Official BBR Tier List v5

[Ishiey]

When MK makes up, what is it, like around 40% of the relevant (read: placing top-16 or so) metagame? I'd say your MU with him is really important. There are more MKs around than there are Snakes, Diddys, and Falcos combined, so technically... in terms of how relevant it is to the metagame, going -3 with MK and -1 with Snake/Diddy Falco is worse than the opposite. If that makes sense (not saying that I completely agree with this perspective, just throwing it out there)

 

[Tesh]

Captain Falcon is most certainly not a gap above Ganondorf. You can go on all dai about how Ganon can kill people in seven different ways but it doesn't cover how bad he is, and while I'm not saying that Ganon's power is going to make him rise any time soon, you sure as ever are going to respect him. You can theorycraft all you want about how vulnerable Ganon is against juggling, but are you really going to risk a 23% Down-Air to the face, along with possible Flame Choke tech-chase afterwards for even more damage (or even an early % kill) if you're not absolutely sure you're going to succeed in your juggling? You can do literally anything to Captain Falcon and have virtually no fear whatsoever because Falcon has absolutely NOTHING that forces you to respect him. Falcon's moves that do cause you to think twice either have no follow-up capability (think Utilt) or they have really awkard timings and spacings that drastically reduce their usefulness (Dair AND THAT KNEE!).

With Falcon, you either have an extremely mobile character with ABYSMAL space control or you have a fimrly planted character with decent space control. Use his mobility and you're completely at the mercy of someone who knows how to control his space; use his space control and you get zoned hard by characters who have better tools than Falcon.

I think you are vastly underestimating mobility here. Ganon is VERY slow in attack speed and movement. Falcon is scarier because he can GET TO YOU. He can threaten your shield because it doesn't take 10 years for him to get within grab range. You can't autowin against his recovery just by jumping into it. He is nearly as heavy as heavy as Ganon for whats it worth (ganon lives a little longer, but unless he was sent straight up he is easily gimped if sent ALMOST far enough to die) and has more viable killing options in most situations. He actually has some non **** matchups above low tier as well.

Power is nice, but it doesn't mean much if it can't land.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

IDK falcon just seems like a faster ganon to me.. lol what legit approaches does he have? dash grab?

 

[Alphicans]

FALCON KICK!!!!!!!!!

caps

 

[Seagull Joe]

ddd would still beat mario, even without the cg; he just beats him out, 16% is just fine to beat him. ddd/luigi is near even without the infinite, and there's no way mario does better than luigi.

if ddd couldn't chaingrab, he would lose to certain characters HARD; dk, ike, wario, maybe even wolf. but he definitely would still beat mario, for sure

also i shouldn't be a judge as to how good ddd is or isn't, because i'm told i underrate him way too much so i'll reserve judgement

Zak, I don't think Wolf would lose to D3 if cg was removed. I think then it'd be even. D3 still is a pain in the *** to kill and 16% from Bthrow is still ********. Also, Dtilt out of dthrow would still be guaranteed.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Utilt is good, but this only seems dangerous if you are above DDD or right on top of him. If you are trying to keep your opponent at a ftilt distance the whole stock or right in front of you for a grab, it seems difficult to ever land an Utilt (not to mention people want to play safe around DDD to avoid grabs). Apart from that, what can DDD reliably kill with unless he gets to over 150%?

D3s entire character design is a catch 22 based on 50-50 situations

Thing you gotta realise is that staying at a f tilts distance away for your character, is still most likely inside his grab range. so playing safe from the up tilt leads to you getting grab since most people cant safely attack him and avoid going in to his grab range at the same time.

And then the way most people avoid his grab range is by mixing up their landings and try to cross him up so that he grabs the wrong way. but the only way you can do that is by getting close enough to him to get blown up by up tilt. and killing you at 110% with up tilt and killing you at 140% with bair really doesnt matter to a character that (based on stage positioning.) can net 40% from one grab. Espeically when that grab pretty much makes ALL his other moves fresh.

<----- right here not playing D3 and when I do not being a douche and infiniting people in friendlies lol

I guess I never really tried more than 3 regrabs cause they are always friendlies.

You are weak.

