Official BBR Tier List v5

[Judo777]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244329

Sheik's horizontal mobility isn't that bad.
like, average at worst.
the only thing she lacks is max airspeed and not like that matters for anyone besides yoshi jiggs and wario.

Idk man her horizontal airspeed is worse than Zeldas............................. lol

 

[Poltergust]

Isn't Zelda's airspeed above-average?

 

[Conviction]

I thought we were saving this for my matches I get around to LOL

but I use Tap jump and C stick to Dair. It's instant and mad easier to do.

 

[Exdeath]

I disagree. You have to account the extra time it takes for your brain to give a more complex order to your fingers. I don't know how many frames fox jumps in or how many frames dair comes out in, but our brain actually "hitconfirms" the inputs you make. The process of depressing, jump, down on the control stick and the A button will inherently take longer than just flicking your finger down on the C stick imo.

This is why practice is important. Dair might take longer for those who don't practice, but it isn't the brain requiring a hit confirm of the keys. People usually learn to perform actions in order, and as such we usually wait and react to the order being present. With practice, however, you should be moving your fingers in a pre-determined series. Most of the MvC3 cast involves buffering and doesn't give enough time to hit confirm every hit of a combo (except characters like Sentinel).

I'd agree with you if you were playing for the first time, but even the average competitive level player will have no problem automatically processing the mental recognition of a "Jump+Action" as being a specific pattern of muscle memory due to even small amounts of practice -- depending on the window of opportunity of course.

In this case, Fox' Dair has an ample 6 frame window to roll your finger straight down for frame perfection.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

RedHalberd you aren't accounting for buffering. You can't buffer OOS but you CAN buffer a dair out of a jump, it should take exactly jump frames+aerial in this case.

Actually in most cases Brawl's stupid easy buffering system can make things frame perfect. The only time it can't is out of shield.

I don't think people buffer enough. Buffering is the l-cancelling of Brawl, often making things a lot faster and tighter, making strings more difficult or impossible to escape, etc.

 

[Exdeath]

RedHalberd you aren't accounting for buffering. You can't buffer OOS but you CAN buffer a dair out of a jump, it should take exactly jump frames+aerial in this case.

Actually in most cases Brawl's stupid easy buffering system can make things frame perfect. The only time it can't is out of shield.

I don't think people buffer enough. Buffering is the l-cancelling of Brawl, often making things a lot faster and tighter, making strings more difficult or impossible to escape, etc.

Red Halberd is well-acquainted with buffering and understands its common uses. I think that there is a misunderstanding of some sort. Also, I believe that it is possible to buffer OoS.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I believe the man knows what buffering is, I just don't see how he can be accounting for it in this case is all.

And wait, I was under the impression that you couldn't buffer out of shield because it would force a grab. Like, say you want to buffer a dtilt out of shield: you would drop shield and during the shield drop frames, tap down and press A, but the A would take priority and thus your character would grab, right?

 

[Exdeath]

What comes to mind first when I think of buffering OoS is buffering a dash.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't even think you can do that. If you try to buffer a dash out of shield, your character walks forward because the game reads it as a tap input.

 

[Exdeath]

I don't even think you can do that. If you try to buffer a dash out of shield, your character walks forward because the game reads it as a tap input.

Try an empty Fsmash input (Forward+A for Fsmash, but without the A).

 

[xDD-Master]

You can buffer out of shielddrop.

 

[Judo777]

yea you can buffer out of shield. You can BDACUS during shield drop lag (which is hard as hell) I also don't think you even can cancel shield drop lag with a grab. It's lag if I'm not mistaken. They only person who can do stuff out of their shield drop animation is yoshi who can spotdodge and maybe grab out of shield drop lag.

 

[Steam]

I don't even think you can do that. If you try to buffer a dash out of shield, your character walks forward because the game reads it as a tap input.

this. you can't buffer dash out of anything

 

[Pikabunz]

Yes you can. I use buffered dashes to fthrow cg with Pikachu.

 

[san.]

^Yeah.

What are you guys talking about with not being able to buffer dash? I do it all the time. I could've sworn for OoS, too.

 

[Spelt]

this. you can't buffer dash out of anything

lolol to sig or not to sig....

 

[xDD-Master]

^Yeah.

What are you guys talking about with not being able to buffer dash? I do it all the time. I could've sworn for OoS, too.

Just hope you know, if you "buffer" a dash but you still hold the same direction (As suposed when going into a run), you'll walk instead of dash.

You need to tap the stick once in the buffer window, to actually buffer a dash :o

 

[Judo777]

this. you can't buffer dash out of anything

You realize that a BDACUS is a buffered dash followed by an buffered attack followed by a buffered usmash.

You can't buffer things out of GR but that's about it.

 

[san.]

Just hope you know, if you "buffer" a dash but you still hold the same direction (As suposed when going into a run), you'll walk instead of dash.

You need to tap the stick once in the buffer window, to actually buffer a dash :o

Yes, buffering a walk (holding control stick) is different than buffering a dash (tap control stick).. So what am I missing?

 

[Pikabunz]

You can buffer out of a GR.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you can buffer a run out of sheild.

HOWEVER
you CANT buffer a run out of shield in the direction OPPOSITE that which you are facing. the game reads that as a turnaround, and all you do is walk in that direction.

so technically, EVERYONE RIGHT!!

example
SH laser to bdacus with falco, if you throw the up smash in the same direction as the laser went, falco flys across the screen, if you try to buffer the dash and up smash in the opposite direction that you shot the laser in, falco simply turns around and down smashes or up smashes (depending on how you personally input your dacuses) in place.

