Official BBR Tier List v5

[DMG]

Top 4 in the game gonna be MK Diddy Falco Snake prob. After that, some combo of Wario Pika Marth Oli IC's Dedede/Lucario/who knows. You have a group of characters that are obvious candidates for top 5 (MK Diddy Falco Snake) with everyone else outside of that fighting for a spot around top 8.

I mean ideally, Snake probably isn't 4th best, but his results are better than anyone below him at that point. Marth Wario Oli Pika etc. Diddy... idk if he's second best either but it really boils down into a game of who you think is the safest MU wise. Wario has more than the potential to be top 5 in the game, but he probably has a less safe MU spread than Marth or Falco or Diddy or even Snake. Olimar who knows... He does good but I doubt he's higher than 8th out of top 8. IC's could easily be top 5 but result wise they don't do **** anymore. Most of their mains retired, play other characters now, or get gayed by MK in tourney lol.

If you had a list based solely off of results, no doubt top 5 would probably be MK Diddy Snake Falco and Pika/Marth/Oli fighting for 5th. Oli might get it honestly, with Logic and Dabuz and Rich Brown placing quite well compared to Pika and Marth mains. After that, prob Pika Marth Wario D3/Lucario IC's ZSS G&W etc. Character wise though, Snake probably isn't third best, Oli probably isn't 5th best, IC's probably not that low, etc.

 

[Alphicans]

It'll be an interesting update for sure.

I think we're finally going to see snake drop from his 2nd place throne, and diddy will replace him. From a match-up perspective it seems like marth should actually take that 3rd spot, and he does have the results in Europe, but I definitely do not see that happening. Top 3 will probably be MK, Diddy then Snake. I really think Marth should be above falco, and wario/ICs should probably be as well. I don't think a character who gets HARD countered by someone, and then gets soft countered by another has any business in the top 5 :/.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't think so. I looked at the results and the active tl mains that i know of are placing the same placings they have always been.

TL is like wolf in this situation.

right seagull

Pretty much. Wolf mains have always had top placings in tourneys lmao.

 

[Nike.]

Actually, I did some data collecting with a buttload of results about a week ago to see who was placing the best in high tier (Since September, so it's slightly different compared to Ripples thread). Turns out that IC's and Olimar are doing better than Wario and Marth. Based off the results I saw (and not including any other factors):

1. Metaknight
2. Snake
3. Diddy
4. Falco
5. Ice Climbers
6. Olimar
7. Marth
8. Wario
(pikas sucked lol)

 

[DMG]

Ice Climbers as 5th? Wtf? Im guessing that's Atomsk and Vinnie?

 

[Tesh]

Marth is mid tier. Seriously there is like 1 Marth player doing serious work.

Now Toon Boomerang Arrow Bomb Zair Marth is pretty good though.

 

[phi1ny3]

Top 4 in the game gonna be MK Diddy Falco Snake prob. After that, some combo of Wario Pika Marth Oli IC's Dedede/Lucario/who knows. You have a group of characters that are obvious candidates for top 5 (MK Diddy Falco Snake) with everyone else outside of that fighting for a spot around top 8.

I mean ideally, Snake probably isn't 4th best, but his results are better than anyone below him at that point. Marth Wario Oli Pika etc. Diddy... idk if he's second best either but it really boils down into a game of who you think is the safest MU wise. Wario has more than the potential to be top 5 in the game, but he probably has a less safe MU spread than Marth or Falco or Diddy or even Snake. Olimar who knows... He does good but I doubt he's higher than 8th out of top 8. IC's could easily be top 5 but result wise they don't do **** anymore. Most of their mains retired, play other characters now, or get gayed by MK in tourney lol.

If you had a list based solely off of results, no doubt top 5 would probably be MK Diddy Snake Falco and Pika/Marth/Oli fighting for 5th. Oli might get it honestly, with Logic and Dabuz and Rich Brown placing quite well compared to Pika and Marth mains. After that, prob Pika Marth Wario D3/Lucario IC's ZSS G&W etc. Character wise though, Snake probably isn't third best, Oli probably isn't 5th best, IC's probably not that low, etc.

I can agree w/ this, although any character that has anything resembling a net disadvantage against Peach is bad, get @ that astounding logic.