I go 100% in every match. Ive timed out Jigglypuffs in friendly sets before. You go hard or you go home

 

[Tesh]

IDK falcon just seems like a faster ganon to me.. lol what legit approaches does he have? dash grab?

You are looking for legit approaches when we are discussing bottom tier? When dealing with organizing low tier, you gotta just say "at least".

Like "at least falcon can recover over the ledge when edgehogged".
"at least falcon has a close range game with his jab and tilts"
"at least falcon can catch up to campy characters even if he cant do much when he gets there"
"at least falcon isn't HORRIBLY crippled by RCO lag"

 

[Tarmogoyf]

@Tarm: Your argument is bad. Difference between Snake's air game and ground game is. Snake has does have more mobility and options on the ground and can control the stage. He can't do that in the air and why be scared? Are you scared to hit every character who has a "plausible" way of getting down?

Snake gets juggled hard lol, doesn't make him a bad character but he just does. If Marth throws out his Dair it can "stop reckless juggling". Again why be scared where you can just limit Snake's options in the air. That's why Snake doesn't like being above a lot of characters.

Looool

You call my argument bad, yet say marths dair stops juggling.

I can't stop laughing at this. Show me a marth's dair countering juggling even 10% as much as snakes bair.

Seriously, every character without multiple double jumps/an air stalling move (fox shine, peach float. ect) is limited while having an opponent under them.

And I'm not scared of hitting my opponent, I am however respectful of the fact that I can easily die at 90 if I mess up.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont think you interpretted his post correctly?

 

[Conviction]

Looool

You call my argument bad, yet say marths dair stops juggling.

I can't stop laughing at this. Show me a marth's dair countering juggling even 10% as much as snakes bair.

Seriously, every character without multiple double jumps/an air stalling move (fox shine, peach float. ect) is limited while having an opponent under them.

And I'm not scared of hitting my opponent, I am however respectful of the fact that I can easily die at 90 if I mess up.

No KID let him laugh at his stupidity longer, so I can laugh him for not seeing the sarcasticness of it. No duh crackbaby Marth's Dair doesn't save him. I was using your fail logic back at you. Reading comprehension 101.

-______________________________________-

EDIT: When you are done laughing yourself and start to feel stupid like the post quoted, mind actually addressing a point?

 

[Tagxy]

Since other people were doing one, heres something tentative

Top Tier
S:
A:

High Tier
B: (//)

Upper Tier
C:
D: [///]

Middle Tier
E:
F:

Low Tier
G:
H: [//]

Bottom Tier
I:

stole Johns format. Parenthesis are essentially identical imo, and braces i wasnt sure but put them in some order. I could see olimar at bottom of A and Fox at bottom of C.

 

[Browny]

I like

buuuuuut I just cant agree with Sonic sharing a tier with ness, while being one below pit. Drop pit down to E, swap ness with Yoshi.

maybe.

 

[Steam]

yeah I'd say sonic is a bit too low on that list... otherwise it's probably fine.

 

[-LzR-]

I like the idea of Samus, Link and Puff being tied. It's really hard to reliably say who is better or worse.
And yes, Puff > Falcon.

But is Olimar really that good? Like he has crazy and safe moves, whistle armor stuff and a godly grab, but he has weaknesses worse than Pikas or Marths, but I guess it's "OMG BROOD FTW".

 

[Steam]

I like the idea of Samus, Link and Puff being tied. It's really hard to reliably say who is better or worse.
And yes, Puff > Falcon.

But is Olimar really that good? Like he has crazy and safe moves, whistle armor stuff and a godly grab, but he has weaknesses worse than Pikas or Marths, but I guess it's "OMG BROOD FTW".

plenty of olimars have been doing a looot of work. way more than anyone else around him :/

 

[Psychoace]

IDK falcon just seems like a faster ganon to me.. lol what legit approaches does he have? dash grab?

You'd be surprised how well sliding shield grab works, pivot grabbing works even better. auto canceled bair is ok in certain situations. Falcon kick should probably never be used, but I do it to mks tornado all the time. You are correct though he does have ****ty approaches and terrible priority which is what cripples him so badly, but we have up air lol. And playing on platforms helps our approaching handicap a lot of the time.

