Official BBR Tier List v5

[V]

@SFP why are you so stuck on marth having laggy kill moves? Yes his smashes are but his most common kill moves are nair and bair which aren't laggy at all. Marth also has great horizontal movement and shield breaker to get in a position for dolphin slash. If his recovery is such an issue, why are we forgetting olimar's tether recovery when placing him in A tier? What about ICs huge weakness without nana getting g*yed on counter pick stages? These honestly are worse features than those you claim marth to have. Also, which "amazing matches" is he not winning? He's been controlling snake for quite some time now for one example of an A tier character. Does marth really belong in a tier with D3 and G&W? Hell no. They've never had the success marth has. Sure, marth isn't having the success he used to, but the point is at one time HE HAD IT, and therefore is capable of winning when used correctly. In sports, when evaluating a player for the hall of fame, their performance in the past is held in just as high regard as the end of their career. In the total time brawl has been out, who has done more between marth/olimar/pikachu?

 

[Orion*]

Orion I wasn't really going for pinpoint accuracy nor do I think Snake is all that irrelevant right now. I wouldn't even try to place Snake anywhere, but I couldn't very well leave him out haha

Instead of just writing lol or random insult to this I'm going to ask you to elaborate on what you meant.

Also, the fact that Sonic can create space between his opponents quickly and close it again just as fast is where his options come from.

Irony in that dashing reduces the amount of options you have. Speed and mobility are powerful tools yes. But sonic just is meh at actually fighting, I really feel like if people just force sonic into situations where he has to just box you he will get *****.

MK, Diddy and a few other characters (like GaW and ZSS to a lesser extent) also rely a lot on the same kind of stuff that's easy to punish on paper but harder in practice, especially when you might not expect it or when it's less obvious.

Even on paper MK is pretty ****ing hard to punish. You realize you CAN punish him but that doesn't change the difficulty due to the large number of mixups that force your expected reaction to really be on point for the matchup.

Gaw and ZSS have much less mixups in less situations with less reward and it's much easier to apply this theory to them.

This is why "just PS lol" is a weird argument to me against characters like TL, ZSS etc. No matter how much people say this is possible I still watch really good players lose to Jash and mgj. We aren't talking about players who can't do stuff like PS on reaction either.

Great players can still win with characters that aren't stellar. If you outsmart your opponent to a certain degree regardless of who you are playing you can win lol. There's also the role of experience.

Ex: I sucked *** vs toonlink. Horrible matchup for me I just have no interest in playing it. I still realize MK ***** the balls of toonlink its just my own personal flaws stopping me from winning, therefore jash usually beat me.

It isn't that I'm ignoring his strengths, because he has a lot of them, but they aren't adding up to a winning combination for whatever reason. Why? Well, what are his weaknesses? Horizontal recovery, and kinda easy to gimp with a good read. Laggy smashes and kill moves. Light. No projectile. I still say he's pretty easy to camp at long-range, but whatever. It's safe to say his "amazing match-ups" are exaggerated, since he isn't winning them apparently.

You don't see marth getting gimped very often... There are plenty of characters that have worse recovery than him in A-B tier range.
His kill moves directly don't translate into being that great (although nair is soooo safe), but his setups into the are. It's not like once people get to 100% OKAY TIME TO START USING KILL MOVES. Marth is still going to zone you and force option selects

When a Mario main joins the thread to tell us Mario belongs higher on the tier list we say "OK, good attitude. Go to a tournament and prove it." When Marth mains, really good ones, can't place for months we ignore it and make excuses for them. Doesn't anyone else see the hypocrisy here? :\

I don't say that though. I just tell them why their character tools are mediocre lmao

I don't believe Diddy is much better than the other higher tiers. Deal with bananas. They aren't very fast.

I think that in the future I could see diddy go down but stay in A tier, not worse than that.

A lot of sonic's options also have scary commitments in certain situations, while others make it easier to vary the timing of vulnerability to intercept. I think it's more that even a few of Sonic's options simply screw up spacing well due to their innate mechanics, more than omg so many options.

