Official BBR Tier List v5

[Tesh]

wow a frame perfect disjoint. I guess powershielding and punishing everything with rest would make her good too.

 

[Browny]

Normally I'd destroy that post, but its tesh, so itd be wasted

 

[Flayl]

Considering Jigglypuff has to weave in and out to not be punished heavily for using her aerials on a shield, it's a lot harder than you seem to think it is to use that 1 frame disjoint.

 

[Thebest1pj]

This thread sucks..it's always the same people posting.

like no matter how far you go back steam and spelt will have a post on thT PAGE.

 

[Spelt]

You're right.
This IS terrible.

 

[Steam]

Marth is a better character than pikachu and olimar.

marth mains must all be god awful then

 

[John12346]

I'll leave the discussion of the timing of whether or not Jigglybutt's Bair can be manipulated to be effective...

but Spelt, that whole "hitboxes are tiny" theory is wrong. The video that showed alleged hurtboxes actually turned out to be Final Smash aura points.

Regardless, there is one frame disjoint, so let's talk about that.

 

[san.]

What's there to talk about? Bair is used for a quick, more disjoint hitbox if you want to retreat your hurtbox away from the opponent. Fair and others have more longer-lasting hitboxes but the hurtbox is present for a longer period of time. Fair is overall a more useful move though.

It's pretty difficult to trade with Jigglypuff if the player is avoiding getting hit. Jigglypuff has enough aerial speed and range to punish most missed attacks, or dodge around your spacing.

 

[Exceladon City]

marth mains must all be god awful then

Well considering that the only relevant Marth mains are MikeHAZE and the European Marths; Mr-R and Leon, then I'd say yeah the rest are butt. I don't believe Marth to be better than Olimar. Wario could easily be on par with him but not Marth in any way, shape or form. Marth only wins when he's in the lead, because he's **** at being defensive and unless you're bad at dealing with offense you can't avoid the beat down forever. But if you take away that lead from him, he is forced to approach and it's a 50-50 on either Fair or Nair, both of which are easy to avoid/punish. Atleast with Olimar, if he's down, he can just chip away at you with latches until you are back to square one and since he's a fortress, all he has to do is walk away and do Olimar stuff, while you break your neck figuring out how to get the lead back. That's just one of the major reasons why Olimar is better than Marth imo. inb4Shaya

 

[Tagxy]

Im trying to make sense of tesh and flalys reasoning
....

Nope, dont see it.

Marth is a better character than pikachu and olimar.

This thread already has enough trolling

@Redhalberd the gap between Trevonte and TKD isnt that big.

 

[M@v]

I don't partcipate much in tier list talk, but here's my 2 cents on some things:

-Mk should stay his own tier

-Marth will probably drop behind either oli or pika/maybe both (I still feel hes better than both, but tourney results have been otherwise)

-Lucario above G&W

-Fox should move up to the very last spot of B tier. If your using fox's death mus as an excuse to keep him in C, remember falco shares 2 of the 3 death mus fox has and is still the 4th best right now. Besides fox's death mus, the only one he has significant trouble with (imo) is Marth. All fox can really do is run away and spam lasers because marth's moves outrange and beat almost all of fox's moves +he can upB out of almost all of fox's combos.

-Toon link I'm not sure if he's either slightly better or slightly worse than fox; its close. Toon could definitely move to B tier with fox either ahead or behind him.

-Bowser above lucas and mario.

-DK moves up, at least above Peach. I think peach still has more options/better matchups than DK, but DK has done better in tourneys.

- Everything else the same.

 

[Shaya]

But if you take away that lead from him, he is forced to approach and it's a 50-50 on either Fair or Nair, both of which are easy to avoid/punish

Marth's only options are fairing and nairing, I agree.

Spose I'll just like.... throw out whiffing aerials when I don't have the percent lead and somehow win matches.
Because 100% of its going to be an aerial, and 100% of the time you're going to avoid it.

 

[Alphicans]

I feel as though Nike should post his tournament result analysis in this thread so people can stop thinking pika>marth in results. This is a bit ridiculous.

 

[Shaya]

I feel as though Nike should post his tournament result analysis in this thread so people can stop thinking pika>marth in results. This is a bit ridiculous.

A part of me wants to see the next tier list come out, see the massive qq, and give people something to ***** about. It's a lot more fun for these guys that way.

 

[M@v]

I just havent seen many marths around :/.

Like I said I still feel hes better than pika and oli, and I hope he doesn't drop.

And lol at all these people saying Marth needs to be defensive to win. Thats true only against MK and D3

 

[Conviction]

I read basically Fox got A tier and Ganon went above Peach, Pika dropped below DDD and Link became High tier.

Would that cause enough rage?

 

[Exceladon City]

Marth's only options are fairing and nairing, I agree.

Spose I'll just like.... throw out whiffing aerials when I don't have the percent lead and somehow win matches.
Because 100% of its going to be an aerial, and 100% of the time you're going to avoid it.

Because Marth isn't linear as hell. U rite. Marth as a character is

His ground game is only a threat when he's on the defensive and his aerials are his only off/def options that get **** done. I mean, like if you wanna Dtilt until you get close enough to me to do something significantly threatening, I guess I'll let you get close enough to whiff DB1 or something.

 

[Alphicans]

I just havent seen many marths around :/.

Like I said I still feel hes better than pika and oli, and I hope he doesn't drop.

