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Official BBR Tier List v5

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ShadowLink84

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They why doesn't dair get SDIed out of more? Seriously, people fail to SDI it more than Nair by a ton. It's only really useful as an OoS punish sure, but it's not easy to SDI.

Lmao if you're spacing is good. It's hitbox is bigger than like every characters body. yeah, Uairs outrange it almost always, but he doesn't have to be directly above you to use it, and if you just Uair spam, he can FF and Air dodge through you. And Bair punishes you waiting for the air dodge.
Simply because people suck, and are lazy.
Dair is easy to SDI out of, can't see why you're trying to even argue otherwise.

As for spacing, it should be good. Snake isn't the greatest threat in the air and lacks the speed and mobility to make his aerials a genuine threat.

As for FF and airdodge, what is stopping the opponent from simply staying on the ground?

Let's not play the hypothetical and work with what we have.
In the air, SNake is vulnerable, not because he can't kill you, but simply because once he is in the air, his options are not as versatile or as great of a threat.
Dair= gets killed by SDI
Nair=killed by SDI
Fair=slow as ****
bair= rather good but stays out forever, and is extremely predictable if he has his back turned.

So yeah, his air game is lacking, and no it is not good.
LOL@K.I.D. even claiming it is good cause of its kill potential.

Edit: So Aly uses it. your point? Is it being used successfully? Does the opponent SDI it properly? You've got to take those things into account.
 

Tarmogoyf

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Simply because people suck, and are lazy.
Dair is easy to SDI out of, can't see why you're trying to even argue otherwise.
I can't refute this.
Except until people start doing it, it's fact......

As for spacing, it should be good. Snake isn't the greatest threat in the air and lacks the speed and mobility to make his aerials a genuine threat.
A "genuine threat"? WTF does that even mean? His aerials kill you at low %s, and aren't slow as balls, and have good hitboxes. You don't need mobility for your aerials to be good. Not all aerials are used to chase people down/ Juggle. Some are used to scare your opponent so they can't attack you without risk, like snakes.

He's a huge threat in the air, just a little predictable.

As for FF and airdodge, what is stopping the opponent from simply staying on the ground?
If they stay on the ground, you can double jump/ B reverse to avoid juggles.
I do think staying on the ground is better, but thats because I don't want to mess up and get Baired when I can just abuse the fact that snake lacks ways to land lol

Let's not play the hypothetical and work with what we have.
In the air, SNake is vulnerable, not because he can't kill you, but simply because once he is in the air, his options are not as versatile or as great of a threat.
Dair= gets killed by SDI
Nair=killed by SDI
Fair=slow as ****
bair= rather good but stays out forever, and is extremely predictable if he has his back turned.
Yeah, you don't Dair with snake when your opponent isn't grounded.
Nair is kinda weird. It's mostly useful for stopping people from approaching from the front. Honestly, I don't even try to full Nair, but let them get hit, then immideatly fastfall, so I escape while they get out.
Fair is basically only for reading your opponent.
Bair is covered. Fortunately for snake, not everyone has Uairs and fastfalls as good as MK so that they can easily punish both FFAD and Bair

So yeah, his air game is lacking, and no it is not good.
It's limited in it's uses sure, but it does what it needs to do, and does that pretty well

Edit: So Aly uses it. your point? Is it being used successfully? Does the opponent SDI it properly? You've got to take those things into account.
Until people stop sucking at SDI, yeah, it works.
 

Shaya

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Some rather interesting data has been displayed in the tier list discussion thread.

I'm sure it will be cc'd to here at some point, but for one, it pretty much justifies marth's current position, potentially even a rise :O

The branch of lower high tier is getting a lot of focus,
Wolf and Fox fiascos going a shindig style in relation to that.
 

phi1ny3

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dair from what I understand is a good option for dthrow tech chase, since the opponent is grounded, and it works well for people that you can't jab when laying still.
 

Browny

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Some rather interesting opinions have been displayed in the tier list discussion thread.

I'm sure it will be cc'd to here at some point, but for one, it pretty much justifies marth's current position, potentially even a rise :O
Fixed for you
 

Shaya

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Data is data.

