Official BBR Tier List v5

[Alphicans]

Ftilt is nothing? Is his ridiculous grab range nothing too? Or how about his stupid broken spot dodge?

To say DDD without a CG is just another DK with less reliable kill options is pretty naive. He has plenty of fantastic attributes aside from the CG.

 

[Juushichi]

Without the threat of a chain grab, what out of a grab do you think I'm afraid of as Mario?

People can work around grab ranges. I am more afraid of what DDD does to my character from a grab than the grab itself.

I am not afraid of ftilt. I'm afraid of Falco's slotdodge because he can do what he does when he's out of it. I'm afraid of DDD's spotdodge because Of what happens after he gets the inevitable grab.

The spotdodge itself isn't something that takes extreme care.

I also said "like" in reference to the DK comment. Mario gets in on DK and DK hurts. DK swats and kills Mario early if he's kept out.

Without the CG to rack up damage, what am I afraid of from DDD? What dissuades me from attack his shield if he doesn't get free continuous damage off of one mistake?

What attributes do I have to fear?

 

[Tagxy]

His ftilt is pretty meh, and his spot dodge can be broken by any decent multi hit move i.e. marios dair. I mean his other attributes arent bad, but theyre more consistent with a good mid tier character such as peach or rob. DK is a rather good character, he just gets owned by stupid stuff.

 

[Alphicans]

Dthrow would still be a good tech chase option, bthrow would still do 16% damge, and fthrow is also a good damaging throw. One bthrow probably does an average of just over half of the damage a CG would do, so it's still a huge threat. Not to mention the trajectory sends you in a very undesirable position.

His ftilt isn't a move you spam or anything but it closes out certain approaches. It's pretty good as a spacer.

 

[Conviction]

I never said ddd is g tier. He is just not better than marth and wario lol

 

[Steam]

lol okay.

I do lol. you can ask just about anyone who plays me.

 

[John12346]

This is part of the problem I have with weighing tournaments entirely by attendance, it still doesn't account for the quality of the players youre fighting. Not that the data isnt great, but you still have to look at the big picture. In spite of a high success to usage ratio, I cant see how anyone could look at Ice Climbers results in the last year and say they have exceptional results. Instead it might simply be that a character dominates more at mid-level play when compared to high level. tbh I think the same is true for characters like marth and wario as well, although not nearly as much as for ICs. Is there some major tournament Im missing that an Ice Climber did particularly well in since the last tier list?


This is interesting, is there any more data like this you can share?

Also does this mean strictly "X main uses a secondary Y% of the time"? Or "X character was used with another character Y% of the time"?

Well, keep in mind I'm hoping that this information accurately shows what the metagame is like right now. Keep in mind that lower level tournies will have less influence on the data(likely because there'll be less players; an overall lesser turnout), but they should serve as some deciding factor when considering all of the data, because whichever characters placed in the money likely placed there for a reason.

And as far as characters used, Ripple covers that, but he only includes main + one secondary.

 

[Tagxy]

I understand, and its definitely something worth using. I also understand that attendance is the best piece of data you can work with to measure all tournaments, but tournament attendance does not directly equate to skill. For instance two weeks ago at a tournament with less than 30 attendants, mike beat tyrant, larry twice and anuar. Thats as tough a bracket youd see at most big regionals, but it accounts for little.

My point being that while the stats are useful for result analysis, its important to also ensure the statistics are following whats happening at important tournaments. Otherwise as I mentioned you end up with Ice Climbers as 5th best character despite not having done anything notable in the past 9 months.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If we're using AiB as credibility then GaW beats Mk.

 

[Judo777]

Juu you really think Marios recovery is better than sheiks? I always thought sheiks was a decent bit better. I might be biased tho.

 

[Doc King]

I never said ddd is g tier. He is just not better than marth and wario lol

I wouldn't blame you for thinking that, but imo I think that Dedede and Marth are pretty close on a tier list (as of now). They both have good air, ground, and chain throw options.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Dat clear bias

 

[Conviction]

*sigh* ^ what jimmy said. Coney doesn't even think that.

 

[Coney]

ddd would still beat mario, even without the cg; he just beats him out, 16% is just fine to beat him. ddd/luigi is near even without the infinite, and there's no way mario does better than luigi.

if ddd couldn't chaingrab, he would lose to certain characters HARD; dk, ike, wario, maybe even wolf. but he definitely would still beat mario, for sure

also i shouldn't be a judge as to how good ddd is or isn't, because i'm told i underrate him way too much so i'll reserve judgement

 

[Conviction]

Well could you at least tell us who could? Because I'm not believing him saying ddd being better than either marth or wario.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

personally i think king dedede beats ganondorf

 

[John12346]

Dedede's infinite on Luigi is nearly impossible to perform, for the record...

 

[Judo777]

Dedede's infinite on Luigi is nearly impossible to perform, for the record...

What???? No it's not lol I can do it and I don't even play D3. You just have to buffer grabs.

Unless I am misunderstanding something its just the typical infinite like on DK right?

 

[John12346]

I dunno, I've tried it, and it seems like the timing for it is beyond strict, plus it doesn't help that Dedede has to pummel, which of course means we can break out of it more easily.

 

[Flayl]

4 dthrows and a bthrow is about 43%

even if you don't infinite luigi it's a huge deal

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The infinite on Luigi isn't really hard but like someone said above, you have to pummel meaning it isn't really infinite until nearly kill percent anyway.