 

[Shaya]

You can buffer out of a GR.

The person being grab released or the grab releaser?

I know that Marth can't buffer a dash out of a grab release. Well... he has a 1 frame buffer window (as in you can move frame 29, you can input a dash frame 27)

 

[Poltergust]

That doesn't make sense. Yoshi can definitely buffer a dash out of a grab-release.

 

[Nike.]

The person being grab released or the grab releaser?

I know that Marth can't buffer a dash out of a grab release. Well... he has a 1 frame buffer window (as in you can move frame 29, you can input a dash frame 27)

I thought we had a 3 frame buffer window?

 

[Reizilla]

That's for GR -> dair on MK, which is shared by 2 or 3 different actions, I believe.

 

[Pikabunz]

you can buffer a run out of sheild.

HOWEVER
you CANT buffer a run out of shield in the direction OPPOSITE that which you are facing. the game reads that as a turnaround, and all you do is walk in that direction.

You can actually buffer a dash in the opposite direction, you just can't buffer another action with it. It just buffers a turn around + that action just like in your example.

The person being grab released or the grab releaser?

I know that Marth can't buffer a dash out of a grab release. Well... he has a 1 frame buffer window (as in you can move frame 29, you can input a dash frame 27)

Marth has a normal buffer frame window when he does a GR and he can definitely buffer a dash out of it. You might be buffering incorrectly.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

You can't buffer whilst you're Floating as Peach

Straaaaaaaange isn't it

 

[Shaya]

Marth has a normal buffer frame window when he does a GR and he can definitely buffer a dash out of it. You might be buffering incorrectly.

Back in the days of frame by frame mode ><
Any 'dash' input before frame 27 would result in a walk.

 

[Tagxy]

Im certain you can dash from grab release with a normal buffer window because I do the dash itself fairly consistently. In fact it'd be almost impossible to do the GR -> dair if you couldnt.

People assume you cant buffer a dash from shield, GR, etc. because when you dash and then hold through buffer window it looks like nothing happens. They forget that you have to input the action then release it before the buffer window ends. Holding a direction through the buffer window is like buffering a step.

Buffering a run is trickier. You have to buffer the dash first by flicking and releasing in the buffer window, then hold the direction you want to run after you start dashing. Attempting to buffer a run without returning to neutral will just result in a walk.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You can double tap if you wanna dash

 

[Yikarur]

you guys are so bad.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

wat

I wasn't talking about buffering FROM a dash. Obviously you can do that, there are like 100 things in Brawl that use it. You CAN NOT buffer anything out of shield except for (apparently) a dash in the direction you are facing. For clarity's sake:

- If you try to buffer a jab OOS you will grab.
- If you try to buffer a tilt OOS you will grab.
- If you try to buffer a smash OOS you will grab.
- If you try to buffer a dash in the opposite direction, you will walk.

The only ways to perform an action instantly out of shield are:
- Dash
- Shield grab
- Jump, or jump cancel (usmash, buffered aerials other than uair, specials?)
- Perform the action with frame-perfect timing

There is no other way. Any tilt, smash, or jab performed during shield drop frames counts as an attack input, and any attack input performed during shield drop frames is still considered to have been done while you are shielding and will result in a grab.

The reason most tilt, smash, or jab OOS options work is because frame perfection isn't really required most of the time. You are punishing an opponent during the end lag of an attack, thus making frame perfection unnecessary. If you're a few frames late, your OOS punish will still connect.

In the case of RedHalberd's example, you can instantly jump out of shield without suffering shield drop frames and buffer a down air during the jump, so it is possible (and quite easy) to perform that action out of shield with frame perfection. If it was an up air, you would have to perform the up air instantly after jump cancel frames to buffer it, which is harder but possible.

Feel free to correct any misinformation but I'm like 99% sure this is how it works.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Buffering OoS =/= Buffering out of a shield drop.

You can buffer almost ANY MOVE out of a shield drop but you can only buffer certain moves OoS. This includes jump [and all moves that require jump input such as aerials and usmash], roll and spotdode aka moves that cancel shield drop.
Neither [buffered] jab OoS nor [buffered] dash OoS are possible but both moves can be buffered out of shield drop.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You can only buffer a dash out of shield drop, like you can buffer any move out of shield drop.

I'm pretty sure this is not true.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, I fixed the post. It was pretty awkward to read.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No, you still have this wrong. :\

Jumping out of shield is not buffering out of shield, it just cancels the shield like grabbing cancels the shield.

When you drop your shield, any attack action will still cause a grab just like any jump will still cancel the shield. There's a metagame minute using this very technique but I can't load youtube right now.

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPVB4-NLlsQ

Tapping A during the shield drop frames forces a grab, you can do entire CGs using this technique without ever tapping Z.

 

[Conviction]

When someone hits my shield I'm able to buffer a Dash Usmash...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Can you buffer during shieldstun or something? I wondered about that before I posted before.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No, you still have this wrong. :\

Jumping out of shield is not buffering out of shield, it just cancels the shield like grabbing cancels the shield.

That's totally not what I've been saying anyway. Have you even read my post?

When someone hits my shield I'm able to buffer a Dash Usmash...

Out of shield drop ... not out of shield. You can't buffer a dash out of shield because a dash doesn't end the shield animation.

 

[Pikabunz]

You can't grab during shield drop and you can buffer anything during shield drop frames.

The grabs in the video didn't happen during shield drop, he was still in shield just no longer holding the shield button. When you first shield you're forced to stay in your shield for at least 7 frames before you can drop it whether you're holding the shield button or not.