Official BBR Tier List v5

[Flayl]

Is there a reason why DK doesn't win mid tier tournaments? Aren't all of his worse matchups in high tier?

 

[Conviction]

I'll just stay quiet on this one but I'm pretty sure my answer right.

 

[Raziek]

Marth would definitely do extremely well in Mid-tier tourneys, but he's actually pretty close to even with most of the tier.

ROB, DK, Wolf, and probably Fox and Toon Link are all even for sure.

Everyone else sans Ness and PT he's +1, maybe +2 on Sheik.

He'd be a presence for sure, since he has no real DISADVANTAGES besides ROB was close to a -1, but settled on even. But it wouldn't be like, "LOLMARTHFREEWINS"

Kind of irrelevant though, since Marth will never fall below B tier. >_>

 

[Conviction]

Now take those characters the posted above me did, take out DK, and those are your reason why DK doesn't win MT tournies

 

[Steam]

and if D3 falls to mid tier... lol.

 

[Seagull Joe]

and if D3 falls to mid tier... lol.

FAIL. D3 is the best character in the game and would destroy mid tier.......

Marth would definitely do extremely well in Mid-tier tourneys, but he's actually pretty close to even with most of the tier.

ROB, DK, Wolf, and probably Fox and Toon Link are all even for sure.

Everyone else sans Ness and PT he's +1, maybe +2 on Sheik.

He'd be a presence for sure, since he has no real DISADVANTAGES besides ROB was close to a -1, but settled on even. But it wouldn't be like, "LOLMARTHFREEWINS"

Kind of irrelevant though, since Marth will never fall below B tier. >_>

It's like I never know. Wolf might beat Marth simply based off his ability to space similarly, kill easier, camp with lasers, and he's heavy.

I wanna say it's even, but the more I play Marth's, the more I think Wolf has a slight advantage on Marth. It just is becoming more and more apparent to me sometimes just who Wolf beats.

 

[Steam]

D3 is the best character in the game.

remove from BBR plz.

 

[Fuujin]

Inbe4ReyCalmposts

If you are making excuses as to why you're losing, you're artificially placing limits on yourself and are unworthy of your character. If you lost, it was because your opponent played better than you did. Pure and simple. Anything else is just needless whining and reflects more on you as a player than anything your character contributes.

Nope, Zelda sux, not my fault.

 

[Sailor Princess Twenty-Two.]

Then don't use her.

I must be a rocket scientist or something

 

[Judo777]

Marth would definitely do extremely well in Mid-tier tourneys, but he's actually pretty close to even with most of the tier.

ROB, DK, Wolf, and probably Fox and Toon Link are all even for sure.

Everyone else sans Ness and PT he's +1, maybe +2 on Sheik.

He'd be a presence for sure, since he has no real DISADVANTAGES besides ROB was close to a -1, but settled on even. But it wouldn't be like, "LOLMARTHFREEWINS"

Kind of irrelevant though, since Marth will never fall below B tier. >_>

Sheik goes close to even with Marth tho she slightly loses. But good insight none the less.

@Clai so if you have to be outplayed to lose than doesn't that make MU's irrelevant? If me and someone else are of equal skill and we both play the MU properly and his char destroys mine wouldn't that not be getting outplayed?

 

[<π]

zelda isn't that bad........... people just don't play her correctly. myself included. her recover is bad but spare that she has a solid moveset.

sheik goes even with... just about everyone. Because of needles.
I think she has two bad match ups, and I still win those...

 

[Conviction]

....that post reminds me strongly of someone else.... -_____-

 

[Spelt]

sheik goes even with... just about everyone. Because of needles.
I think she has two bad match ups, and I still win those...

umm ... i call troll.
if not then lol.

 

[Doc King]

I'm just wondering, but what is now making ppl think that Marth is a middle tier now? (Just wondering)

 

[Raziek]

Because his results don't really live up to his tier placement, in the eyes of many.

 

[Spelt]

Purely results based NA-centric tier list ( does not account for popularity):

SSS Tier:
Meta Knight

A Tier:
Snake

B Tier:
Diddy Kong
Wario, Falco, Ice Climbers
Marth
Olimar, Pikachu, Wolf, Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link
R.O.B.
Zero Suit Samus
Peach, Mr. Game & Watch, Sonic
Fox
Ike, Kirby

C Tier:
Pokémon Trainer, Zelda + Sheik
Donkey Kong, Yoshi
Luigi
Mario, Pit
Ness
Samus
Lucas
Ganondorf
Bowser

D Tier:
Link

E Tier:
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon

Purely results based NA-centric tier list (accounts for popularity):
Waiting on Ripple to update his post or John to send me his file

Tiers are separated by >50% score differences or a >1000% difference with the top of the tier. Tied rankings are used for differences <10%. I used John's stats until D Tier, then I used mine. I would've started using my stats earlier, but Pit's terrible results screwed it up.

Well, according to this he's still doing pretty good...

 

[Steam]

for the ammont of usage he has... marth is doing even worse than like Lucario/D3

 

[Spelt]

Not really...