Scary commitments? I do agree with the spacing but could you elaborate a little more lol.

Compared to MK and maybe those right underneath, a lot of the higher tiers just feel mediocre anyways. I feel as though there's a large grey area in mid-high tiers.

this is true

 

[_Kadaj_]

Diddy Kong

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I will reply to your post soon Orion but:

LMAO at D3 or GaW not having the success Marth did, SFH

 

[Shaya]

See I used to use Dedede. And in general it went from a character who "***** EVERYONE, DOESN'T REALLY LOSE TO ANYONE MUCH" to

"oh god I'm going to get timed out every match and theres nothing I can do about it". Theorycrafting accusations all you want, but at what point do you look at Marth and go "well his strengths aren't valid anymore"?

You really can't. At all.
There's a double edged sword to Marth's match ups as well, Marth is a popular tournament character and is widely used at many levels of play. Most people have Marth experience using their main because most scenes, at least, in the past, had several. However, other characters people are considering high tier at this point almost don't exist in many scenes / varied levels of play. Johning for Marth mains I'm sure, but meh.

From my experience most high level character mains who have similar level Marth experience generally agree with the MU's Marth has btw.
Other than Florida (<3), players like Rich agree Marth still has the edge, DEHF doesn't feel Falco wins even though other than unreliable 0-deaths has a much better CG in the match up; snake's all over general tip the hat. Blah blah blah yadda yadda.

Also lol @ Dedede being above Marth.

 

[etecoon]

]You can theorycraft all you want about him "relying on opponents messing up to win", but at the end of the day, he's still bringing in the money.

no, snake PLAYERS are bringing in the money. this is the same retardedness that makes scroobs think you can just pick up MK and go from bad/midlevel to winning money instantly BECUZ HES BORKEN. whether they use MK, diddy, snake, falco, or someone else, most top players could use another(reasonably good) character and still do very well, people put too much emphasis on the character in this as if the players had nothing to do with it

Fatal, Ally, Razer, MVD, and Candy (before he vanished) were all top level Snake players in my opinion.

I didn't get into it with him because everyone has a different definition/cut off point for "top" anyway and it would've been pointless, but he's probably not counting ally at this point. personally I would throw bizkit and HRNut in there at least but there's obviously two tiers, fatal and razer are clearly the top performers

Pretty much. Snake is still very good and people overate Diddy

snake is good, I just think diddy is better

People are insane because they don't know how to control naners.

diddy is above average or even best in the game in so many other categories, it's ridiculous that people still try to say that diddy is only good because of his item control. obviously he's worse than snake with no naners but it's not like he's as one dimensional as ice climbers or anything. he still has the best shield in the game, still is tied for best spot dodge, still has above average mobility, still has solid frame data on his attacks, still has a command grab, still has that ridiculous fair etc

remember back when people said Falco was 2nd best character. People found ways around Iap, lasers, and cg and now people throw Snake right above him again.

this is where the results are all that matter mentality leads, half the people that post in this thread have no real opinions of their own and will just look at who's winning right now and say that they're the best, totally disregarding what players are using what characters or any facts about the characters themselves. the last "falco is the second best character" phase I remember was when larry 6-0'd tyrant and then all of a sudden he was ****...when that stopped happening suddenly falco isn't so good. they see this as a logical way of thinking about things in spite of or maybe because they ignore how capricious they are because of it. if results are a clear indicator of character strength then why are they so transient? it gives you a rough idea, you can look at results and say META KNIGHT IS PRETTY GOOD EH? but it shouldn't be the only basis that people have for determining character strength

 

[V]

The problem with weighing so heavily on results is that you can't measure who has the most skill and humans are imperfect. But looking at the characters themselves, we can analyze fram data and movesets and more accurately assess who the best characters are. Olimar is succeeding. He still has poor recovery. Marth isn't doing as well. He still has arguably the best ledge traps and spacing in the game. I honestly think results mean hardly anything. When maiking a tier list we're assessing CHARACTERS not players and how they do with different characters. What if M2K still played marth? I bet the results would be a lot different. But that still doesn't change marth's coding in brawl. He's the same for everybody that plays him along with the rest of the cast. People fluctuate. Characters don't.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

OK, sure, but at some level your amazing tools have to translate into results or you are ROB or Kirby who "tools" never quite worked out for.

