Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Did you really quote something I said over 3 months ago? Wolf still should be above Peach though.
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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
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Alphicans
Smash Hero
I agree that usually he loses. I would put -1 before 0. Lucarios feel it's -2. They also do worse vs MK (arguably). That was the whole point of this argument in the first place lol.
Steam
Smash Hero
what is the point in separating 75-25 and 85-15 but grouping 55-45 and 60-40 together? if that's the case lucario's only -2 should be D3. maybe snake.
I always saw it as 50-50 to 52-48 = 0
52-48 to 57-43 = -1
57-43 to 62-38 = -2
62-38 to 67-33 = -3
you get hard countered = -4
at least that's what I thought would satisfy the definitions of evenish/slight adv/moderate adv/large adv/ get *****
edit: MK is not worse than snake for lucario. he's 3rd worst.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
^ I am not sure if that's a troll post for me using 51-49 or w.e
If not, then what's the point of having such a limited range of numbers?
If not, then what's the point of having such a limited range of numbers?
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- Feb 6, 2009
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That what we ... you, were trying to fix with the new system.
And now you go trying to muddy it up again.
Do you guys even talk about this stuff as a group or do you just go around and change things on a whim and then create a little scavenger hunt for everyone else to try to figure out what the **** you're thinking...
And now you go trying to muddy it up again.
Do you guys even talk about this stuff as a group or do you just go around and change things on a whim and then create a little scavenger hunt for everyone else to try to figure out what the **** you're thinking...
Steam
Smash Hero
it's not, it's putting the numbers around 55-45/60-40 where all the matchups were grouped before. if you cut it off right at 60-40 some really close matchups can be spread apart and appear like there's a much bigger difference. this doesn't happen much when you give a cushion from each "common" ratio
and the range in numbers is limited because most of the matchups that matter are in those ranges. sure there are some unwinnable matchups that are worse than others but what's the point in separating a few matchups that are never played and are both basically unwinnable anyways?
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Lol. Rating match-ups is so mind boggling. We tried to make a system that we all agreed with and understood, but it's so much harder than you think. We did discuss it, we had a poll and everything about what we should use; we agreed with the +/- # system, but people still resorted to the ratios and things got ****ed up fast.That what we ... you, were trying to fix with the new system.
And now you go trying to muddy it up again.
Do you guys even talk about this stuff as a group or do you just go around and change things on a whim and then create a little scavenger hunt for everyone else to try to figure out what the **** you're thinking...
@steam: I just wanna say that my 70-30 is like the same thing as your 60-40 or w.e. I just view it in terms of matches winning out of 100.
Steam
Smash Hero
oh well that's lame.
also is MK GW really only 55-45 like vinnie suggested??? that seemed... really off.
also is MK GW really only 55-45 like vinnie suggested??? that seemed... really off.
D
Deleted member
Guest
The +/- # system seems to work fine to me. I'm running the Lucas boards MU thread and based it off that system. I find it a lot less confusing than the ratios.
John12346
Smash Master
GaW can Uair/USpec bounce any of MK's specials into the sky, guaranteeing a Judge or smash or something.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
The only Lucas's opinion that should be valued is Pink Fresh honestly (As far as matchups go).
Browny
Smash Hater
You didnt even try to hide your massive regional bias
D
Deleted member
Guest
FAE is definitely my favorite Lucas that I've seen in action.
And pretty much what Browny said. Pink Fresh isn't even on the boards enough to give his input anyways. rPSI, FAE, J, and others are far more helpful in giving MU knowledge.
And pretty much what Browny said. Pink Fresh isn't even on the boards enough to give his input anyways. rPSI, FAE, J, and others are far more helpful in giving MU knowledge.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Not even a little. I mean what I said. I don't care what any other Lucas says.
rPSI and J aren't at Pf's skill level. FightAdamantEevee is good, but I value Pink Fresh's opinion more (And only his opinion).
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Just like how you're the only wolf that opinions should matter amiriiiiite?
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
No. As far as matchups go, I only listen to Pink for Lucas. Every other character I listen to a lot of people.
My ideas for Wolf matchups shifts weekly to be honest based on talking with other Wolf's and other character's users.
Browny
Smash Hater
I can mean what I say when I say australia is the greatest nation on earth to live
doesnt mean it isnt loaded with regional bias lmao.
Also
God I hate that word tools so much. Why not look at what characters actually DO, as oppose to what you think they should be able to do, assuming the other player is incapable of camping/baiting etc rofl.
doesnt mean it isnt loaded with regional bias lmao.