Just because there aren't a bunch of marth mains placing in nationals doesn't mean he sucks.
Nationals aren't all that matter, people.
As much as you'd like to believe so.

 

[Raziek]

There's also the fact that Marth is a rather large presence over in Europe, comparatively.

 

[Clai]

Nope, Zelda sux, not my fault.

You agreed to your character's limitations by deciding to main her. Using her weaknesses as an exuse accomplishes nothing but shows a defiant refusal to learn how to get better.

@Clai so if you have to be outplayed to lose than doesn't that make MU's irrelevant? If me and someone else are of equal skill and we both play the MU properly and his char destroys mine wouldn't that not be getting outplayed?

Fighters are essentially little more than numerous games of option select, and matchups are essentially a measure of how well your characters' options. If one character's options destroy 9 out of 10 of the other character's options, then we would agree that first character would destroy the second. It's up to the second character's main to learn to not to get into the 9/10 options that get him destroyed but to get to the 1/10 options that he wins as much as possible. It will be exceptionally hard, but it's still a matter of the player figuring out how to win rather than the characters winning for them.

 

[Steam]

Not really...

Just because there aren't a bunch of marth mains placing in nationals doesn't mean he sucks.
Nationals aren't all that matter, people.
As much as you'd like to believe so.

actually I'm just going off of John#s data. but yeah at nationals marth is **** too.

 

[Judo777]

You agreed to your character's limitations by deciding to main her. Using her weaknesses as an exuse accomplishes nothing but shows a defiant refusal to learn how to get better.



Fighters are essentially little more than numerous games of option select, and matchups are essentially a measure of how well your characters' options. If one character's options destroy 9 out of 10 of the other character's options, then we would agree that first character would destroy the second. It's up to the second character's main to learn to not to get into the 9/10 options that get him destroyed but to get to the 1/10 options that he wins as much as possible. It will be exceptionally hard, but it's still a matter of the player figuring out how to win rather than the characters winning for them.

So by me easily picking an option that destroys all of your options except for one and you not picking that one option out of 10...... I am outplaying you? I think not.

 

[Fuujin]

You agreed to your character's limitations by deciding to main her. Using her weaknesses as an exuse accomplishes nothing but shows a defiant refusal to learn how to get better.

You kinda missed the sarcasm in my last two post.
I don't use Zelda so I have an excuse lol.
I wasn't trying to troll this time I swear.

On a more serious note, you're wrong.

 

[Steam]

that southpark image confuses me greatly

 

[Flayl]

Fighters are essentially little more than numerous games of option select[/QUOTE]

Option select means you input the same thing and get different results depending on what the opponent is doing.

 

[Fuujin]

that southpark image confuses me greatly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX8fKLjC__c

 

[phi1ny3]

I regret a friend of mine telling me about that movie.

Not even watching it, TELLING ME ABOUT IT

On topic:
How is Zelda v. ICs at top play? I'm sure it might be better than sheik v. ICs, but it seems like the basis for Zelda having a significant advantage is based on gimmick, I'm sure good ICs can get around Din's fire camping and smash walling.

 

[Fuujin]

I regret a friend of mine telling me about that movie.

Not even watching it, TELLING ME ABOUT IT

On topic:
How is Zelda v. ICs at top play?
I'm sure it might be better than sheik v. ICs, but it seems like the basis for Zelda having a significant advantage is based on gimmick, I'm sure good ICs can get around Din's fire camping and smash walling.

I play Hylian almost every Tuesday.
I used to do really well against him because IC's typically have a hard time getting past her F-smash until he found a way to get past it, its like -2 for her at best.
Sheik might have it a little bit harder but it isn't by much, Zelda doesn't do well when the player knows how to get past her F smash.

 

[Clai]

Option select means you input the same thing and get different results depending on what the opponent is doing.

My mistake. I must have used the wrong word, but the principal message stands.

So by me easily picking an option that destroys all of your options except for one and you not picking that one option out of 10...... I am outplaying you? I think not.

You say no to that question, but I would say yes, exactly. It's up to the player to recognize what options he/she has at any given moment and to realize when he/she is capable of using his/her character's options and when he/she can't. So yes, you are outplaying your opponent by picking a character that has superior options. The opponent has to either accept that you have superior options and find a way to beat them anyway or he has to resign to the fact that he cannot win with his character and should move to a better one.

You kinda missed the sarcasm in my last two post.
I don't use Zelda so I have an excuse lol.
I wasn't trying to troll this time I swear.

On a more serious note, you're wrong.

You could have fooled me, I thought you used Zelda, but seriously, where am I wrong?

 

[Fuujin]

You could have fooled me, I thought you used Zelda, but seriously, where am I wrong?

I do use Zelda.
I was saying I don't use her just to have an excuse to lose, I was joking.
You're wrong about the whole "If you lose its only because your opponent played better than you".

 

[Clai]

I do use Zelda.
I was saying I don't use her just to have an excuse to lose, I was joking.

My impression was that you use Zelda, but when you lose you make up some type of excuse, in which my response is suitably-

Why can't it REEEEEEAD?

A lot of people prefer to make excuses when they lose over actually taking responsibility, so forgive me for not recognizing the sarcasm.