All tournaments with an attendance of over 50 since September.
Sorry DJBrowny :)

High Tier Secondary Usage:
1. Diddy Kong (2%)
2. Olimar (3%)
3. Pikachu (4%)
4. Marth (9%)
5. Falco / Snake (12%)
6. Lucario (14%)
7. Wario (17%)
8. Dedede (18%)
9. G&W / Ice Climbers (25%)

As in, according to large tournaments, if you use Ice Climbers, you're a lot more likely to be having secondaries than otherwise.
 

Shaya

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Marth is a popular tournament character.

What do you want?

Marth is the third most likely character to win a tournament if he appears top 4 after MK and Diddy. What now?

How data is interpreted, and what opinion is formed from that data is generally created by the scope of things.
 

Browny

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Give me the stats for Sonic

bet its gonna be like 0%

-

Lol nice missing that critical factor in your post, might wanna mention its regarding players WINNING only.

Also allow me to fix your post again

High Tier Secondary Usage:
1. Diddy Kong (2%)
2. Olimar (3%)
3. Pikachu (4%)
4. Mikehaze (9%)
5. Falco / Snake (12%)
6. Lucario (14%)
7. Wario (17%)
8. Dedede (18%)
9. G&W / Ice Climbers (25%)
Much more accurate.
 

Tarmogoyf

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Marth is a popular tournament character.

What do you want?
I want him to win according to his popularity, AKA, roughly the 3rd best money won.

Marth is the third most likely character to win a tournament if he appears top 4 after MK and Diddy. What now?
....
wat. He is used so much he is most likely to win? Doesn't work that way
 

Doc King

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Just to point out my opinion, but you shouldn't judge character popularity over who is the better character or not because there can just be ppl who don't use a certain character or something that much when they really are a good character. So I think Marth should just be high tier or something, not middle.
 

Tesh

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Alot of people use him, but only 1 of them ever wins. He is mid tier.
 

Tarmogoyf

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Pretty sure Tesh was trolling.

He does deserve a drop IMO. Not huge, and maybe it's not really a drop, but a rise of Pika and Oli
 

Conviction

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I go to a party and all of a sudden all hell breaks loose. :glare:

lol lucario definately isn't broken, he very floaty, not so fast, his recovery is pretty slow, predictable, and punishable. Although Lucario is a good characters with his fair combos and stuff. ;)
Come now.

Please tell me you didn't miss the obvious trolling of Ash Ketchum.
LOL

How about this for the tops

MK
Falco
Diddy
Snake
Climbers
Pikachu
Olimar
Dedede
Game and Watch
Wario
Marth
Toon Link
Zero Suit
lucario
Fox
'

Besides, your glaring main bias, do you actually have an basis for DDD being that high?

Falco above Diddy and Snake?
This.

I can easily tell you main D3.
-DEAD-

^This.

His aerials are amazing. He gets juggled. So does basically everyone in this game.
Ganon's hits hard, every move he does can kill you around 100% you risk getting kill every situation. Ganon just gets beat just like everyone else in this game can.

Forreal though, just no dog. Everyone gets juggled but other gets juggled harder than the other. Example: Link gets gimped easier than other characters.

Stop the madness, Snake is not a threat like a character with a good way of getting back down and/or good air mobility.

It matters a ton lol. Every time you try and juggle/edgeguard him, you have to risk dying because they are so powerful.

Not mentioning that having better kill options means little. Having more options is a major factor, since your opponent has to look out in more situations.
This. You can limit Snake's options in the air to juggle him longer, stop acting like Snake is god mode in the air.

D3 above Marth.
hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahahah
I died too :awesome:

I agree with Nair being easy to SDI, buy lol at dair being easy.

And I would really like you to explain how Bair never hits, seeing as it hits about as much as Utilt.
Wow, when did we start puttting down our controllers when we get hit by slow multi-hit moves? Dair is easy to SDI. It's basically the same as SDI'ing the Nair. Improve the SDI skills homie.

Just to point out my opinion, but you shouldn't judge character popularity over who is the better character or not because there can just be ppl who don't use a certain character or something that much when they really are a good character. So I think Marth should just be high tier or something, not middle.
LOL. This was too funny, especially reading it from you. :awesome: I'll change popularity to bias and say, DDD is not better than Marth.

Why is everyone taking shots at Marth now.

No way he's mid tier.
Coney hit em with the "that's the joke" picture.
 

BluePeachy100

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Tesh is bad don't listen to him.