Captain Falcon is most certainly not a gap above Ganondorf. You can go on all dai about how Ganon can kill people in seven different ways but it doesn't cover how bad he is, and while I'm not saying that Ganon's power is going to make him rise any time soon, you sure as ever are going to respect him. You can theorycraft all you want about how vulnerable Ganon is against juggling, but are you really going to risk a 23% Down-Air to the face, along with possible Flame Choke tech-chase afterwards for even more damage (or even an early % kill) if you're not absolutely sure you're going to succeed in your juggling? You can do literally anything to Captain Falcon and have virtually no fear whatsoever because Falcon has absolutely NOTHING that forces you to respect him. Falcon's moves that do cause you to think twice either have no follow-up capability (think Utilt) or they have really awkard timings and spacings that drastically reduce their usefulness (Dair AND THAT KNEE!).

Say you're juggling falcon and you miss.. what can we hit you with and make you regret it?
Depending on the character..
single hit nair -> jab -> grab -> follow up (typically a grab release)
single hit nair -> jab -> grab -> grab release knee = 26-28%
oooor the teddy bear combo...(which opens a whole new world into footstool combos) I hate combo names.

If you don't fear the knee something is wrong with you...

 

[Tagxy]

With olimars recent success from a variety of players Id almost be tempted to put him above falco if it werent for larry as well as his consistent ability to outplace rich.

Also I think sonic, ike, ness, and yoshi are the hardest characters to place on the tier list. Theyve all done amazing things in the last 9 months but are among the least consistent of all characters, even among their star players. They could be in about 5-10 different spots without being outrageously misplaced.

Taking a second look for Sonic specifically Id probably put him below DK.

And Ive never quite understood why Ness is so low. He suffers some unfortunate traits that hand him horrid MUs, but nothing worse than what Fox, Wolf, or DK have to deal with. His recovery is meh but not horrid. Otherwise he has some ok range, great killing ability, good damage racking, and solid results from both FOW and Shaky.

 

[DMG]

a

Olimar isn't that good. Zelda doesn't belong with Ganon. Snake... eh tbh Diddy will replace him as #2.

With olimars recent success from a variety of players Id almost be tempted to put him above falco if it werent for larry as well as his consistent ability to outplace rich.

Also I think sonic, ike, ness, and yoshi are the hardest characters to place on the tier list. Theyve all done amazing things in the last 9 months but are among the least consistent of all characters, even among their star players. They could be in about 5-10 different spots without being outrageously misplaced.

Taking a second look for Sonic specifically Id probably put him below DK.

And Ive never quite understood why Ness is so low. He suffers some unfortunate traits that hand him horrid MUs, but nothing worse than what Fox, Wolf, or DK have to deal with. His recovery is meh but not horrid. Otherwise he has some ok range, great killing ability, good damage racking, and solid results from both FOW and Shaky.

Well actually, wouldn't having multiple players placing well be better than a character being hard to play where they only have 1 "star" player? There are more people ****** with Olimar than Falco, would be hard to justify placing Falco higher unless you dipped away from results to look at the characters.

Ness is low because he suffers from bad qualities and his good ones can't make up for it enough. Fox Wolf etc have noticeable traits they can abuse to offset their disadvantages a bit. Ness has some stuff, but nothing on that level. There's no "Well you can laser camp with Ness" or "you can abuse invincibility frames on Shine to get out of tough spots" or "you can do this to stall your recovery/landing and mix things up" etc. There's just "Well lets Fair, Nair, and Dair if they approach, and dash grab if we have to approach" lol.

 

[BSP]

Sonic is not an entire tier behind those characters grouped last in D on that list. Otherwise, looks good.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

nothing of value

 

[DMG]

HUEHUEHUE

MARTH IS BAD ZSS IS GOOD WARIO SUCKS MK DA BESS

There I made a post for you.

 

[Shaya]

I think Marth will be 3rd next tier list.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

HUEHUEHUE

MARTH IS BAD ZSS IS GOOD WARIO SUCKS MK DA BESS

There I made a post for you.

Someone hasn't read my posts. I agree Wario sucks though!

 

[Judo777]

Taxby you think Yoshi is above Sheik? Idk about that also I think Diddy is above Snake.

 

[Clai]

I think you are vastly underestimating mobility here. Ganon is VERY slow in attack speed and movement. Falcon is scarier because he can GET TO YOU. He can threaten your shield because it doesn't take 10 years for him to get within grab range.