Also
Lmao this garbage again. 'Tools'. The ULTIMATE excuse for having absolutely no real evidence or proof to work off. Why are you so apprehensive to actually explain what you mean? Oh thats right because you dont have a clue what youre talking about, you just throw that word around, ASSUMING G&W has better tools by default with 08 logic where people get hit always by his smash attacks the instant they hit 90 and dont camp his *** off, and thats your argument. Being able to kill off a throw assumes FAR too much, and edgeguarding metaknight is never guaranteed lol.
God I hate that word tools so much. Why not look at what characters actually DO, as oppose to what you think they should be able to do, assuming the other player is incapable of camping/baiting etc rofl.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
And I chime in with a
Steam
Smash Hero
if your tools are so amazing you should be winning with them. trustory.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
GaW benefits a ton from not getting CP'd stage wise by MK. That in itself allows GaW to do better vs MK compare to a ton of the cast. Aside from that, GaW has grab to smash attacks that will kill MK at 70%, and if MK gets sloppy, we will windbox his nado/sideb/upB, and then get a free smash.
MK shuts down GaW pretty hard, but when we get in/under him it's a huge deal. Nair beats dair camping easily, so MK has to stay grounded, because if he is in the air we get free damage.
TBH, idk if it's that close to even, but I am not the best GaW at the match-up, but I do think it's better than I used to think. Probably a -1.
Steam
Smash Hero
tools aside, what notable wins do GWs have against top MKs?
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
John12346
Smash Master
^
LOL for any of you who haven't seen MK's hitboxes yet, make SURE you see Nado, UpB(both variations), and GLIDE ATTACK LMAO
LOL for any of you who haven't seen MK's hitboxes yet, make SURE you see Nado, UpB(both variations), and GLIDE ATTACK LMAO
MJG
Smash Hero
I had just exited the vid..then I saw this post^
*Watches*
*Watches*
Steam
Smash Hero
lmao that glide attack hitbox
and nado hitbox is really underwhelming lol.
and nado hitbox is really underwhelming lol.
John12346
Smash Master
Here's the tl;dr
LOLOLOLOLO
LOLOLOLOLO
I swear, Atleast 95% of his hitboxes are bigger than his body... That's just complete BS.
Even comparing his Sword to those Hitboxes is like comparing A Toothpick to an Iceberg.
Even comparing his Sword to those Hitboxes is like comparing A Toothpick to an Iceberg.
Browny
Smash Hater
pretty sure all of snakes hitboxes are bigger than his body
ok except dair
ok except dair
Wait, are you seriously comparing Snake to Meta Knight?
Browny
Smash Hater
Pretty sure you just compared the two more with that ^ post than I did with mine.
Conviction
Human Nature
SL looks so gayyyyyyyyyyy. His sword isn't even there wtf. Lool.
Also lol at the past gifs, and GnW kills Snake at 70? When did this happen someone link me
Also lol at the past gifs, and GnW kills Snake at 70? When did this happen someone link me
Psychoace
Smash Champion
Another thing I find that puts Falcon a tier above ganon is his gimping game. Now while everyone is sitting there knocking sour spot knee I must assume you've never been gimped by it? While it may be easier to punish than ganon's, you should probably take into account when it will be used. Knee will be used for punishing and gimping typically offstage, so if you want to nair a sour spot knee offstage be my guest (it also combos into up air for even more of a push off stage). It destroys(I use that term loosely not as a challenge to prove me wrong or start a ****storm) falco, ganon, link, nana, olimar, wolf, ivysaur, ness, lucas, and Ike.Dat 15 frame pivot grab with the overblown theatrics, yeah dat pivot grab.
Ganon has a really freaking good U-air and platforms help Ganon immensely as well. Ganondorf LOVES Battlefield (or at least I do, Ganon's space control is so tight on Battlefield, I love it).
Pivot grab seriously isn't that bad, situational yes but what spacing tactic isn't (excluding metaknight lol). Ganon does have a really good up air, I just wanted to bring up a point about planking and falcons up air while camping a ledge we can up air and have it auto snap to the ledge this is probably also the same for ganon so maybe they are similar in the respect.
Problem with that is: everything you said relies on single hit nair, which basically reduces that option to whenever Falcon is really close to the ground. Opponents should already know not to mess with Falcon when he's close to the ground because of that jab, I'm talking about full-on aerial combat like if you threw Falcon upwards. Take away Falcon's ground options and fighting Falcon becomes so much easier.
Dair is pretty good for sending your opponent away from you and it auto cancels as well. Falling up air is also another option.