 

[Seagull Joe]

The problem with weighing so heavily on results is that you can't measure who has the most skill and humans are imperfect.

We can measure skill based off results. Look at Rajam's list. Most of it is pretty accurate.

But looking at the characters themselves, we can analyze fram data and movesets and more accurately assess who the best characters are. Olimar is succeeding. He still has poor recovery.

Olimar's recovery is negligible when Olimar as a character is harder to approach and force off stage. Even then, he can whistle and save his jump to grab edge/recover. Olimar's floatiness helps a lot with his piss poor up b.

Also, if we went solely off frame data and movesets then Sheik would be top 5 in the game, but look at her...

Marth isn't doing as well. He still has arguably the best ledge traps and spacing in the game.

No. Mk has the best ledge traps and spacing in the game. That isn't even arguable. It's not even opinion and just fact at this point.

I honestly think results mean hardly anything. When maiking a tier list we're assessing CHARACTERS not players and how they do with different characters. What if M2K still played marth? I bet the results would be a lot different. But that still doesn't change marth's coding in brawl. He's the same for everybody that plays him along with the rest of the cast. People fluctuate. Characters don't.

If we don't use results as indicators then we won't know who beats who and how they perform in settings to place them higher/lower on a tier list. If Mk never played Snake a billion times in tourney then we'd never see why/how Mk beats/is better then Snake.

If we just went by characters then it'd be a gigantic theorycraftfest and nothing would EVER be consistent.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The problem with weighing so heavily on results is that you can't measure who has the most skill and humans are imperfect. But looking at the characters themselves, we can analyze fram data and movesets and more accurately assess who the best characters are. Olimar is succeeding. He still has poor recovery. Marth isn't doing as well. He still has arguably the best ledge traps and spacing in the game. I honestly think results mean hardly anything. When maiking a tier list we're assessing CHARACTERS not players and how they do with different characters. What if M2K still played marth? I bet the results would be a lot different. But that still doesn't change marth's coding in brawl. He's the same for everybody that plays him along with the rest of the cast. People fluctuate. Characters don't.

Way i see it, results don't mean anything unless you are a high tier around here. or a character that is used so much in tourny.

 

[V]

But you have to admit marth has seen far greater results than the likes of ROB or kirby. Players have proven marth to have good enough tools to win its just they haven't done it recently. Now that pikachu and olimar have proven to be good enough to have results, so setting the timeline aside of when these characters achieved their results, how do you determine who's better? Again, you have to look at the character itself. Human performance has to many variables to make a tier list off of. So lets take the characters who have had success throughout the course of brawl;

Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco, Wario, Marth, IC, Pikachu, Olimar, D3, G&W, Lucario, and ZSS. Tell me if I'm missing anybody.

In my opinion, A and B tier should be for characters that at some point or another have had substantial success. After picking out those characters, the order and tier that they are placed in should solely be on character traits considering not 100% of these characters had their breakouts at the same time, so at this point we should judge them based only on them and not player results. Based on that criteria I think high tiers would look like this;

S: Meta Knight
A: Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco, Marth, Wario
B: IC, Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Lucario, ZSS, Game & Watch

Everybody will have their differing opinions but i can't see people making switches bigger than 2 places with the above criteria.

 

[Flayl]

I feel like Marth and Olimar should be on the same tier. Don't know who should be over who, just that it seems weird to have them a tier apart.

 

[Orion*]

OK, sure, but at some level your amazing tools have to translate into results or you are ROB or Kirby who "tools" never quite worked out for.

What tools... >_>

Their options are sooooo limited and one dimensional in comparison to marth... especially kirby.
Even outside of their direct options, look at their followups, relative safeness, damage output, frame data, zoning, grab game ect and you can tell who's a better character.