As someone provided a better response I will address it later on, but I want to see how you respond to this anyhow. Falcon gets to you because he's fast. Great. BUT WHAT DOES HE DO ONCE HE'S THERE?

You can't autowin against his recovery just by jumping into it.

Firstly, the whole 'jumping into Ganon's recovery and hitting him" is percentage-based, so you don't always get to hit Ganon in the first place. Secondly, it's not like the Ganon player is going to see this happening and employ every singe DI trick there is to make sure he's sent at an angle that he will comfortably survive. Thirdly, not many characters can even hit Ganon with a move that is worth anything in terms of gimping Ganon, and most of the characters that do have no business jumping into his recovery when they can just gimp him anyway and save the damage (like MK). Lastly, wall jump tech and curbstomp > Falcon's recovery

and has more viable killing options in most situations.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Ignoring the fact that the vast majority of Ganon's moveset can be considered a viable killing option, Falcon's killing options are neutered by his own character design. Falcon simply can't use a good number of moves in most situation because they can easily be seen and reacted to or have such awkward spacings and timings that they drastically cut the amount of situations that Falcon can reliably use them.

He actually has some non **** matchups above low tier as well.

Because that's translated so well in Falcon's boisterous tournament results... oh wait. Falcon gets manslaughtered by Metaknight (grab releases mean nothing if MK's Uair stringing you and sending you offstage to die with Aerial Shuttle Loop) and grabbed by the Ice Climbers. In the matchups that matter, there is nothing that suggests that Falcon should be a tier above Ganon, and tournament results have only supported this.

"at least falcon can recover over the ledge when edgehogged".

Why are you trying to edgehog Falcon? All you need to do is keep hitting him offstage, just don't jump into Falcon's grab like an idiot and you can harass him all you want.

"at least falcon has a close range game with his jab and jab"

Falcon's fastest tilt is 1 frame faster than Ganon's fastest tilt (Falcon's angled F-tilt comes out on frame 9 and is -20 on block, Ganon's Dtilt comes out on frame 10 and is -21 on block), so no, Falcon's tilts do not contribute to a 'close-range game.' Falcon's jab and grab range is balls, so anyone with a good tilt that outranges Falcon's jab is going to be giving Falcon just as many problems as it would Ganon.

"at least falcon can catch up to campy characters even if he cant do much when he gets there"

Unless we're playing on RC or something, Ganondorf is going to find a way to engage the opponent. Patience is the key (not to mention that as Falcon's foxtrot is beyond awful, he can't even make good use of his speed without risking getting hit by a projectile before he can shield it).

"at least falcon isn't HORRIBLY crippled by RCO lag"

Unlike Falcon, Ganondorf actually does a somewhat decent job at planking. Ganon's Uair and short mid-air jump height gives him enough protection that he can decide when to return to the stage. If the opponent is abusing Ganon's RCO lag, Ganon's doing something wrong.

You'd be surprised how well sliding shield grab works, pivot grabbing works even better. auto canceled bair is ok in certain situations. Falcon kick should probably never be used, but I do it to mks tornado all the time. You are correct though he does have ****ty approaches and terrible priority which is what cripples him so badly, but we have up air lol. And playing on platforms helps our approaching handicap a lot of the time.

Dat 15 frame pivot grab with the overblown theatrics, yeah dat pivot grab.

Ganon has a really freaking good U-air and platforms help Ganon immensely as well. Ganondorf LOVES Battlefield (or at least I do, Ganon's space control is so tight on Battlefield, I love it).

Say you're juggling falcon and you miss.. what can we hit you with and make you regret it?
Depending on the character..
single hit nair -> jab -> grab -> follow up (typically a grab release)
single hit nair -> jab -> grab -> grab release knee = 26-28%
oooor the teddy bear combo...(which opens a whole new world into footstool combos) I hate combo names.

Problem with that is: everything you said relies on single hit nair, which basically reduces that option to whenever Falcon is really close to the ground. Opponents should already know not to mess with Falcon when he's close to the ground because of that jab, I'm talking about full-on aerial combat like if you threw Falcon upwards. Take away Falcon's ground options and fighting Falcon becomes so much easier.

If you don't fear the knee something is wrong with you...