And lol at all these people saying Marth needs to be defensive to win. Thats true only against MK and D3

Evidentally that's not really true either.

 

[fkacyan]

Because Marth isn't linear as hell. U rite. Marth as a character is

His ground game is only a threat when he's on the defensive and his aerials are his only off/def options that get **** done. I mean, like if you wanna Dtilt until you get close enough to me to do something significantly threatening, I guess I'll let you get close enough to whiff DB1 or something.

There is not a single character in the game that has advantage on shield without projecticles.

 

[Exceladon City]

There is not a single character in the game that has advantage on shield without projecticles.

?

 

[Alphicans]

What move would give him advantage on block?

 

[Thebest1pj]

f tilt to grab

and tl is mid tier weknow our place.

 

[Conviction]

Do cross-ups count?

 

[M@v]

Evidentally that's not really true either.

Well lets see. If you approach mk, he's mk. Chances are he has at least 2 moves that beat the one your using, and you'll probably get gimped in the process.

As for D3, The grab range with the cg following it means you have to be really careful as marth not to whiff

 

[Tagxy]

I feel as though Nike should post his tournament result analysis in this thread so people can stop thinking pika>marth in results. This is a bit ridiculous.

It's already been brought up and doesn't detract from the argument at all, which is and always has been that Pikachu's results are greater than Marth's at top level play. It's already given that pikachu is considered an abnormally difficult character to use compared to those around him, so it makes sense to see signficantly less success outside of high level performance.

I dont think there was ever any argument that as you become more inclusive of results outside high level, characters like Marth and Ice Climbers pick up in their results. The issue is that Marth mains like to use a more inclusive definition for results when most people believe (reasonably) it makes more sense to simply follow the quantity of and level of success for top performers of each character.

 

[Alphicans]

...... That's what I was talking about. You're still wrong to say that. Marth has better results at top level play, and probably better results at every level of play. His m/u spread is much better too. Pika>marth is simply ridiculous.

 

[Tagxy]

Marths results at top level play are not better, its already been discussed to the ground in this thread. And I acknowledged his results below that fall off, although if we used such things we could probably make a case to put GW and DDD back in A tier, lol.

And I was speaking only of results. I wasnt discussing his MU spread or other methods of analysis, although Id be happy to discuss MU spread both with the preexisting MU chart or through personal knowledge of each character.

 

[Ussi]

Dunno about top levels.. Pika seems to beat Marth there... Results wise. (cause ESAM gets top 8 a lot at nationals)

But i'll say there are more good Marth players.

 

[Pikabunz]

Europe doesn't exist.

 

[Alphicans]

I guess if you want to discredit an entire continent then sure pika's results are better. Keep in mind, the BBR has to consider European results because we have numerous Europeans voting on the tier list. If you do not care about their results, I cannot argue with you.

 

[Conviction]

Japan doesn't exist

 

[Alphicans]

At least not considering Japan has an argument. We have no japanese members in the back room, and we don't really know Japan's thoughts on the characters anyways.

 

[Life]

At least not considering Japan has an argument. We have no japanese members in the back room, and we don't really know Japan's thoughts on the characters anyways.

Not to mention the very different ruleset.

 

[Tagxy]

Perfectly fine to consider Europes results, however there should be a a large amount of caution in doing so. For instance as mentioned previously the reason the Japanese metagame receives little acknowledgement in our tier list is because we have no Japanese players in the bbr. Therefore I would expect Americans to focus on our own metagame and Europeans to focus on their own. Otherwise theres no reason Japan should not be taken into heavy consideration. Trying to combine two metagames that rarely interact is difficult as is, and the only persons with legitimate reason to focus on both is if theyve had the fortune to experience both. I saw a post by Hylian quite awhile ago saying something similar.

For the record I think Marth, Pikachu and Wario are about equal on the tier list.

 

[Llumys]

So, would more people agree with something like this?

S: Meta Knight
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers, Olimar
B: Wario, Marth, Pikachu, King Dedede, Lucario, Fox
C: Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Kirby, Pit, R.O.B., Peach, Sonic
D: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Luigi, Ike, Sheik, Pokémon Trainer, Yoshi
E: Bowser, Ness, Lucas, Mario, Samus, Zelda
F: Link, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf

 

[Conviction]

Wolf and DK so low y

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think most of the arguments not in favor of using Japanese videos and results are pretty hokey. If m2k never talked to anyone, you'd still think he was pretty good and that his results were pretty important.

 

[Tagxy]

I agree. If Americans are free to consider Europes metagame it's hypocritical to not give at least equal consideration to Japan's (or anyone elses).

Edit@below: same could be said for Europe

 

[fkacyan]

I think most of the arguments not in favor of using Japanese videos and results are pretty hokey. If m2k never talked to anyone, you'd still think he was pretty good and that his results were pretty important.

Ignoring Japan's results is essentially this:

"Holy crap their results are so different! This must be because they use an inferior stagelist!"

 

[T-block]

I also support including Japan's results, but that is completely untrue, SCN.

There is no doubt that a stagelist will have an effect on how strong a certain character is. Japan uses a different stagelist, but nobody is discounting them because their results are invalidated by an inferior stagelist. It's implied that the tier list we are attempting to construct is based on a more "North American" stage list. Is it really unjustified to give less weight to results from Japan because of this?