If we just went by characters then it'd be a gigantic theorycraftfest and nothing would EVER be consistent.

It depends on who you're talking to and if the people are reasonable or not lol.

 

[Steam]

But you have to admit marth has seen far greater results than the likes of ROB or kirby. Players have proven marth to have good enough tools to win its just they haven't done it recently. Now that pikachu and olimar have proven to be good enough to have results, so setting the timeline aside of when these characters achieved their results, how do you determine who's better? Again, you have to look at the character itself. Human performance has to many variables to make a tier list off of. So lets take the characters who have had success throughout the course of brawl;

Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco, Wario, Marth, IC, Pikachu, Olimar, D3, G&W, Lucario, and ZSS. Tell me if I'm missing anybody.

In my opinion, A and B tier should be for characters that at some point or another have had substantial success. After picking out those characters, the order and tier that they are placed in should solely be on character traits considering not 100% of these characters had their breakouts at the same time, so at this point we should judge them based only on them and not player results. Based on that criteria I think high tiers would look like this;

S: Meta Knight
A: Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco, Marth, Wario
B: IC, Olimar, Pikachu, King Dedede, Lucario, ZSS, Game & Watch

Everybody will have their differing opinions but i can't see people making switches bigger than 2 places with the above criteria.

this is because you're doing it wrong. you're not supposed to factor in 08 when making an '11 tier list. you only assess what's happened since the last tier list was released. Being good in 08 doesn't and shouldn't give any characters "credit" to keep them higher up.

I mean if someone suddenly discovered MK had an infinite on snake out of nado and snake suddenly died results-wise we wouldn't keep him higher up just because he used to be good >.> It's happened to a much less degree but marth has had the issue of his Metagame not really going anywhere. people have figured him out while others are still progressing. he's not as potent as he once was and is long overdue for a trip to B-tier

 

[V]

marth has had the issue of his Metagame not really going anywhere

So has MK. And Snake. And Falco. And IC. Why does a character have to be constantly changing to not drop? If a character's metagame is fully developed but his metagame makes him a threat in the competitive environment, why does it matter? Once again if by dropping him to B tier you mean the gap between him and the top 4 is large enough to warrant a separation of tiers I actually agree with that but moving Pikachu, Olimar, and IC above him makes no sense even if pika/oli are performing well. I mean, besides ESAM, what pikachu main is doing very well? Not only that, but prior to MLG, what was Pikachu doing to grant him a rise? He still isn't A tier with falco, diddy, and snake. I guess I'd be ok if the next tier list went something like;

S: Meta Knight
A: Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco
B: Marth/Wario/Olimar, Pikachu, IC, King Dedede, Lucario, ZSS, G&W

Idk if D3 and lower should be in the same tier but I guess this is pretty accurate.

 

[Spelt]

you only assess what's happened since the last tier list was released.

no .

 

[Steam]

So has MK. And Snake. And Falco. And IC. Why does a character have to be constantly changing to not drop? If a character's metagame is fully developed but his metagame makes him a threat in the competitive environment, why does it matter? Once again if by dropping him to B tier you mean the gap between him and the top 4 is large enough to warrant a separation of tiers I actually agree with that but moving Pikachu, Olimar, and IC above him makes no sense even if pika/oli are performing well. I mean, besides ESAM, what pikachu main is doing very well? Not only that, but prior to MLG, what was Pikachu doing to grant him a rise? He still isn't A tier with falco, diddy, and snake. I guess I'd be ok if the next tier list went something like;

S: Meta Knight
A: Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco
B: Marth/Wario/Olimar, Pikachu, IC, King Dedede, Lucario, ZSS, G&W

Idk if D3 and lower should be in the same tier but I guess this is pretty accurate.

that's not the point (although the top four have progressed). I was just explaining why marth isn't as good as he once was, people have figured him out and he hasn't responded and results reflect this.

 

[Tagxy]

SFH you seem new to the tournament scene. I suggest following results for a little way before drawing conclusions about results.