D3 is most certainly not better than Wario. You can't use bias to ascertain the truth. What matters are results, not your own personal flawed thoughts.

Your general structure for the tops is... utterly idiotic.
 

C.J.

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Why is everyone taking shots at Marth now.
Because he's a really popular character so he gets a ton of use, so when his money earned is "meh" it looks bad for him with his usage so high.

If IC's winning rate stayed the exact same, but if 100 more people started playing IC in tourny and losing, they'd start taking shots @ IC too. Ditto Pika/Oli/anyone not named MK/Falco/Diddy.
 

Tesh

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tesh is bad don't listen to him.

D3 is most certainly not better than wario. You can't use bias to ascertain the truth. What matters are results, not your own personal flawed thoughts.

Your general structure for the tops is... Utterly idiotic.
money match!
 

Conviction

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Yeah, but isn't there a time where you can just look at a character. Just read into him a little bit and tell, he is not worse than some characters. Especially not DDD
 

Conviction

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If you beat him, I won't listen to you. What MU will you playing Lucario vs. MK right?

Not say...Pika vs. Marth :troll:

Forreal can anyone explain my pre-mentioned things like, (lol) Snake's Dair being hard to SDI? I really hope we don't need a metagame minute explaining it.
 

John12346

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John Numbers' Finalized But Probably Still ******** Tier List

Top Tier
S: :metaknight:

High Tier
A: :snake: :diddy: :falco:
B: :popo: :olimar:
C: :marth: :warioc: :pikachu2:
D: :dedede: :lucario: :zerosuitsamus: :gw:

Mid Tier
E: :toonlink: :fox: :rob: :dk2: :wolf: :peach: :pit: :kirby2:
F: (:luigi2:/:sonic:) :ike: :sheilda:
G: :sheik: :ness2: :pt: :yoshi2:

Low Tier
H: :lucas: :mario2: :bowser2:
I: :link2: :zelda: :samus2:

Bottom Tier
J: :jigglypuff: :falcon: :ganondorf:

I went really ****ing nuts with the data this time; going down to a level of precision unlike anything you've probably ever seen in your entire life. This is my final draft of what I feel the tier list should look like.

Luigi and Sonic are tied. There's nothing on any of my data suggesting that either character is better than the other. They both have really wonky advantages and disadvantages of their own that just seem to make them... equal to each other.
 

Tesh

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what makes people think falcon is THAT bad? Even if you think he is 2nd worst, he is definitely a gap above ganon.
 

C.J.

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John Numbers' Finalized But Probably Still ******** Tier List

Top Tier
S: :metaknight:

High Tier
A: :snake: :diddy: :falco:
B: :popo: :olimar:
C: :marth: :warioc: :pikachu2:
D: :dedede: :lucario: :zerosuitsamus: :gw:

Mid Tier
E: :toonlink: :pit: :fox: :rob: :dk2: :wolf: :peach: :kirby2:
F: (:luigi2:/:sonic:) :ike: :sheilda:
G: :sheik: :ness2: :pt: :yoshi2:

Low Tier
H: :lucas: :mario2: :bowser2:
I: :link2: :zelda: :samus2:

Bottom Tier
J: :jigglypuff: :falcon: :ganondorf:

I went really ****ing nuts with the data this time; going down to a level of precision unlike anything you've probably ever seen in your entire life. This is my final draft of what I feel the tier list should look like.

Luigi and Sonic are tied. There's nothing on any of my data suggesting that either character is better than the other. They both have really wonky advantages and disadvantages of their own that just seem to make them... equal to each other.
See, now you should upload all your data and thought process or w/e and let us look at them.

Ganon should still have his own tier. B and C should be combined imo.
Also, reasoning on IC please? I don't disagree, I have no idea how to feel about them tbh.
 

John12346

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The ICs have really exceptional results, especially in the success/usage ratio, even when excluding Ally's influence. In addition to that, they have an all around astounding pressure game coupled with their CG infinites to death.

ROB's up there mostly because of results, but also when I was considering character ability, I didn't see the characters below him as better, so yeah.

And I forgot to save my data when I moved Pit down. LOLwhoops, fixing that now.
 

san.

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DK players get pretty nice consistent results. I can recall at least 4 DKs that are a pretty large threat at tournaments. Enough to rival Wolf at least.
 
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