Official BBR Tier List v5

[Ripple]

GaW is even with snake... -1 at the worst.

I don't believe this for a second

 

[MJG]

GaW is even with snake... -1 at the worst.

No. You are delusional.

 

[DMG]

I didnt want to get into the diddy > snake thing and went with the safe option. Whoever winds up second will essentially determine of results or theorycraft are more important. Ganon could probably be in his own rank again...its just hard to do it because he has not horrid results. I'd want an opinion from Ganon mains on this. As for oli, hes been performing at the level of the top 4. The only reason I didnt put him up there is because he hasnt won a national. Why would he not be that good?

I think if you have one star player thats performing consistently better than multiple decent players, you need to look at that and ask "why" since the results are trying to tell you something or can at least confirm a theory. But as I mentioned if there were no results from Larry and we simply went off of nothing tangible itd be a farfetched assumption.

If you have horrid MUs like ness, fox, DK, or wolf you essentially give those up as lost causes. Having a -3 over a -4 shouldnt matter in terms of viability; Ness shouldnt be beating marth, fox shouldnt be beating pika, DK shouldnt be beating DDD etc. Not that I think ness is as good as these characters, but the different between them is too large.

Well actually Diddy vs Snake would tip towards Diddy on both levels prob. Going off theoretical/potential, Diddy obv looks better. Results wise, I haven't looked at everything but if we're including some MLG events in all of this then Diddy pulls ahead for sure.

It should be obvious to everyone, but quite frankly isn't.

Like a lot of things to be honest. U-air out of shield is still not intuitive for most players. Neither is a solid understanding of platform pressure and why it fails for most characters on a stage like Brinstar. But those I reserve for a different time and place.

G&W has a better approach, better kill setups, and a better recovery than Lucario. These especially make him clearly better against Metaknight, the most commonly used character in the game. Lucario also can't really do much against DDD, while G&W goes about even in that matchup.

Frankly both characters are kinda bad. But which one is better? It's not that clear, you're just one of the most G^W biased people on the planet. I STILL remember the claims that G^W goes even with Marth despite no tournament evidence or top player agreement at all with that.

Here's a quick rundown of his real MU's (these are in the other character's favor, barring the ones labeled even or 5 point either direction)


MK: At best 6/4

Snake: Probably 6/4 as well, maybe 55/45

Diddy: At best 6/4

Falco: 55/45 or 6/4

IC's: 55/45 to 6/4

Marth: Haaaaaaahaaaaaaaaa

Wario: 5/5 (could swing 5 points for either character tbh)

Olimar: same as Falco/IC's

Pika: Same as Wario prob

Dedede: G^W loses overall, not as bad if the starter list is 9. Going even with Dedede assumes that he can't punish your stuff, which is only true for select stages.

Lucario: prob same as Pika or Wario. Luc might lose this one barely.

The further you go down, not much improves until you hit mid tiers. Well, besides certain MU's like Rob that he can comfortably win 6:4 ish.

There is only one definition of better in competition. What works more efficiently.

I don't give a **** what you say happens in tournament if you're not here to discuss tools logically. People **** up in tournament and still don't know what they're doing. I'm not here to discuss suboptimal playstyles. You shouldn't be either.

And the facts are, G&W has better tools in matchups that matter. He can set up a kill off a grab safely. He is one of few characters in the game that can edgeguard Metaknight with some level of consistency. And he rarely has to worry about getting gimped.

And DDD is another easy example where G&W is both better at poking DDD and surviving than Lucario. And he's not particularly uncommon in tournament.

No one cares whether G^W does better vs D3 than Lucario. No one. The MK comparison holds so much more weight that there's no point bringing up anyone outside of A tier frankly. Compare whether he does better vs Wario or Marth or Falco/etc than Lucario does.

Of course no one is here to discuss suboptimal play. We're also not here to talk about how amazing G^W is at certain MU's that... he's rarely shown to be that good in tournament. OMG MK MU IS CLOSE, MARTH MU CLOSE, BEATS FALCO, Etc. That kind of crap has to stop lol.

GaW is even with snake... -1 at the worst.

