren't in the -2 -- +2 range. She has a good MU spread over all with a really low standard deviation.

Although I think ZSS:Dedede should be +4 for ZSS.
He's such a turd.

Really? An auto win?

 

[phi1ny3]

Orion's originally from NJ, from what I remember :|

 

[Ussi]

He made Inui go pro-ban for a day

 

[phi1ny3]

Orion's MK is pretty campy, not gonna lie lol.

Anyone seen that match between him and Bloodynite? He was like 95% tornado those matches lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

Really? An auto win?

Please don't tell me you took that seriously...
Except for the 2nd part, I stand by it 100%. Dedede is such a turd.

You should get premium and change your name to Sp Ace Doc King

 

[Orion*]

He made Inui go pro-ban for a day

When you're record vs someone is 100% positive since the day the game came out, and then they get better and just start scrooging you it's pretty gay.

I had beat him 2-3 times in a row before that GFs set and I had never won a tournament before. I went balls deep, I think 70% of the matches went to time or something ridiculous.

Either way I beat him like 12 times or something stupid in a row and lost once before I left for europe. The one time I lost 2-1 last hit I came back and 3-0ed him in LFs XD

Orion's MK is pretty campy, not gonna lie lol.

Anyone seen that match between him and Bloodynite? He was like 95% tornado those matches lol.

yeah that ****'s pretty gay.
Idk I don't usually camp like that anymore, unless I have to. I'll play defensively but meaningless camping // only going for timeouts makes the game extremely boring/unfun after YEARS of doing it. it's also stressful mentally, and extremely inconsistent as a strategy.

It doesnt work vs the marths here, and most other players at this point I can beat without timing out. I timed out bizkit when I beat him in GFs over the summer once? and then I timed out a ZSS/Tay and a Wario/Chair in Berlin.

edit:

Honestly all of those timeouts I don't even feel like where my fault though. If both players have the lead and theres like a minute on the clock and they just keep camping like ******s it's their own fault lol :D

 

[Doc King]

Please don't tell me you took that seriously...
Except for the 2nd part, I stand by it 100%. Dedede is such a turd.

You should get premium and change your name to Sp Ace Doc King

I assumed u were joking or exaggerating.

Also, D3 ain't a turd. D3 is a King. Obey the King!

 

[Life]

If both players have the lead

..........

Sooooooo... how bout dem Sonics?

 

[infiniteV115]

I think Sonic is fine where he is. Perhaps maybe Ike and/or Sheilda will pass him. And maybe Kirby will fall below him. I don't see any other characters moving above/below him.

 

[Steam]

I assumed u were joking or exaggerating.

Also, D3 ain't a turd. D3 is a King. Obey the King!

he must be a ****ty king if he loses to knights all the time.

 

[infiniteV115]

Checkmate.
He also gets his *** kicked by eskimos, rats, ******* and birds.

And lol @
"Dedede is such a turd"
"D3 is a King."
"he must be a ****ty king"