 

[Flayl]

I know this seems like common sense but I think the reason people keep rating Snake way lower than his results is because they keep underestimating the importance of his survivability. He gets hit harder than those around him sure, but if you could somehow find out the proportion between the damages he takes per mistake and the damage that's required to actually KO him or knock horizontally far enough for a gimp, I bet it would be plenty in Snake's favor compared to Falco, for example.

Then character mains that have small combos or good options against his falling/landing automatically assume they have an advantage in the matchup when in the bigger picture it's not really that big of a deal.

Anyway Diddy for second, Snake for third, Falco is the black sheep.

 

[Spelt]

People also overrate the power of his survivability

 

[Steam]

Then character mains that have small combos or good options against his falling/landing automatically assume they have an advantage in the matchup when in the bigger picture it's not really that big of a deal.

Lucario does both really well : D

and it's still his worst matchup :I

 

[Flayl]

Worse than Dedede?

 

[Steam]

Worse than Dedede?

In theory... eeehhh maybe probably not.

but in practice yes because none of the top D3s use the JC upsmash thingy out of Dthrow

 

[MechaWave]

Any news about Peach? Like seriously, she hasn't moved jack **** for any of the recent tier lists at all. At least +1 spot would satisfy me.

 

[Nike.]

Sonics gonna be above Peach in the next tier list

 

[MechaWave]

Sonics gonna be above Peach in the next tier list

No words. *cries in corner*

 

[Nefarious B]

Ice Climbers as 5th? Wtf? Im guessing that's Atomsk and Vinnie?

Ally's 1 game of ICs at pound or w/e it was gave them a huge boost iirc

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think Falco will remain in the top 4 and I see him drop sooner or later. If IC mains quit being horrible at this game that is.

 

[John12346]

As far as ICs, I intend to remove that outlying win by Ally at Pound when it comes time to evaluate data, because it's way too influential.

The literal translation is remove $300 from "Won by Character"
Remove $1000 from "Won by User"
Remove $600 from "Average"

 

[Raziek]

Yes, would appreciate major outliers being removed, ONE game shouldn't get a character that much money to their credit, when they barely contributed.

 

[Flayl]

I don't know if you counted it, but if you did you should remove ESAM's Bowser as it was used to basically win a joke match.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

When said player can't beat said player without that character? Ally lost with Wario, lost with MK, lost with snake. He needed ICs to win (well, possibly another character than his usual 3, but he picked ICs). Maybe it should count less, but it's not like he went ICs for the lulz, like with Marth against razer.

Cut it in like half IMO.

 

[Flayl]

Purely results based NA-centric tier list ( does not account for popularity):

SSS Tier:
Meta Knight

A Tier:
Snake

B Tier:
Diddy Kong
Wario, Falco, Ice Climbers
Marth
Olimar, Pikachu, Wolf, Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link
R.O.B.
Zero Suit Samus
Peach, Mr. Game & Watch, Sonic
Fox
Ike, Kirby

C Tier:
Pokémon Trainer, Zelda + Sheik
Donkey Kong, Yoshi
Luigi
Mario, Pit
Ness
Samus
Lucas
Ganondorf
Bowser

D Tier:
Link

E Tier:
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

Purely results based NA-centric tier list (accounts for popularity):
Waiting on Ripple to update his post or John to send me his file

Tiers are separated by >50% score differences or a >1000% difference with the top of the tier. Tied rankings are used for differences <10%. I used John's stats until D Tier, then I used mine. I would've started using my stats earlier, but Pit's terrible results screwed it up.

 

[Steam]

the ammount of usage means a lot you know..

 

[Nike.]

It was purely off of statistics from results, he's just giving you one way to look at it.

Great info Flayl

 

[Flayl]

If you pay attention to the lower part of the post, I need more data before I can account for popularity (for non-low tier characters anyway).

Anyway it's interesting how the success of the characters pans out to be almost exponential. The lower you go (with exception for the absolute bottom), the smaller the difference. Sort of.