It's not completely even. Snake almost always has the easier time in the MU, even if G^W can get in.

 

[Timic83]

why the hell is pit so low

 

[archer.]

 

[z00ted]

GaW is even with snake... -1 at the worst.

 

[PZ]

wheres again?

 

[Vinnie]

Here's a quick rundown of his real MU's (these are in the other character's favor, barring the ones labeled even or 5 point either direction)

MK: 45:55

Snake: 4:6

Diddy: 4:6

Falco: 4:6

IC's: 3:7 on neutrals, 35:65 overall

Marth: 3:7

Wario: 45:55

Olimar: 4:6 - 45:55

Pika: 5:5

Dedede: 5:5

Lucario: 5:5 - 55:45

fixed .

 

[MJG]

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


pdkwejpfijrei
PKDW[FKREWKT
EKOR
HKR
TKH
5K

LOL

 

[Vinnie]

Lmao at gif.

 

[MJG]

I thought I would post this again so that people could see it.

 

[Timic83]

well why is pit so low, he seems good with good runaway and close up and kill moves, dont really see a downside

 

[Sinister Slush]

GaW is even with snake... -1 at the worst.

Not sure if serious... I must've missed the part where GaW is almost as light as Jigglypuff.

well why is pit so low, he seems good with good runaway and close up and kill moves, dont really see a downside

Pit is like Zelda, he'll camp forever and hope that you approach so he may Spam Smash attacks.
Also for a serious answer, he hasn't done anything worth noting for quite awhile. Outside of Earth, but you Know... US EU etc. Japan not counting towards our Tierlist.

 

[Kantrip]

well why is pit so low, he seems good with good runaway and close up and kill moves, dont really see a downside

he seems good with good runaway and close up and kill moves

good runaway and close up and kill moves

close up and kill moves

kill moves

All characters have smashes, and besides those and B-air Pit is lacking. His kill power could be better.

 

[Ripple]

pit has terrible kill moves, f-smash isn't strong and bair is usually seen coming. nothing else of his even comes remotely close to being called a kill move

 

[MJG]

Not sure if serious... I must've missed the part where GaW is almost as light as Jigglypuff.



Pit is like Zelda, he'll camp forever and hope that you approach so he may Spam Smash attacks.
Also for a serious answer, he hasn't done anything worth noting for quite awhile. Outside of Earth, but you Know... US EU etc. Japan not counting towards our Tierlist.

lmao...more gifs.


KEEP EM COMIN

 

[z00ted]

lol slush, I love you

 

[Chuee]

Pit is that low because he has the voice of a 10 year old girl.

 

[Vinnie]

well why is pit so low, he seems good with good runaway and close up and kill moves, dont really see a downside

Pit isn't good and gets bodied by MK and ICs, two popular tourney characters. He also gets ***** by the ruleset we use (Ledgegrab limits make pit drop a tier lol).

 

[Alphicans]

Last time I checked, every good GaW thought GaW went close to even with snake.

I think it, zac thinks it, GIMR thinks it. Not sure about vinnie though.

You guys are scrubs =D.

(Not implying I am good, but I was just throwing my name in there).

 

[Frio]

Last time I checked, every good GaW thought GaW went close to even with snake.

I think it, zac thinks it, GIMR thinks it. Not sure about vinnie though.

You guys are scrubs =D.

(Not implying I am good, but I was just throwing my name in there).

ur scaring me here bro

 

[Vinnie]

I'm DYINGGGG at all these gifs of people jumping out windows.

 

[san.]

Yeah, the gifs probably need to stop.

 

[Alphicans]

W.e lol

I just saw Vinnie's rating he said it's probably 6/4 which is roughly a -1. From what I've heard from the good GaWs, and the people on the GaW boards, the overall consensus is that GaW does not get bodied by snake. By the way lucario's make the snake match-up sound, it seems like GaW does better in that match-up as well.

 

[MJG]

6/4 is not a -1.

Am I missing something?

 

[Chuee]

6/4 is not a -1.

Am I missing something?

nope
Most MUs that were thought of as 6/4 were rated -2/+2

 

[Alphicans]

6/4 is not a -1.

