Official BBR Tier List v5

[~ Gheb ~]

lol @ me not going to tourneys.

 

[Alphicans]

Whenever I watch good people play smash, its usually one person getting a hit and then getting a lot of momentum, and then the other person getting a lot of momentum.

yea, because that only applys to snake...

Umm what?

His whole point is that good snakes don't get juggled. Or at least not worse than a lot of characters, which is untrue based on tons of videos out there.

Sarcastic posts that don't even know what the discussion is about aren't funny.

 

[da K.I.D.]

point is snake gets juggled the same as every other character in the game. probably less so since fast fall bair is really good, and he can pull a 1 frame bomb to explode you and him, which is a trade that works in his favor about 85% of the time. like i said, his airgame is poloarising. If you guess right the punish is usually either really easy or really painful, but if you guess wrong, you get hurt far worse than you do for misreading other characters.

this is the second time you couldnt get what I was saying, Ill stop giving you the benefit of the doubt and just spoodfeed you everything now.

 

[phi1ny3]

Whenever I watch good people play smash, its usually one person getting a hit and then getting a lot of momentum, and then the other person getting a lot of momentum.

yea, because that only applys to snake...

Strange, I usually see a good chip exchange at top play, unless they're really momentum based like Lucario or Snake.

 

[Mr-R]

lol @ me not going to tourneys.

lol indeed

 

[Conviction]

I basically asked if you do or not. Lol @ you not answering simple question.

KID, ill have to see if I stlll lose to him, last time I played his snake was the last time I played kadaj so that's basically going on a month. Ill make sure to record the vids next time we play.

 

[Alphicans]

point is snake gets juggled the same as every other character in the game. probably less so since fast fall bair is really good, and he can pull a 1 frame bomb to explode you and him, which is a trade that works in his favor about 85% of the time. like i said, his airgame is poloarising. If you guess right the punish is usually either really easy or really painful, but if you guess wrong, you get hurt far worse than you do for misreading other characters.

this is the second time you couldnt get what I was saying, Ill stop giving you the benefit of the doubt and just spoodfeed you everything now.

I understood your point, but I disagree with snake getting juggled just the same as everyone else. In the high tier I can't think of anyone getting juggled as badly as snake except for nana and sometimes DDD. Everyone else has superior air mobility and way better aerials to deal with juggling.

 

[Conviction]

What he said, snake is going to take a nice amount of percent before he comes back down in comparison to others.

 

[smashkng]

Snake is one of the easiest characters to juggle in the game. None of his aerials besides maybe last hit of his Nair when it's autocanceled are safe on shield. I've seen Snakes getting their Bair shield grabbed even when it was perfectly spaced and retreated by MK, which then puts Snake again in the air. His fast fall doesn't help that much when his change of sides in the air is one of the worst in the game.
That makes his landing extremely predictable. His wavebounce helps him slightly but Snake is very easily juggled in the air because of his extremely limited options in the air which are all punishable unless there is Mine or something in the ground, making it much easier to read his landing and take advantage of him in the air compared to many characters in the cast, especially with characters who have very fast aerials like Marth and MK.

And da KID, you can still space your aerials to hit Snake without blowing up his Grenade while he attempts to Grenade wavebounce and it isn't that hard to do that.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I had like 100 quotes, but it isn't worth it.

Seriously, don't just go "lolololol snake gets juggled", watch which characters juggle him.

It's mostly Marths and MKs and GaWs, and they juggle everybody

Smashkng, you're talking about him landing, which is different (and yes, incredibly poor)

 

[smashkng]

That's what I do Tarmo. Isn't punishing a landing considered as juggling if it sends Snake back to the air? And even low tiers like Falcon and even Ganon can juggle Snake with their fast Uairs. And I've done that on Snakes.

 

[Conviction]

That's what I do Tarmo. Isn't punishing a landing considered as juggling if it sends Snake back to the air? And even low tiers like Falcon and even Ganon can juggle Snake with their fast Uairs. And I've done that on Snakes.

Yeah I thought long as you put them back in the air, landing or not, was juggling.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

It's what you should do lol.

I'm arguing against jump a bunch and Uair, not against staying on the ground and reacting.

Iblis ninja: Yes, but the point is, you're not really going after him in the air, when it's risky for you as well as him, but when he lands, because you're not at as much risk

 

[Conviction]

Yeah then we've basically been talking about the same thing...lol but only difference is I think it's not a bad bet to challenge Snake in the air when he is closer to the ground.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why are people still trying to juggle Snake? Just wait until he uses his jumps, shield, and punish him on landing, he has nothing.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Yeah then we've basically been talking about the same thing...lol but only difference is I think it's not a bad bet to challenge Snake in the air when he is closer to the ground.

In that case, we agree. It's fine when he can keep his options open, but not when he has to land, since he can't do anything there.

 

[z00ted]

Why are people still trying to juggle Snake? Just wait until he uses his jumps, shield, and punish him on landing, he has nothing.

wow, that was a really dumb post.

 

[Masky]

Why are people still trying to juggle Snake? Just wait until he uses his jumps, shield, and punish him on landing, he has nothing.

...what? 0 landing frames when holding a grenade? last-possible-second bair?

 

[Laem]

^ those two options don't actually > shield tho
the one that does is wavebounce away

 

[Tagxy]

Sonic is not an entire tier behind those characters grouped last in D on that list. Otherwise, looks good.

Yeah Id already change a few things, I just wanted to get a feel for opinions.

Taxby you think Yoshi is above Sheik? Idk about that also I think Diddy is above Snake.

Theyre pretty close. I put yoshi ahead because he doesnt have to deal with cgs and death MUs. I think if anyone were going to fall below sheik itd be luigi.

Olimar isn't that good. Zelda doesn't belong with Ganon. Snake... eh tbh Diddy will replace him as #2.

