Official BBR Tier List v5

[Flayl]

As the only person that cares enough to ask: What makes you put Mario over bowser?

 

[tekkie]

that actually looks like a really good list

 

[John12346]

Actually, yeah, I just realized Sheik's too high. I just realized her results AND overall ability are both trash. Maybe one more revision of my list is in order, it seems to be riddled with more errors than I thought it would have. -___ -;

Bowser's just not very good. I've seen Bowser play, and I've seen Mario play. And overall, Bowser is way more limited than Mario will ever be as a character. Plus the results for both characters doesn't help Bowser's case.

Pit over everyone in the E tier expect kirby?

Uh, what? Pit's BELOW everyone in E tier except Kirby.

If you're confused, then it's probably because you didn't notice the edit :x

 

[Conviction]

Yeah, it's because I asked that before the edit lol.

I've got no problems now, that concern E. (Only one that applys to me lol)

 

[Flayl]

Hrm. Not really the kind of response I was looking for, but it'll do I guess.

 

[Spelt]

I like that tier list a lot besides snake > diddy.

 

[Nike.]

Well, Snake is technically still performing better than Diddy and he said the list was based on results.

Btw Seagull, you converted me to the "Wolf is legit" status <3

 

[Seagull Joe]

Well, Snake is technically still performing better than Diddy and he said the list was based on results.

Btw Seagull, you converted me to the "Wolf is legit" status <3

How did I do that lol?

 

[Steam]

Well, we have more snake mains than meta knight mains in CO ... let's just say that.
And my general practice partner mained snake up until recently.

I never understood why anyone would use it oos.
it's so easy to punish.

Four metaknight users. one serious snake user.

k thanks

 

[Spelt]

Four metaknight users. one serious snake user.

k thanks

lol... i was talking about overall.
if we're talking about the people who are currently active than it's like 1 serious meta knight main and 1 snake.

unless you count yourself, than lol.

 

[Steam]

DTL, Fishbait, lvl 0, and me are all active and use mk in tourney.

 

[Spelt]

and use mk in tourney.

lol okay.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Ganon's hits hard, every move he does can kill you around 100% you risk getting kill every situation. Ganon just gets beat just like everyone else in this game can.

Forreal though, just no dog. Everyone gets juggled but other gets juggled harder than the other. Example: Link gets gimped easier than other characters.

Yes, some get juggled harder than others. Yeah, snake is kinda like that. Doesn't stop the fact that his Aerials prevent recklessness while juggling/edgeguarding him.

Stop the madness, Snake is not a threat like a character with a good way of getting back down and/or good air mobility.

Bad argument is bad. You could say his Utilt isn't a threat because he's not mobile on the ground too. Mobility doesn't make moves not a threat. They can be defensive threats, AKA everything snake has.

This. You can limit Snake's options in the air to juggle him longer, stop acting like Snake is god mode in the air.

I never said he was god mode, I said his areials were limited in application, but do exactly what he needs them to do: scare his opponent to letting him back on the ground.

Wow, when did we start puttting down our controllers when we get hit by slow multi-hit moves? Dair is easy to SDI. It's basically the same as SDI'ing the Nair. Improve the SDI skills homie.

Snakes Dair isn't that slow lol. It's basically as fast as his Nair, only your opponent is grounded, meaning they can't drift while SDIing.

Seriously, people may suck at SDI, but until they consistently start doing it, it's not theory.

 

[Doc King]

Snake's air game is kind of poor when you look at it. He can use a good bair or nair at times, but if Snake has to rely on his air game, he can do poorly in a match.

 

[Doc King]

Since of the whole crouch cancelling thing that was discovered, do you guys think that Zero Suit Samus will go down a spot or 2 or something? Since crouch cancelling makes the down smash less useful.

 

[C.J.]

Since of the whole crouch cancelling thing that was discovered, do you guys think that Zero Suit Samus will go down a spot or 2 or something? Since crouch cancelling makes the down smash less useful.

Why would it? If you're crouching in anticipation of the dsmash you could just... shield instead... or run away, or jump, or roll away, or hit her first... or... why would you voluntarily get hit?

 

[Conviction]

No it's not, people aren't getting ready to CC that on reaction LOL. Also pretty much that ^

@Tarm: Your argument is bad. Difference between Snake's air game and ground game is. Snake has does have more mobility and options on the ground and can control the stage. He can't do that in the air and why be scared? Are you scared to hit every character who has a "plausible" way of getting down?

Snake gets juggled hard lol, doesn't make him a bad character but he just does. If Marth throws out his Dair it can "stop reckless juggling". Again why be scared where you can just limit Snake's options in the air. That's why Snake doesn't like being above a lot of characters.

 

[Doc King]

Why would it? If you're crouching in anticipation of the dsmash you could just... shield instead... or run away, or jump, or roll away, or hit her first... or... why would you voluntarily get hit?