The fact that Snake is that high absolutely makes me lol, If you where going to do it that way

SS. MK
S. Diddy
A. Falco/ICs/Marth
B. Oli/Wario/Snake

makes more sense to me

MK obviously is a tier above diddy so I can't put them both in S
Diddy is significantly better than marth so it's weird having them in the same tier (unless you think he loses to peach and weegee also lmao in that case they could all be A for what I care).

Yet having marth in the tier with falco, ect seems fine because he has relatively great MUs across the board, and so do all of the other characters in that tier.

Oli/wario/snake are all great characters but have flaws that are to abusable for me to want to put them in A.

I could reasonably see changes in Diddy going into the same tier w/ falco, marth or ICs dropping to Snake/oli tier but they would be at the top of those IMO.

No offense, but this list doesnt seem to consider results at all, and seems almost fully theorycrafted.

To the "X character shouldnt move down based on their poor results because his MU's/tools are too good" group, theorycraft on its own simply is not a reliable way to rank characters in a non-subjective way. When characters like pikachu/olimar start performing consistently better than marth/ICs, etc. you have to start asking why, and suggestions such as "marth/ICs MUs and/or tools were overrated and/or have gotten worse; Oli/Pika MU's and/or were underrated and/or have gotten better" need to be considered. Sometimes a character doesnt get worse, they just get surpassed.

Right now as steam suggested it feels like were holding DDD up based on his 08 status.

 

[Nike.]

How come everybody is saying that Pikachu needs a rise? Because one player is placing extremely well with him?

What about Mr. R and Leon, 2 of the top4 players in a continent? Do their results not count or something?

Mikehaze is still placing high at all of his local tournies, but there all posted on AiB and not the boards. Do we just ignore that?

EDIT: What about Neo? He just got back into the game and is already placing well in one of the toughest regions.

 

[Conviction]

Wow I never really seen any Marth mains post in here, and I thought none of them would stick up for him.

 

[Steam]

How come everybody is saying that Pikachu needs a rise? Because one player is placing extremely well with him?

What about Mr. R and Leon, 2 of the top4 players in a continent? Do their results not count or something?

Mikehaze is still placing high at all of his local tournies, but there all posted on AiB and not the boards. Do we just ignore that?

EDIT: What about Neo? He just got back into the game and is already placing well in one of the toughest regions.

North America and European scenes are seperate, therefore Europe should get their own tier list IMO. also IMO the US MKs are much stronger than EU and there are a lot more of them here so those marths probably wouldn't do as well.

and who cares if Mikehaze finishes high in locals even in socal? that's to be expected SOMEWHERE from everyone in A and B tier and even lower. June's Lucario pretty much always gets top 2 in MD/VA. Trela always does good in texas. A ZSS user and a Pikachu user pretty much dominate florida. To justify an Atier placing with results you really have to look at regionals/nationals. even if it is SoCal.

 

[san.]

All of the top mid tier mains win or place high at their locals.

 

[Mr-R]

who cares? do u know how tough a region socal is, for mike to be placing even top 5 consistantly is already really impressive

 

[Tagxy]

Mike does well locally, regionally, and nationally. He's been the only marth in the US to do well at a national in brawls history iirc.

 

[Conviction]

Really? That is interesting.

 

[Steam]

who cares? do u know how tough a region socal is, for mike to be placing even top 5 consistantly is already really impressive

It is a tough region, but plenty of other characters do well in tough regions... I mean rich brown does very good in SoCal as well... doesn't automatically make olimar Atier...

if SoCal was so retardedly tough then he wouldn't have all that hard of a time making it really far in nationals on a regular basis

 

[Tagxy]

Granted part of the argument for pikachu rising is that hes had 3 players do well at nationals, and two have done so consistently.

Side note on an old post, but rich doesnt think marth has an advantage over olimar.

Also I think doing well in a tough region does have merit.

 

[Steam]

Also I think doing well in a tough region does have merit.