Am I missing something?

6/4 is a -1. You are missing something.

Chuee.... Were you part of the creation of the match-up chart?

 

[Vinnie]

It's -1 if GW has port advantage and -2 if Snake has port advantage. Yes it does make that much of a difference.

 

[Chuee]

6/4 is a -1. You are missing something.

Chuee.... Were you part of the creation of the match-up chart?

Doesn't matter if I was part of the creation.
Pretty much every MU I looked at/heard about voting went by
0 = 50-50
1 = 55-45
2 = 6-4
3 = 65-35
4 = 80-20
somewhat like that

 

[Alphicans]

I can tell you that SOME people saw it like that, but I feel that most people thought 60/40 was a -1. There was a point in the process where it kind of became a problem, but I am pretty sure the GaW panel felt 60/40 was -1.

And if you look at that criteria, it makes no sense. The difference between -3 and -4 is very large compared to the differences between the rest.

Although I hate ratios, I felt that:

0 was roughly 50-50. It's impossible for a match-up to be 100% even (except for dittos).

1 was like 51-49 - 60-40

2 was 61-29 to 70-30

3 was 71-29 to 80-20

and 4 was anything worse than that. To me that makes a lot more sense. 4 represents a match-up that is truly unwinnable/unloseable, and 80-20 doesn't quite give the sense of that. At least in my mind.

 

[Chuee]

That was probably just the G&Ws then.
Pretty much the ratios on the chart compared to what people thought the MU ratios were before the number system go along with the list I posted.

 

[san.]

There's a period of ambiguity so you can't really directly translate the old to new MU ratios.

Have fun.

 

[Alphicans]

That was probably just the G&Ws then.
Pretty much the ratios on the chart compared to what people thought the MU ratios were before the number system go along with the list I posted.

I checked in a lot to the other panels. I can say that it wasn't just the GaWs. People in the backroom don't exactly share the same opinion as the people on character boards...

There's a period of ambiguity so you can't really directly translate the old to new MU ratios.

Have fun.

Exactly. It's an impossible task, but if I were ever asked, that's how I'd explain it to them.

 

[Chuee]

I checked in a lot to the other panels. I can say that it wasn't just the GaWs. People in the backroom don't exactly share the same opinion as the people on character boards...

Not just character boards, people from the panels too.

 

[z00ted]

this is why I HATE -1,-2-,3 etc

STUPID AS FRAKIN FRAK

 

[Alphicans]

Well how does winning 40% of matches played out of 100 translate to soft counter?

I know people say "THAT ISN'T WHAT THE RATIO MEANS!!" But then why the **** use it? There are numbers, it's a ratio.... How can we interpret that any other way?

 

[Chuee]

Well how does winning 40% of matches played out of 100 translate to soft counter?

I know people say "THAT ISN'T WHAT THE RATIO MEANS!!" But then why the **** use it? There are numbers, it's a ratio.... How can we interpret that any other way?

From what I've heard that's not how's it's interpreted but it's w/e.
Not like any of this matters to the tier list.

 

[Alphicans]

It's honestly 50/50. I hear both way of interpreting it equally, which is why we didn't use ratios, because there are way too many ways to take it, even though there shouldn't be. It should be a ratio of how many matches a characters wins out of 100. It's really beyond me how it came to anything else.

It does affect the tier list because people still think GaW gets ***** by snake, but he doesn't.

 

[Kuro~]

Snake vs GaW 6:4 game and watch. Like seriously gaw just ***** snake so hard with his nair and fair. And he can kill snake at like 70 with upsmash so it takes away his weight problem. And he can just run away the entire match with his jumps and up b and stuff.

 

[Chuee]

It does affect the tier list because people still think GaW gets ***** by snake, but he doesn't.

He doesn't get ***** but he definitely loses.

Snake vs GaW 6:4 game and watch. Like seriously gaw just ***** snake so hard with his nair and fair. And he can kill snake at like 70 with upsmash so it takes away his weight problem. And he can just run away the entire match with his jumps and up b and stuff.

not sure if serious