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Official BBR Tier List v5

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Luigi player

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But 7:3 or w/e doesn't mean "one wins 7/the other 3 out of 10 matches".

It means one character has a (really solid) advantage against the other character. Ideally that would mean he'd win all of the matches against the other one, even if it's just 55:45 (but it's of course more understandable that a MU can be overcome if a character doesn't have a big advantage over the other).

7:3 means to me that a character has a really big advantage against the other, and should almost always win (unless he messes up/get's outplayed/MU is played incorrectly/etc).
Of course both characters could win. The disadvantaged one could always win too, but the other has a pretty big advantage so losing should happen really rarely if both players are at the same level (and know how to play the MU)...
 

#HBC | J

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You got linked here? or you were already lurking?

Cause i know you didn't name search j lol.
I click this thread for the first time in months because I'm bored and strangely enough I see my name dropped by Seagull. Uncanny...

Lol name-searching.

You don't even use Lucas anymore jblondie

:phone:
Shhh. I still work there/like him. >.>
 

Alphicans

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But 7:3 or w/e doesn't mean "one wins 7/the other 3 out of 10 matches".

It means one character has a (really solid) advantage against the other character. Ideally that would mean he'd win all of the matches against the other one, even if it's just 55:45 (but it's of course more understandable that a MU can be overcome if a character doesn't have a big advantage over the other).

7:3 means to me that a character has a really big advantage against the other, and should almost always win (unless he messes up/get's outplayed/MU is played incorrectly/etc).
Of course both characters could win. The disadvantaged one could always win too, but the other has a pretty big advantage so losing should happen really rarely if both players are at the same level (and know how to play the MU)...
The first line: That's what it should mean.

You can't say it doesn't mean that, because a ratio is a ratio. The whole point of the +/-# system is so we eliminated the different interpretations of the ratios because people somehow changed it into something it shouldn't be,
 

san.

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It can be used as a relation/representational system just as numbers or words can.

I think the whole "win x games / 10" is kind of garbage because we never see that kind of thing.
 

-Jumpman-

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It can be used as a relation just as a number or word system can.
Lack of a homogenous method of determining matchups makes defining those matchups inaccurate. I'm not saying ratios cannot be used for more than one purpose, I'm saying using it for multiple purposes while defining one thing is impossible.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I think the whole "win x games / 10" is kind of garbage because we never see that kind of thing.
Whether a match-up is "+1" or "+2" also isn't the kind of thing we ever see. It's not about what we "see" though but how many levels of assumption we can eliminate.

:059:
 

ShadowLink84

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That what we ... you, were trying to fix with the new system.
And now you go trying to muddy it up again.

:054:

Do you guys even talk about this stuff as a group or do you just go around and change things on a whim and then create a little scavenger hunt for everyone else to try to figure out what the **** you're thinking...
We all sit in the back and go "hey guys, I haven't heard the boards *****ing about anything lately! Quick, lets do SOMETHING so they can whine about it!"

Yes, we're that devious.
 

GimR

GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
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GW vs. Snake is -2. It's a soft counter

I think Diddy vs. GW is -3 on most neutrals. Diddy vs. GW on Brinstar is either even or +1 for GW
 

~ Gheb ~

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Finally somebody who agrees with me on the Diddy vs GW matchup! I knew I couldn't be the only one who thinks that Diddy absolutely wrecks him.

:059:
 

Laem

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SHAYA!

GIVE US MORE TIERLIST UPDATES :D

Actually Gheb, he might not agree with you at all. There just may be discrepancy between his and your view of just how hard -3 actually is ^^
 

Supreme Dirt

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Dirt's Tier list predictions:

Metaknight moves down 37 spots due to his place on the tier list rolling over.

Ganondorf discovers an FSmash -> FSmash -> Warlock Punch 0-death that works on the entire cast. He doesn't move at all because people are set in their ways that Ganon will never be above dead last.

Luigi teams up with Mario and becomes the Mario Bros. This new deadly character would move up, but Dedede teamed up with one of his alternate costumes to become Dededededede. Also Dededededede mains learn how to Dragoon camp.

Jigglypuff discovers a way to finally DAir to rest, however every other character learns how to play against her and she moves down.

Ally is officially added to the tier list.

Mewtwo is banned from Brawl tournaments. This does not affect his placement on the tier list.

Wolf and Fox mains get over their differences and work together to become a better character. Wolfox, eldritch horror from space, takes the scene by storm.

Lucario, Fox, and Sonic mains stop being furries. As a result, Lucario and Sonic's results suffer and they move down.

Hell freezes over.

I stop typing this post because seriously wtf am I writing.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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Tier list updates?

We're currently having an ethical dilemma,
we have Sheik + Zelda as one character ('Sheida') which for the most part is just a +1 on Sheik,

but why don't we have two tier list positions for snake based on port priority?
It's like a totally different character in terms of viability.