I didnt want to get into the diddy > snake thing and went with the safe option. Whoever winds up second will essentially determine of results or theorycraft are more important. Ganon could probably be in his own rank again...its just hard to do it because he has not horrid results. I'd want an opinion from Ganon mains on this. As for oli, hes been performing at the level of the top 4. The only reason I didnt put him up there is because he hasnt won a national. Why would he not be that good?

Well actually, wouldn't having multiple players placing well be better than a character being hard to play where they only have 1 "star" player? There are more people ****** with Olimar than Falco, would be hard to justify placing Falco higher unless you dipped away from results to look at the characters.

I think if you have one star player thats performing consistently better than multiple decent players, you need to look at that and ask "why" since the results are trying to tell you something or can at least confirm a theory. But as I mentioned if there were no results from Larry and we simply went off of nothing tangible itd be a farfetched assumption.

Ness is low because he suffers from bad qualities and his good ones can't make up for it enough. Fox Wolf etc have noticeable traits they can abuse to offset their disadvantages a bit. Ness has some stuff, but nothing on that level. There's no "Well you can laser camp with Ness" or "you can abuse invincibility frames on Shine to get out of tough spots" or "you can do this to stall your recovery/landing and mix things up" etc. There's just "Well lets Fair, Nair, and Dair if they approach, and dash grab if we have to approach" lol.

If you have horrid MUs like ness, fox, DK, or wolf you essentially give those up as lost causes. Having a -3 over a -4 shouldnt matter in terms of viability; Ness shouldnt be beating marth, fox shouldnt be beating pika, DK shouldnt be beating DDD etc. Not that I think ness is as good as these characters, but the different between them is too large.

 

[smashkng]

You can still punish the wavebounce by just grabbing and throwing him into the air again. Snake CAN land but his landing options are so limited that you can easily read his landing and punish it for a lot of damage before he can safely land to the ground. Also the air dodge or Bair is usually very easy to see coming from him when you're in the air in the air as well but below him and you definitely bait those options and punish them.

 

[Laem]

Because shielding and moving at the same time is totally possible

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

He has better options to combat juggling than he does when landing, it's fact.

 

[Steam]

He has better options to combat juggling than he does when landing, it's fact.

This. snake has good fast aerials. and all of them have landing lag you could punish with a charged smash.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

He has better options to combat juggling than he does when landing, it's fact.

.............
I've been arguing this for like 2 days lol

 

[Matador]

I always figured that punishing landings was included in the definition of juggling in Brawl, especially since baiting out unsafe options is a big part of juggling.

Shouldn't baiting out an unsafe landing be included?

 

[Tesh]

Not if you want to win an argument in this thread.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I always figured that punishing landings was included in the definition of juggling in Brawl, especially since baiting out unsafe options is a big part of juggling.

Shouldn't baiting out an unsafe landing be included?

Precisely. The threat of an air followup often can force the opponent to pick options that are easy to landtrap. Landtrapping and air followups go hand in hand when juggling since they must be mixed together to be most effective.

 

[Exceladon City]

Precisely. The threat of an air followup often can force the opponent to pick options that are easy to landtrap. Landtrapping and air followups go hand in hand when juggling since they must be mixed together to be most effective.

Ladies and gents, that was A2ZOMG and his segment "Stating The Obvious."

 

[Conviction]

But it was well needed lol

 

[Spelt]

In any other fighting game that definition of juggling goes without saying...

 

[Alphicans]

I've been arguing with someone that doesn't think punishing a landing is juggling?

Goddamn.

 

[Nike.]

and

Who's the better character?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ladies and gents, that was A2ZOMG and his segment "Stating The Obvious."

It should be obvious to everyone, but quite frankly isn't.

Like a lot of things to be honest. U-air out of shield is still not intuitive for most players. Neither is a solid understanding of platform pressure and why it fails for most characters on a stage like Brinstar. But those I reserve for a different time and place.

G&W has a better approach, better kill setups, and a better recovery than Lucario. These especially make him clearly better against Metaknight, the most commonly used character in the game. Lucario also can't really do much against DDD, while G&W goes about even in that matchup.

 

[Browny]

What sort of question is that, theres countless definitions of 'better' rofl.

Lucario has (had) more SOLO mains consistantly placing high.

Thats all I'll say

 

[Nike.]

Okay, smart *** lol

Who should be higher on the next Tier List?

 

[A2ZOMG]

What sort of question is that, theres countless definitions of 'better' rofl.

Lucario has (had) more SOLO mains consistantly placing high.

Thats all I'll say

There is only one definition of better in competition. What works more efficiently.

I don't give a **** what you say happens in tournament if you're not here to discuss tools logically. People **** up in tournament and still don't know what they're doing. I'm not here to discuss suboptimal playstyles. You shouldn't be either.

And the facts are, G&W has better tools in matchups that matter. He can set up a kill off a grab safely. He is one of few characters in the game that can edgeguard Metaknight with some level of consistency. And he rarely has to worry about getting gimped.

And DDD is another easy example where G&W is both better at poking DDD and surviving than Lucario. And he's not particularly uncommon in tournament.

 

[Ripple]

G&W gets bodied by marth.

Lucario gets bodies by D3.

who is more common is tournament? who is a higher threat in the metagame?

G&W may do better against MK but he can't do **** vs. snake. while lucario can do something do both of them

 

[Alphicans]

GaW is even with snake... -1 at the worst.

 

[Dakpo]

Peach should be lower then Wolf. He wrecks her...

I beat Nicole and King Beef in MM's and Kyon in pools at Pound 5. I beat Excel Zero at Pound 4 . I've also beaten SSR in every tourney set we've played.

I love playing Peach's .

Thats as bad as inui logic