Outside Wario, who can Falcon actually grab-release knee? I can't find any post that fully deals with Falcon's grab-release advantages, so if you could help me out with the actual data for that, I would appreciate it.
lol our **** is so out of date, seeing as there are like 3 active falcons in the known universe. Grab release out of knee may be limited to Wario, Squirtle, and R.O.B. but it's not the only way we can get a guaranteed knee or kill for that matter.
full hop nair to short hop auto canceled knee works on samus and jiggz.
grab release up air kills kirby around 129% ish.
grab release to re-grab(for damage racking) to upsmash kills metaknight around 92%
grab release up air kills ivysaur around 145%
grab release up air kills sopo around 138%
A million things on wario
infinite on R.O.B and samus
dash attack re-grab on psi kids, no real follow up though.
And with Falcon's 1-frame sweetspot window, awful space control due to how quickly he accelerates, and inability to follow-up into the move (unless if grab-release is actually legit), no I don't fear the knee. This ain't Melee, son.
You are right knee isn't as bad as it used to be, but it is still a deadly punish option that will kill whatever it hits, is probably what I meant to say.
Honestly Snake >>>>>>>>>>>> g&w is that '08 ****
And the marth mu doesn't seem all that bad at all
We as a community should prolly get our **** together with them ratio's
I've seen players take 'em a lot more liberal: e.g Marth:Wario is 7:3 (from pierce iirc). This doesn't really mean unwinnable, it basically means win 7 out of 10. What's the point of all the "extreme" ratio's if we call almost every MU 6-4, but then figure even that is too much of an extreme and come up with 55:45? Is the game that balanced? Another pro of going hard with the ratios is a better vision of relative mu's, instead of everything is 6-4.
To answer steam: Vinnie > Seibrik at some tourney a while ago is all i know
(rusty kaak took a match off of Orion last weekend :d)
lastly: falcon can gr knee Ness :D
And the marth mu doesn't seem all that bad at all
We as a community should prolly get our **** together with them ratio's
I've seen players take 'em a lot more liberal: e.g Marth:Wario is 7:3 (from pierce iirc). This doesn't really mean unwinnable, it basically means win 7 out of 10. What's the point of all the "extreme" ratio's if we call almost every MU 6-4, but then figure even that is too much of an extreme and come up with 55:45? Is the game that balanced? Another pro of going hard with the ratios is a better vision of relative mu's, instead of everything is 6-4.
To answer steam: Vinnie > Seibrik at some tourney a while ago is all i know
(rusty kaak took a match off of Orion last weekend :d)
lastly: falcon can gr knee Ness :D
smashkng
Smash Lord
Ganon is also very good at gimping despite his horrible recovery. His reverse Uair (Tipman) does that work very well, especially from a ledge drop because it then become invincible and beats everything. 2nd hit Nair gimps the poorer recoveries as well because it works like a weaker Tipman. The 2nd kick also has a disjoint below his foot so fast falling with it can work very well to beat many Up bs. Then he also has his disjointed Dair when it's well timed.
The problem is that people view 7:3 as unwinnable instead of as a hard counter, so they go down and say "yeah it's a tough MU. 6:4 / 65:35"
Pierce for example was basically right with his analysis that players are too afraid of calling a MU 7:3. Wario vs Marth is basically 7:3. I mean you could swing it to 65:35 due to Wario at least keeping the set close for game 2's CP, but yeah. It's none of that ***** 6/4 ****. What are most people content with though? "Oh Marth wins, 6/4" lol
Thebest1pj
Pinnacle of Projectile Placement.
Sorry to bother you but, we're talking about viable characters at the moment. Please come back when your character actually matters.
The problem is that the +1 / +2 is the same arbitrary crap that 65/35 used to be. Imo we should all just use a X / 10 ratio for match-ups, where we "calculate" how many times out of ten each character realistically wins in a match-up [assuming even skill], making Snake 6 vs GW 4 for example. The less assumptions our ratios include the more practical and relevant a match-up number becomes.
This kind of belongs into the match-up chart thread though.
This kind of belongs into the match-up chart thread though.
Conviction
Human Nature
LOL shadow, also why can't we just say soft/hard counter, or even.
Or just make something universal where it states something clear. Can we even do that? Lol
Or just make something universal where it states something clear. Can we even do that? Lol
I'm still getting name-dropped for Lucas' board stuff? wtf? XD
But yea I'd listen to Seagull because I agree PF's opinon>every other lucas'. Though FAE/Nasty/Mekos and the like still hold good insight. *shrug* I'm just happy we actually get some insight.
*goes back to lurk*
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