Crouch cancelling reduces Zero Suit Samus's combos on opponents. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GuV42hx1hA you can click this for more details on crouch cancelling.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

he's saying if you see it coming why would you get hit just to crouch cancel if you can just shield the move, roll away, etc. and not get hit at all?

 

[Doc King]

he's saying if you see it coming why would you get hit just to crouch cancel if you can just shield the move, roll away, etc. and not get hit at all?

I'm not saying you should crouch cancel instead of avoiding the d smash. I'm just saying that if you get hit by the d smash, you can crouch cancel the move so Zero Suit can't pull off as many combos.

 

[Conviction]

What don't you have to be crouching before the move happens. Which means you have to see it coming. Which means you have better options.

Also idk if it's because your wording is messed up but, wouldn't inputting a crouch after being hit count as SDI?

 

[C.J.]

I'm not saying you should crouch cancel instead of avoiding the d smash. I'm just saying that if you get hit by the d smash, you can crouch cancel the move so Zero Suit can't pull off as many combos.

Look below
l
V
(how the hell do you make an arrow going down?)

What don't you have to be crouching before the move happens. Which means you have to see it coming. Which means you have better options.

Also idk if it's because your wording is messed up but, wouldn't inputting a crouch after being hit count as SDI?

You have to be crouching before the move hits you, just like in Melee. Hitting down after the move hits you is just DI/SDI/whatever.

Seriously, just watch the video you linked to... they're always crouching before the hit.

SWF- Where logic goes to die.

 

[Conviction]

@Doc:Since we are already talking, you never answered my question earlier.

Do you have a real basis for DDD being higher than Marth and Wario? Lol

 

[Doc King]

Look below
l
V
(how the hell do you make an arrow going down?)


You have to be crouching before the move hits you, just like in Melee. Hitting down after the move hits you is just DI/SDI/whatever.

Seriously, just watch the video you linked to... they're always crouching before the hit.

SWF- Where logic goes to die.

Oh ok I get it now, thanks for the info. I thought you could crouch cancel during the hitlag.

 

[Doc King]

@Doc:Since we are already talking, you never answered my question earlier.

Do you have a real basis for DDD being higher than Marth and Wario? Lol

Well for Marth, he doesn't have a camping game so he's forced to approach and Marth doesn't have as many broken features in him as dedede does. As for Wario, Wario can get comboed a lot due to his air release problem. Dedede is pretty hard to kill, has a broken spot dodge, can infinite some characters and chain throw combo a majority of the characters. Dedede also has a pretty good air game with his bair and fair combos and gimps and stuff. Dedede also has pretty good range like the f tilt and can camp with waddle dee throw.

 

[Conviction]

Camp with Waddle Dees -____- do you know how telegraphed and easy it is to PS that and how much lag you have with it? Fair combos? What is this?

Marth doesn't have to approach all the time, and his aerial game is way safer than DDD. Lol Wario isn't easy to grab so those air releases barely happen. Check his air mobility.

DDD isn't hard to kill. His spotdodge is gay that but isn't Falco gay.

Also does Marth lose to random mid tiers like DDD? Nahh...lol

Dog who do you play that let's get away with that? WADDLE DEE CAMPING?

 

[NickRiddle]

Well for Marth, he doesn't have a camping game so he's forced to approach and Marth doesn't have as many broken features in him as dedede does. As for Wario, Wario can get comboed a lot due to his air release problem. Dedede is pretty hard to kill, has a broken spot dodge, can infinite some characters and chain throw combo a majority of the characters. Dedede also has a pretty good air game with his bair and fair combos and gimps and stuff. Dedede also has pretty good range like the f tilt and can camp with waddle dee throw.

You forgot the part where DDD only has like 1 or 2 winning MUs against people he cannot CG.

 

[Conviction]

Forgot to mentioned DDD gets juggled like hell too.

EDIT: From losing anymore braincells, I'm going to work. Peace

 

[Juushichi]

Without the chaingrab, D3 would lose even more MU's tbh.

Call me crazy but I think D3-Mario would be solidly in Mario's favor if D3 didn't have it.

 

[Conviction]

DDD would be lol without CG.

 

[Browny]

Oh man... a new tier list means I'll have to come up with another idea for an MS Paint pic. Hmmmm.

 

[C.J.]

Oh man... a new tier list means I'll have to come up with another idea for an MS Paint pic. Hmmmm.

This is the most important topic to have come up yet. All other discussions must be stopped.

 

[Doc King]

Camp with Waddle Dees -____- do you know how telegraphed and easy it is to PS that and how much lag you have with it? Fair combos? What is this?

Marth doesn't have to approach all the time, and his aerial game is way safer than DDD. Lol Wario isn't easy to grab so those air releases barely happen. Check his air mobility.

DDD isn't hard to kill. His spotdodge is gay that but isn't Falco gay.

Also does Marth lose to random mid tiers like DDD? Nahh...lol

Dog who do you play that let's get away with that? WADDLE DEE CAMPING?