Outside Wario, who can Falcon actually grab-release knee? I can't find any post that fully deals with Falcon's grab-release advantages, so if you could help me out with the actual data for that, I would appreciate it.

And with Falcon's 1-frame sweetspot window, awful space control due to how quickly he accelerates, and inability to follow-up into the move (unless if grab-release is actually legit), no I don't fear the knee. This ain't Melee, son.

 

[z00ted]

Honestly, I would rather have Ganon's fair than Falcon's knee.

Ganon > Faclon

 

[DMG]

That statement ENTIRELY hinges on the idea that you also wouldn't experience that horrid landing lag with his Fair even when the move looks done.

 

[smashkng]

But Ganon's Fair also has a lot more range including a hitbox above him and has a far better hitbox than Falcon's Fair. The sourspot does 15 % compared to 4% damage of Falcon's sourspotted Fair and is much easier to sweetspot in general. The landing lag isn't that problematic if you know when to use it. It also does have a quite heavy shield push that helps compensate the landing lag when spaced properly and can definitely bait grabs while Ganon is trying to land.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

EDIT: When you are done laughing yourself and start to feel stupid like the post quoted, mind actually addressing a point?

duuuuurr

Seriously, every character without multiple double jumps/an air stalling move (fox shine, peach float. ect) is limited while having an opponent under them.

Mind explaining to me why snake is worse than average? Or is his bair really just bad at everything?

Go watch A good snake play smash lol. They Bair more than airdodge in the air, because it's easily his best option to avoid juggles.

snake isn't broken in the air, but he's not anywhere near as bad as many people say he is. He isn't link lol

 

[Conviction]

How about I just keep juggling the pr snake in my state and you keep complaining until you actually learn to play against him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ten bucks that that Snake player is garbage

 

[Conviction]

10 bucks that snake almost beat MVD and took 9th at our last regional.

 

[Laem]

MVD was sandbagging
Your region is Georgia.

You've had some good posts as well tho iblis so dont worry about it

 

[Conviction]

The regional consisted of al,fl, and nc. I'm pretty sure that counts and idk why he is calling him garbage when he could beat him.

Gheb you area of expertise is japan, we are talking about the atl south, you nothing about the subject the matter. Stay where you know things best or at least look up stuff before you post stupidly. I usually enjoy your post too. Stay quiet.

Brb annoying co-workers.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No, he gets juggled by you. He's probably bad.

 

[Meru.]

That statement ENTIRELY hinges on the idea that you also wouldn't experience that horrid landing lag with his Fair even when the move looks done.

At least it can punish something.

****, I got hit by Ganon's Fair, WOW I'M DEAD?!?!
Yes, I got hit by Falcon's sourspotted Knee, now I can Nair him back!

 

[da K.I.D.]

How about I just keep juggling the pr snake in my state and you keep complaining until you actually learn to play against him.

dont you still lose to him? if it were that easy to juggle him, he wouldnt win.

Ive seen matches where a snake is knocked offstage at 40% and doesnt touch the ground again until 150%, 20 seconds later only to bair the guy at 90 and kill him on the way down.

10 bucks that snake almost beat MVD and took 9th at our last regional.

I almost beat fatal and bizkit at pound, do you know how much that means to everybody else? absolutely nothing. almost is worthless. p.s. top 8 or idgaf

MVD was sandbagging
Your region is Georgia.

You've had some good posts as well tho iblis so dont worry about it

lol on blast.

Gheb you area of expertise is japan, we are talking about the atl south, you nothing about the subject the matter. Stay where you know things best or at least look up stuff before you post stupidly. I usually enjoy your post too. Stay quiet.

GOT EM

No, he gets juggled by you. He's probably bad.

LOL EXPOSED.

 

[Alphicans]

Tarm, whenever I see top level snakes play I see them get juggled to **** and then get a few ftilts to even it up. This is pretty much every game I play vs snake and every game I watch vs snake.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Whenever I watch good people play smash, its usually one person getting a hit and then getting a lot of momentum, and then the other person getting a lot of momentum.

yea, because that only applys to snake...

 

[Conviction]

Gheb do you even know what a venue looks like? Dog stop talking like you go tournies or actually play the game and do some worthwhile, I told you what you are good at. Stick to it.