So atm its like

1. MK
2. Snake with port priority
3. Diddy
4. Pit
5. Pikachu
6. Marth
7. Falco
8. Snake without port priority.
 

DMG

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Well, if you count planking, yeah it's a lot closer.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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lukario s brokin hes ara is so stoopid he gott ago up 2 S TIer

comeon guys jus listn 2 me on tis
..
I agree.

Oh man... a new tier list means I'll have to come up with another idea for an MS Paint pic. Hmmmm.
I want to see this, I love your MS paint pics.

ddd would still beat mario, even without the cg; he just beats him out, 16% is just fine to beat him. ddd/luigi is near even without the infinite, and there's no way mario does better than luigi.

if ddd couldn't chaingrab, he would lose to certain characters HARD; dk, ike, wario, maybe even wolf. but he definitely would still beat mario, for sure

also i shouldn't be a judge as to how good ddd is or isn't, because i'm told i underrate him way too much so i'll reserve judgement
I think your opinion is fine. :(

:gw: and :lucario:

Who's the better character?
:lucario:

It should be obvious to everyone, but quite frankly isn't.

Like a lot of things to be honest. U-air out of shield is still not intuitive for most players. Neither is a solid understanding of platform pressure and why it fails for most characters on a stage like Brinstar. But those I reserve for a different time and place.

G&W has a better approach, better kill setups, and a better recovery than Lucario. These especially make him clearly better against Metaknight, the most commonly used character in the game. Lucario also can't really do much against DDD, while G&W goes about even in that matchup.
MK vs G&W is a bad as Lucario is vs MK. G&W is better against DDD, but he worse against a lot more characters.

What sort of question is that, theres countless definitions of 'better' rofl.

Lucario has (had) more SOLO mains consistantly placing high.

Thats all I'll say

:phone:
Tis true.

Okay, smart *** lol

Who should be higher on the next Tier List?
:lucario:

There is only one definition of better in competition. What works more efficiently.

I don't give a **** what you say happens in tournament if you're not here to discuss tools logically. People **** up in tournament and still don't know what they're doing. I'm not here to discuss suboptimal playstyles. You shouldn't be either.

And the facts are, G&W has better tools in matchups that matter. He can set up a kill off a grab safely. He is one of few characters in the game that can edgeguard Metaknight with some level of consistency. And he rarely has to worry about getting gimped.

And DDD is another easy example where G&W is both better at poking DDD and surviving than Lucario. And he's not particularly uncommon in tournament.
G&W is worse against A tier based on the MU chart and what some G&Ws have said.

But not like Lucario is good against A tier either I guess.

G&W gets bodied by marth.

Lucario gets bodies by D3.

who is more common is tournament? who is a higher threat in the metagame?

G&W may do better against MK but he can't do **** vs. snake. while lucario can do something do both of them
More or less.

Well actually Diddy vs Snake would tip towards Diddy on both levels prob. Going off theoretical/potential, Diddy obv looks better. Results wise, I haven't looked at everything but if we're including some MLG events in all of this then Diddy pulls ahead for sure.



Frankly both characters are kinda bad. But which one is better? It's not that clear, you're just one of the most G^W biased people on the planet. I STILL remember the claims that G^W goes even with Marth despite no tournament evidence or top player agreement at all with that.

Here's a quick rundown of his real MU's (these are in the other character's favor, barring the ones labeled even or 5 point either direction)


MK: At best 6/4

Snake: Probably 6/4 as well, maybe 55/45

Diddy: At best 6/4

Falco: 55/45 or 6/4

IC's: 55/45 to 6/4

Marth: Haaaaaaahaaaaaaaaa

Wario: 5/5 (could swing 5 points for either character tbh)

Olimar: same as Falco/IC's

Pika: Same as Wario prob

Dedede: G^W loses overall, not as bad if the starter list is 9. Going even with Dedede assumes that he can't punish your stuff, which is only true for select stages.

Lucario: prob same as Pika or Wario. Luc might lose this one barely.

The further you go down, not much improves until you hit mid tiers. Well, besides certain MU's like Rob that he can comfortably win 6:4 ish.






No one cares whether G^W does better vs D3 than Lucario. No one. The MK comparison holds so much more weight that there's no point bringing up anyone outside of A tier frankly. Compare whether he does better vs Wario or Marth or Falco/etc than Lucario does.

Of course no one is here to discuss suboptimal play. We're also not here to talk about how amazing G^W is at certain MU's that... he's rarely shown to be that good in tournament. OMG MK MU IS CLOSE, MARTH MU CLOSE, BEATS FALCO, Etc. That kind of crap has to stop lol.





It's not completely even. Snake almost always has the easier time in the MU, even if G^W can get in.
More or less.

Lucario is even with G&W.

There's a period of ambiguity so you can't really directly translate the old to new MU ratios.

Have fun.
This is why I ignored them and just tried to base it on the number system given to us.

I can mean what I say when I say australia is the greatest nation on earth to live

doesnt mean it isnt loaded with regional bias lmao.