It would if we were talking about a character in like Ctier... but in order to maintain a 5/6/7 placing you pretty much have to be a factor in most national tourneys :/

 

[Ripple]

mikehaze has not been reported to have won money within the last 5 months

 

[Chuee]

http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=11875
=D

 

[Shaya]

Side note on an old post, but rich doesnt think marth has an advantage over olimar.

He did at the time of the match up chart release.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Marth is a very good and solid character, the only character that really holds him back.... is Metaknight...

 

[Nike.]

Mike does well locally, regionally, and nationally. He's been the only marth in the US to do well at a national in brawls history iirc.

And how is this any different than ESAM doing the same with Pikachu?

It's not. (except doing well at a national in brawl's history because Anther was ****, but the new tier list is going only as far as september).

So how does that give us a reason to put Pikachu over Marth? Olimar actually has a pretty good case because alot of them have been stepping up lately. I still think Marth is better than Olimar, but multiple Olimars are doing really well.

Not Pikachu.

North America and European scenes are seperate, therefore Europe should get their own tier list IMO. also IMO the US MKs are much stronger than EU and there are a lot more of them here so those marths probably wouldn't do as well.

That's the whole USA/EU debate again. But, the tier list still represents both regions. Until EU has it's own tier list (which I'm not exactly against, heck it might be a great idea), their metagame is going to influence it. Ignoring them because "thier metagame isn't as good as ours because 2 players play super aggressive" is wrong.

You also just said that Marth's in EU don't do as well because they don't have good Metaknights. I could've swore I just read a big debate here recently about how Marth's aren't losing to Metaknight's but are losing to matchup's they win (which I agree with).

Which one is it?

 

[Steam]

I said wouldn't, as in if the EU marth's were to hypothetically be immersed in the US metagame... but yeah your wolfs,DKs,RoBs are always issues too.

and there's really no reason for them to not be separated... EU never comes to US and US never goes to EU... they're really separate metagames and should have separate tier lists.

 

[x After Dawn x]

mikehaze has not been reported to have won money within the last 5 months

gj stating something that isn't true...?

 

[Kinzer]

People always tell me sonic has 1005935 options...
Then i watch sonic mains and they just run away and abuse the fact that people can't deal with charging spin dash >_>

You have to recognize that with even an infinite amount of options at any one given time, there are just certain strategies that are more effect. Ya know?

gj stating something that isn't true...?

Take it easy, I don't think he meant that as an insult.

 

[Tagxy]

I dont think the EU has ever been considered with the US for our tier lists from what Ive heard.

And how is this any different than ESAM doing the same with Pikachu?

It's not. (except doing well at a national in brawl's history because Anther was ****, but the new tier list is going only as far as september).

So how does that give us a reason to put Pikachu over Marth? Olimar actually has a pretty good case because alot of them have been stepping up lately. I still think Marth is better than Olimar, but multiple Olimars are doing really well.

Not Pikachu.

It's relevant because the tier list is not a results chart, as were constantly reminded of by those who believe pikachu and olimar should not rise.

In my opinion, more odd than using a player who has achieved great success with a character as an example of that characters potential and tools, is relying on invisible players that dont exist as a way of describing a different characters 'potential' and tools, which many in here have had no issue with. aka. I dont see how appealing to theorycraft for an argument can be tolerated but appealing to players that have applied theory into results is somehow to be disregarded.

I could understand if such a player and their character were 'figured out' and gradually received worse results like DDD and ROB, because then they would have a counterargument. But pikachu didnt have a falling out, instead two of the best players just stopped playing.

 

[Spelt]

I dont think the EU has ever been considered with the US for our tier lists from what Ive heard.

that doesn't mean it's right.

 

[Tagxy]

Maybe, but at least in regards to the tier list its not something to consider.

 

[Spelt]

No, it's something to consider completely.
We're basically acting like they don't exist...

I could understand not incorporating a region like japan or something since we really have no reliable way to communicate with the players there, but a bunch of the top EU players post on smashboards consistently, and some of them are even in the BBR.

There's really no excuse for not including their results into the tier list.