What exactly is the best method of getting past Zelda's F-smash anyway? I rarely see Zelda being used at all, so her attacks remain a big mystery to me.

EDIT: No, I am not wrong about "If you lose it's only because your opponent played better than you."
Selecting a character that you know how to incorporate all of his/her/its tools in your gameplay is just as important as actually playing the battle itself.
The second you start blaming your character for losing your matches is the second you should either switch characters or accept that you will never achieve anything notable. You have only yourself to blame.

 

[Fuujin]

What exactly is the best method of getting past Zelda's F-smash anyway? I rarely see Zelda being used at all, so her attacks remain a big mystery to me.

Running spot dodge to grab(at least with Ice Climbers), you'd have to ask Hylian more about it.
He's like the only person that ever does it.

EDIT: No, I am not wrong about "If you lose it's only because your opponent played better than you."
Selecting a character that you know how to incorporate all of his/her/its tools in your gameplay is just as important as actually playing the battle itself.
The second you start blaming your character for losing your matches is the second you should either switch characters or accept that you will never achieve anything notable. You have only yourself to blame.

Soooo if I'm playing Bowser and I get caught in the infinite while fighting Dedede, I have myself to blame for that?

 

[Clai]

Soooo if I'm playing Bowser and I get caught in the infinite while fighting Dedede, I have myself to blame for that?

Yes, because you should have acknowledged that, by choosing Bowser, you are at constant risk for being infinited; that Dedede is going to be going for the infinite; and that Dedede is going to do everything in his arsenal that's going to ensure that he will infinite Bowser.

So you either recognize that going Bowser is going to be a poor choice and pick a character that doesn't get infinited, or you try to be a boss and pick Bowser anyway and do everything to make sure that you don't get infinited. If you try and be a boss and get infinited anyway, well, sucks to be you, doesn't it?

 

[Fuujin]

Yes, because you should have acknowledged that, by choosing Bowser, you are at constant risk for being infinited; that Dedede is going to be going for the infinite; and that Dedede is going to do everything in his arsenal that's going to ensure that he will infinite Bowser.

So you either recognize that going Bowser is going to be a poor choice and pick a character that doesn't get infinited, or you try to be a boss and pick Bowser anyway and do everything to make sure that you don't get infinited. If you try and be a boss and get infinited anyway, well, sucks to be you, doesn't it?

Well I supposes if you look at it that way then yes, but the way you worded it made it seem like if you lose a match up your character is horrible at its your fault for not playing well enough.

With your logic everyone should just use MK, because hes the best option in almost every situation.

 

[Clai]

Well I supposes if you look at it that way then yes, but the way you worded it made it seem like if you lose a match up your character is horrible at its your fault for not playing well enough.

More or less, that is what I'm saying.

With your logic everyone should just use MK, because hes the best option in almost every situation.

Not everyone has the mentality/dexterity/planning skills to use MK effectively. It's about using the character whose moveset/capabilities match best with how you think and how you move your fingers. That's why I hate people who give up on their characters and just go to MK for the whole 'play to win RIGHT NOW' mantra. For some people, it actually is the right choice and they can use MK more effectively than their other character, but for the majority, it seems to me that they're forcing MK onto themselves for no other purpose than the fact that he's the best, and I feel that's just a waste in their talents and opportunities to make a major impact in their original characters' metagame.

 

[DMG]

I disagree. MK is everyone's best character.

Leon's MK wouldn't have lost to Acid. Case in point.

 

[Anthon1996]

I got a good prediction for the next tier list:

Ganon rises to #1 because someone discovers an extremely broken tactic that everyone then (ab)uses.

...Okay, now that's just being silly. Wolf, Peach, Mario, Yoshi, Sheik, Olimar, Fox, Toon Link, Sonic and Pit will probably all rise, while DK, ICs and Dedede will probably drop. I don't see Diddy making it above Snake, though.

Is there a reason why DK doesn't win mid tier tournaments? Aren't all of his worse matchups in high tier?

If people can improve his metagame by coming up with more ways to approach rather than back-airing like a mothertrucker, maybe he would.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I got a good prediction for the next tier list:

Ganon rises to #1 because someone discovers an extremely broken tactic that everyone then (ab)uses.

...Okay, now that's just being silly. Wolf, Peach, Mario, Yoshi, Sheik, Olimar, Fox, Toon Link, Sonic and Pit will probably all rise, while DK, ICs and Dedede will probably drop. I don't see Diddy making it above Snake, though.

If people can improve his metagame by coming up with more ways to approach rather than back-airing like a mothertrucker, maybe he would.

What a random assortment of characters.

Olimar, Wolf, Yoshi, and Sonic will definitely rise at least 1 spot, but the others will stay where they are or fall. Toon link is an outlier in that list I'd be unsure of.

 

[san.]

What happened to wolf recently for him to rise? Just a quick synopsis will be helpful.

I think wolf's rise is warranted if the mains can truly prove to the community why their MK MU is so good.

 

[Raziek]

Wolf's results have been better than his position suggests.

Besides, can you honestly say Wolf should be below LUIGI?