 

[stingers]

im surprised wario is so high. u dont hear much from him.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

lol mario being that high based on results

 

[Fuujin]

Purely results based NA-centric tier list ( does not account for popularity):

SSS Tier:
Meta Knight

A Tier:
Snake

B Tier:
Diddy Kong
Wario, Falco, Ice Climbers
Marth
Olimar, Pikachu, Wolf, Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link
R.O.B.
Zero Suit Samus
Peach, Mr. Game & Watch, Sonic
Fox
Ike, Kirby

C Tier:
Pokémon Trainer, Zelda + Sheik
Donkey Kong, Yoshi
Luigi
Mario, Pit
Ness
Samus
Lucas
Ganondorf
Bowser

D Tier:
Link

E Tier:
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

Something that has always bothered me about the list/charts you provide... why do you always put Zelda/Sheik together?

 

[Flayl]

Because drawing the limit between the two is hard. If a Sheik player plays Zelda for 1 stock, does it count as Sheilda? Separating the two makes sense for specific tier events, but when you're measuring overall potential it makes more sense to think of Sheik and Zelda being played at the optimal level, which includes use of DownB.

 

[Fuujin]

Because drawing the limit between the two is hard. If a Sheik player plays Zelda for 1 stock, does it count as Sheilda? Separating the two makes sense for specific tier events, but when you're measuring overall potential it makes more sense to think of Sheik and Zelda being played at the optimal level, which includes use of DownB.

Well if a Zelda player goes Zelda the entire time it makes no sense to group them with a totally different character they never used.
They may be interchangable but they are still two completely different characters, with two completely different metagames.
That's the same reason there are still indivisual Zelda and Sheik spots on the tier list and match up charts.

Sheik and Zelda being played at the optimal level, which includes use of DownB.

If you're talking optimal level...99% of the time its better to use Sheik.
Despite what people will tell you its pretty much always better to use Sheik.
The only thing Zelda does better than Sheik is not get chain grabbed.

 

[C.J.]

She tends to live longer than Sheik too.
/annoyed expecting Ed to die, then not.

 

[Fuujin]

She tends to live longer than Sheik too.
/annoyed expecting Ed to die, then not.

Depends on the kb angle, Zelda lives a little longer horizontally but her recovery is balls, Zelda only gets back safely if she's really high up or you let her.
To sum it up, if you're killing Sheik earlier than Zelda (without gimps/spikes) you're doing something wrong.

 

[da K.I.D.]

why do you play zelda in tournament? i never seen somebody be so unyieldingly negative about a character they persist in maining for tourneys. even clai has nice things to say about ganon from time to time.

 

[Yikarur]

but it's realistic =D

it's interesting that Yoshi is on that list exactly where I would categorize him for the tier list (below DK, over Luigi) but the I would put even more chars over Luigi though :/

 

[Fuujin]

why do you play zelda in tournament? i never seen somebody be so unyieldingly negative about a character they persist in maining for tourneys. even clai has nice things to say about ganon from time to time.

Because I always have an excuse when I lose to someone, unless it's Ganon.

 

[Judo777]

Marth is mid tier. Seriously there is like 1 Marth player doing serious work.

Now Toon Boomerang Arrow Bomb Zair Marth is pretty good though.

Lol if we make Marth Mid Tier he will occupy every single top spot in mid tier tournament placings. The only spots he won't occupy are the ones higher than the total number of marths present lol.

 

[Clai]

why do you play zelda in tournament? i never seen somebody be so unyieldingly negative about a character they persist in maining for tourneys. even clai has nice things to say about ganon from time to time.

Inbe4ReyCalmposts

It's not that hard to say nice things about Ganon when almost everyone regards him as less competitive than Roll in MvC2. It's like people don't want to look at him as even a character, but rather say, 'herp derp our character +4's Ganon because he's Ganon.' Low tier mains want to advance our metagame just as badly as the 'viable' characters and someone has to wade through the ignorance.

Because I always have an excuse when I lose to someone, unless it's Ganon.

If you are making excuses as to why you're losing, you're artificially placing limits on yourself and are unworthy of your character. If you lost, it was because your opponent played better than you did. Pure and simple. Anything else is just needless whining and reflects more on you as a player than anything your character contributes.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I honestly wish I had the dedication to Ganon that Clai does.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Wolf would still win mid tier tourneys if Marth was mid tier lmao. Wolf might just beat Marth at this point in time.

 

[Conviction]

Yeah I could see wolf/fox/other mid tiers with good mus vs. marth winning.