It's the same for Mario and Samus (I think). The only characters Dedede truly infinites without a buffered pivot grab after dthrow are Donkey Kong and another King Dedede.

BTW, why doesn't King Dedede invalidate himself?

 

[Conviction]

^ good question

 

[Matador]

ddd would still beat mario, even without the cg; he just beats him out, 16% is just fine to beat him. ddd/luigi is near even without the infinite, and there's no way mario does better than luigi.

if ddd couldn't chaingrab, he would lose to certain characters HARD; dk, ike, wario, maybe even wolf. but he definitely would still beat mario, for sure

also i shouldn't be a judge as to how good ddd is or isn't, because i'm told i underrate him way too much so i'll reserve judgement

I agree that D3 would prolly still beat Mario, even though the advantage would be much smaller...But the whole Luigi comparison is weird to me.

He beats Luigi for completely different reasons than Mario, no? The only thing they really have in common in the match-up is the shorter range, if you think about it.

@John: Did you set C-stick to grab? It's child's play that way.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I am still trying to figure out how DDD ends up killing people. He has powerful attacks, but they are difficult to land. He sort of has a bit of peach syndrome it seems. His throws and Bair could be powerful killers, but they are so vital to his potency that they get overused and lose killing power.

Utilt is good, but this only seems dangerous if you are above DDD or right on top of him. If you are trying to keep your opponent at a ftilt distance the whole stock or right in front of you for a grab, it seems difficult to ever land an Utilt (not to mention people want to play safe around DDD to avoid grabs). Apart from that, what can DDD reliably kill with unless he gets to over 150%?

 

[Conviction]

Waddle Dee camping obviously

 

[lucha5]

d3's dtilt kills at 100% each time

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

King Dedede does have a similar problem to Peach as killing but has actual setups and chases into utilt, also has a few traps. He does kill pretty late occasionally, but he also lives for a really long time, making the problem less severe for him. Short answer, his weight goes a long way toward alleviating that problem.

If Peach lived to 210% she wouldn't have a "killing problem" in the same way she does now.

 

[Conviction]

I guess I have a bias because I can kill him earlier.

 

[Coney]

I agree that D3 would prolly still beat Mario, even though the advantage would be much smaller...But the whole Luigi comparison is weird to me.

He beats Luigi for completely different reasons than Mario, no? The only thing they really have in common in the match-up is the shorter range, if you think about it.

@John: Did you set C-stick to grab? It's child's play that way.

well i consider the matchups pretty similar; both combo him to hell, both get outranged and outprioritized, but the thing luigi has on mario is that he can actually kill ddd with something. any smash, jab>upb, all kindsa stuff. mario has it a lot tougher imo. with luigi it's "oh **** i'm at 110% be careful" instead of with mario, it's "oh **** i'm at 160% be careful"

i normally don't lump the two together, but i play the matchups very similar and it does well for me

4 dthrows and a bthrow is about 43%

even if you don't infinite luigi it's a huge deal

you can't cg luigi...well you can but it's like, super duper frame perfect and i doubt anyone will ever try it. that's why the matchup isn't that bad, the chaingrab is, iirc, literally one frame

and yeah john, if you put your cstick to grab the infinite is easy japanesy

 

[Flayl]

you can't cg luigi...well you can but it's like, super duper frame perfect and i doubt anyone will ever try it. that's why the matchup isn't that bad, the chaingrab is, iirc, literally one frame

and yeah john, if you put your cstick to grab the infinite is easy japanesy

i was talking about the standing cg... instead of pummeling just straight up dthrow 4 times and after that grab and bthrow him. Hit Luigi 4/5 times and you can do it again (although by that point he's probably dead)

 

[John12346]

Seems kinda dumb to set your Cstick to Grab though...

At least, in Dedede's case, where retreating Bairs are super duper important or something

 

[Matador]

Seems kinda dumb to set your Cstick to Grab though...

At least, in Dedede's case, where retreating Bairs are super duper important or something

Not if the infinite is legal...lol.

 

[Judo777]

You have to pummel for the infinite? I didn't know that?

 

[BSP]

Where have you been?

 

[Judo777]

Where have you been?

<----- right here not playing D3 and when I do not being a douche and infiniting people in friendlies lol

I guess I never really tried more than 3 regrabs cause they are always friendlies.

 

[BSP]

Luigi and Sonic are tied. There's nothing on any of my data suggesting that either character is better than the other. They both have really wonky advantages and disadvantages of their own that just seem to make them... equal to each other.

Do you have something we can't see? Sonic has about as much money as peach for example, who made the tier above him, and is about 400$ above Luigi, but is stuck tied with him. What's making Sonic and Luigi seem equal?

 

[Ussi]

The MU chart maybe?... Nvm.. Luigi has worse MU ratios compared to Sonic by the chart

 

[BSP]

Yeah, I could see that. But it's important to see the value of Luigi's -3 with MK.

Going minus 3 with the most popular character by far is a huge problem for his viability/potential IMO.

 

[Chuee]

Yeah, I could see that. But it's important to see the value of Luigi's -3 with MK.

Going minus 3 with the most popular character by far is a huge problem for his viability/potential IMO.

Not like Sonic doesn't lose solidly to most high tiers.

 

[BSP]

Not like Luigi doesn't either