Also

Lmao this garbage again. 'Tools'. The ULTIMATE excuse for having absolutely no real evidence or proof to work off. Why are you so apprehensive to actually explain what you mean? Oh thats right because you dont have a clue what youre talking about, you just throw that word around, ASSUMING G&W has better tools by default with 08 logic where people get hit always by his smash attacks the instant they hit 90 and dont camp his *** off, and thats your argument. Being able to kill off a throw assumes FAR too much, and edgeguarding metaknight is never guaranteed lol.

God I hate that word tools so much. Why not look at what characters actually DO, as oppose to what you think they should be able to do, assuming the other player is incapable of camping/baiting etc rofl.
I'm not sure G&W is better against MK as well, still yeah, just saying tools is not always a good method too say why.

Lucario, Fox, and Sonic mains stop being furries.
That will never happen, especially for the Lucario's.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I took note of it but it doesn't really affect my point =/
Vinnie's GW is ****ing insane.

:059:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Whaaa, Fox mains aren't furries. I hope not at least, no one has posted anything furry related....
Have you SEEN the interactions between me and your Fox boards moderator in the social?

You can't deny the furry you main.

Granted, it has been a while since I posted in there. Wolves are more furry anyway.
 

Clai

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Sorry to bother you but, we're talking about viable characters at the moment. Please come back when your character actually matters.
A character's lack of viability is no reason for total and complete ignorance. We have opinions too, you know.

Ganon does have a really good up air, I just wanted to bring up a point about planking and falcons up air while camping a ledge we can up air and have it auto snap to the ledge this is probably also the same for ganon so maybe they are similar in the respect.
Falcon can do this, but since Falcon's double jump is a lot higher than Ganondorf's, Falcon's uair leaves him a lot more open to being shield-punished than Ganon's uair. It's Ganon's superior space control that puts him far ahead of Falcon when it comes to planking on the edge.

grab-release -> killing options
Ganon's Flame Choke -> Ftilt or Dash Attack (depending on how fresh DA is) > Falcon's grab release kills.

Seriously, though, I realize that Flame Choke isn't going to be landing against opponents who know how to protect their space very often, but even with Falcon's speed, his grab range is just awful. An opponent who's in killing range from a grab release is going to watch out for the grab and is going to be extra careful against throwing out attacks that can be lag-punished by a grab.

Another thing I find that puts Falcon a tier above ganon is his gimping game. Now while everyone is sitting there knocking sour spot knee I must assume you've never been gimped by it? While it may be easier to punish than ganon's, you should probably take into account when it will be used. Knee will be used for punishing and gimping typically offstage, so if you want to nair a sour spot knee offstage be my guest (it also combos into up air for even more of a push off stage). It destroys(I use that term loosely not as a challenge to prove me wrong or start a ****storm) falco, ganon, link, nana, olimar, wolf, ivysaur, ness, lucas, and Ike.
I realize that the sourspot knee has its uses for gimping, but honestly, any time that I do get gimped by that move, it's more because I wasn't thinking and threw out an attack that Falcon punished because I didn't respect how much space Falcon can cover. I mean, if a character is dropping and sees Falcon fly offstage and thrust out his knee, the opponent really should be on to something, heh. This is again where Falcon's acceleration and awful space control fail him, because Falcon can't go offstage, bait the knee so the opponent can make an action, and then dodge it and punish it; he really has to commit to that one action or else he's not going to have enough room to recover to the stage on his own.

Also, you basically just listed a bunch of characters that can't really defend themselves off-stage, and those that can aren't going to be affected by the knee that much (like Ike, I mean seriously, if you see Falcon go offstage and you're not fending him off with Fair that covers his whole body, you deserve to get gimped). Ganon can do a lot of the same with Uair (better known as the Tipman), Nair, and Fair. I'm not saying that Falcon's gimp game isn't better than Ganon's, because it is, but I don't think it's worthy of being an entire tier better by any stretch of the imagination.
 

Kuro~

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SL looks so gayyyyyyyyyyy. His sword isn't even there wtf. Lool.

Also lol at the past gifs, and GnW kills Snake at 70? When did this happen someone link me
It was obviously me trolling lol...i have more sense then that. I just was making fun of how people could see the matchup as even.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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You have no idea how hard it is for me not to return to being a luke main.
Don't let it bother you, it's mostly a joke even if most are furries.

Whaaa, Fox mains aren't furries. I hope not at least, no one has posted anything furry related....
...what?

Have you SEEN the interactions between me and your Fox boards moderator in the social?

You can't deny the furry you main.

Granted, it has been a while since I posted in there. Wolves are more furry anyway.
^This.
 

Clai

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This would sound better as "complete and total".
and yes you have opinions it's just that nobody truly cares about them.
All I'm doing is promoting an accurate tier list just like everyone else is. It's not like anyone outside of character mains truly cares about where Game and Watch is or where Lucario is or where Toon Link is. A character's viability is measured up by how good the character's options are and how they match up against the most common options used in tournament, not where the character places on some arbitrary list.
 
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