Correction: Dedede is a high tier character and dedede is pretty hard to kill with his fast falling speed, his heavyweight, and fast momentum cancel.

To answer your question, I usually end up being able to camp opponents with waddle dee throw. Even some ppl on AiB im able to camp with waddle dee throw.

Dedede has a safe air game too like marth, they pretty much go even with that and true Wario isn't so easy to grab.

Dedede actually has one of the best spot dodges in the game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=079p47Y42Og

 

[Tagxy]

The ICs have really exceptional results, especially in the success/usage ratio, even when excluding Ally's influence. In addition to that, they have an all around astounding pressure game coupled with their CG infinites to death.

This is part of the problem I have with weighing tournaments entirely by attendance, it still doesn't account for the quality of the players youre fighting. Not that the data isnt great, but you still have to look at the big picture. In spite of a high success to usage ratio, I cant see how anyone could look at Ice Climbers results in the last year and say they have exceptional results. Instead it might simply be that a character dominates more at mid-level play when compared to high level. tbh I think the same is true for characters like marth and wario as well, although not nearly as much as for ICs. Is there some major tournament Im missing that an Ice Climber did particularly well in since the last tier list?

Data is data.

All tournaments with an attendance of over 50 since September.
Sorry DJBrowny

High Tier Secondary Usage:
1. Diddy Kong (2%)
2. Olimar (3%)
3. Pikachu (4%)
4. Marth (9%)
5. Falco / Snake (12%)
6. Lucario (14%)
7. Wario (17%)
8. Dedede (18%)
9. G&W / Ice Climbers (25%)

As in, according to large tournaments, if you use Ice Climbers, you're a lot more likely to be having secondaries than otherwise.

This is interesting, is there any more data like this you can share?

Also does this mean strictly "X main uses a secondary Y% of the time"? Or "X character was used with another character Y% of the time"?

 

[Doc King]

Without the chaingrab, D3 would lose even more MU's tbh.

Call me crazy but I think D3-Mario would be solidly in Mario's favor if D3 didn't have it.

I wouldn't think so because Dedede can kill mario easily with the up tilt, Mario has poor range while dedede has good range like f tilt to keep mario away. Also Mario's recovery is poor so dedede can gimp him easily. Also since of Mario's poor running speed, Dedede can camp pressure mario so mario is gonna have a hard time approaching dedede. It would still be in dedede's favor imo.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

^loooooooollllll

 

[Shaya]

Dedede ***** zero suit samus, so that's at least one character he beats without cging them =)

oh but in all seriousenss

He beats Squirtle, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Sheik (imo)

Oh and his G&W match up isn't half bad at all.

 

[Clai]

what makes people think falcon is THAT bad? Even if you think he is 2nd worst, he is definitely a gap above ganon.

Captain Falcon is most certainly not a gap above Ganondorf. You can go on all dai about how Ganon can kill people in seven different ways but it doesn't cover how bad he is, and while I'm not saying that Ganon's power is going to make him rise any time soon, you sure as ever are going to respect him. You can theorycraft all you want about how vulnerable Ganon is against juggling, but are you really going to risk a 23% Down-Air to the face, along with possible Flame Choke tech-chase afterwards for even more damage (or even an early % kill) if you're not absolutely sure you're going to succeed in your juggling? You can do literally anything to Captain Falcon and have virtually no fear whatsoever because Falcon has absolutely NOTHING that forces you to respect him. Falcon's moves that do cause you to think twice either have no follow-up capability (think Utilt) or they have really awkard timings and spacings that drastically reduce their usefulness (Dair AND THAT KNEE!).

With Falcon, you either have an extremely mobile character with ABYSMAL space control or you have a fimrly planted character with decent space control. Use his mobility and you're completely at the mercy of someone who knows how to control his space; use his space control and you get zoned hard by characters who have better tools than Falcon.

 

[Conviction]

You lost all creditibly when youj said aib...do you even go to tournies? If you get beat by waddle whoring you should feel bad.

Hard to kill? That's why I kill him at 110.

More later, back to cooking.

 

[Juushichi]

Ftilt is nothing.

Mario gets in and juggles DDD almost for free. And idk, it's rare for me to get gimped by DDD and that even when I play Sheik, who has a much worse recovery than Mario.

Uptilt? You want to keep trying to hit me with it and stale it so your other options are what? Bair? DDD gets his damage on Mario because of the chain grab and what he can do on the ledge after the chain grab. That's pretty much it.

Without the threat of the chain grab, what's there for me not to treat you like a DK with much worse kill options?

Bair, ftilt, dtilt and utilt. That isn't going to help you for very long. Meanwhile when I eventually get in, I can do anything I want just about.

@Shaya.

Yes, DDD beats Sheik +1 because of her relatively limited onstage kill options. Offstage, it's not as much of a factor. Keep swatting off D3 until he has to up-b then kill him. With a low jump count, it seems kinda hard for him. But I think D3 has something of an advantage onstage.

It's weird and really a momentum-based MU. It's really fun actually.