Official BBR Tier List v5

[MJG]

Toon Link is awful. Get's shut down simply by power shielding.

No SwAg

 

[Steam]

you can't say all the potential marth mains go MK... he's the 3rd most played character and still brings in less money than characters who see half the usage

 

[Poltergust]

3rd most played? I've seen more Toon Links and Peaches than I have Marths.

 

[Steam]

3rd most played? I've seen more Toon Links and Peaches than I have Marths.

ripple's thread doesn't lie

 

[x After Dawn x]

3rd most played? I've seen more toon links and peaches than i have marths.

LOOOOOOOOOOOL ok

 

[Poltergust]

Er... does that list include secondary usage as well? I haven't seen Marth in a long time, other than Nike.

 

[Steam]

Er... does that list include secondary usage as well? I haven't seen Marth in a long time, other than Nike.

not sure :L

but yeah he's used even more than diddy and Falco and ICs lol

and brings in muuuuuch less money...

 

[V]

Because he's much more difficult to play well and has a high learning curve compared to the likes of falco. After a month of practicing falco and marth most people would probably have much greater success with falco.

Its one thing being able to hit with the tip in training mode. Its another thing doing it on a human. Besides marth has to play differently in every mu whereas falco's general gameplay is standard across the cast for the most part.

 

[Steam]

Johns johns johns johns

I see how you feel.

 

[stingers]

lmao @ steams sig
what?

 

[Meru.]

EUROPE PREVAILS YET AGAIN.

From Sweden with <3

 

[V]

I see how you feel.

No johns only valid reasons for marth's lack of success. Its not the character its the players playing him. He has all the tools its just that people aren't using them to its full potential.

Mr. R, leon, and anaky need to come here for a national tourney along with calzorz, kaos, gluttony, kasper, blub, luigi player, and istudying.

 

[Tagxy]

Actually, if you look at the ratio, when IC's have a disadvantage that disadvantage does tend to be greater.
The issue is as I said previously, marth doesn't shut anyone down, nor does he get shut down.
This creates the illusion of those characters having genuinely better ratio when they really do not, outside of those you mentioned, Falco and Diddy ar the only one's I cold agree with but Snake and IC's? Nope.

I think the real issue is that many believe Marths MU ratios to be overrated. However I think people underrate the importance of how well marth does vs MK and Snake compared to wario and ICs.

Speaking of, does anyone else believe marth to have a better MU against MK than ICs? Worse? The same?

 

[DMG]

IMO they have a relatively similar MU.

 

[Chuee]

lmao @ steams sig
what?

Typo by Pierce.

 

[stingers]

EU is officially the best at smashboards

 

[Steam]

No johns only valid reasons for marth's lack of success. Its not the character its the players playing him. He has all the tools its just that people aren't using them to its full potential.

Mr. R, leon, and anaky need to come here for a national tourney along with calzorz, kaos, gluttony, kasper, blub, luigi player, and istudying.

same excuse peach players always give.

also it's not lucario's fault he isn't A tier, it's the players' fault he isn't being used to his full potential.

 

[V]

Isn't it 45:55 for both of them?

 

[SupaSairentoZ7℠]

Typo by Pierce.

Haha I still remember everyone quoting on that. Especially Fuujin. XD

 

[Browny]

Sigh had a big post but lost it coz of crashboards.

Basically, marth johns as per usual. So ****ing sick of this 'tools' argument as an excuse as to why a character is secretly good. its the absolute worst, baseless, unproveable theory plauging these boards. You have no hope in hell of ever proving that marth, when played to an inhuman perfection, is more viable than a perfect any other character.

If after 38 months, marths players are still unable to use him 'correctly', its time to accept the reason why he cant win, is the EXACT SAME reason why b and c tier characters cant win, theyre limited by the character. Your 'arguments' about player skill keeping marth back are 100% invalid as it applies to all 37 and you have no chance of showing how it affects marth more than anyone outside of complete bias.

The lack of logic is disgusting when people suggest chatacters like wario/oli/ics are limited by the character, but marth is only limited by the player. That spells pure bias no matter which way you look at it.

---

Marth has no right to share a tier with diddy, falco or snake. absolutely none.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I do think that argument is technically valid, because you can't argue the fact that any character would play differently under "inhumanly perfect" conditions. The problem with it is that it doesn't say to what extent it is valid, and it says nothing about how good Marth can be "in theory" in direct relative comparison to how good other characters can be in theory. And the worst part about it is that you can't prove any of the answers to these problems.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sigh had a big post but lost it coz of crashboards.

Yeah that sucks.

Basically, marth johns as per usual. So ****ing sick of this 'tools' argument as an excuse as to why a character is secretly good. its the absolute worst, baseless, unproveable theory plauging these boards. You have no hope in hell of ever proving that marth, when played to an inhuman perfection, is more viable than a perfect any other character.

you do realize you made such arguments back when Sonic was considered the 7th(?) worst character in the gamein an effort to reveal information and understanding and to improve his standing right?
Frankly you only come off as hypocritical when you do your typical "theorycraters womg" BS.

In anycase, yes, the characters tools are important. Frankly, it was people like you who were saying "Snake is the best character in the game" despite the many arguments regarding MK's ; note the magic word; tools!

You mad son.

If after 38 months, marths players are still unable to use him 'correctly', its time to accept the reason why he cant win, is the EXACT SAME reason why b and c tier characters cant win, theyre limited by the character. Your 'arguments' about player skill keeping marth back are 100% invalid as it applies to all 37 and you have no chance of showing how it affects marth more than anyone outside of complete bias.

After 38 months, Snake is still 2nd best in the tierlist despite everything saying otherwise.
Dare we say that this is proof that Snake is 2nd best, or that people, such as yourself, are so incredibly stubborn they refuse to believe anything else?

We know the issues with Marth and stated them, why is it that you are dancing about those points rather than addressing them in themselves.

If you had to choose between Marth and IC's and had equal skillw ith both, you would play IC's, even if it was a disadvantaged matchup, why? Simply because of the fact that IC's have an extremely powerful ability, something that places mental pressure on your opponent.

Think about it, which sounds more impressive.
I can 0-death any character with a single grab, OR,
I can space you to death over the course of 5 minutes.

The lack of logic is disgusting when people suggest chatacters like wario/oli/ics are limited by the character, but marth is only limited by the player. That spells pure bias no matter which way you look at it.

tl;dr: They don't agree with me. IM MAD! RAWR

---

Marth has no right to share a tier with diddy, falco or snake. absolutely none.

All you gotta do is Dtilt right?

 

[Browny]

Yes it was valid.






In 2008/2009.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yes it was valid.

In 2008/2009.

No idea what you are addressing.

 

[Browny]

Not you. (as in, afterdawn)

I aint mad as much as marth is bad.

 

[Shaya]

People generally agree Marth loses to D3, but others don't.
There is mostly acceptance on MK and Diddy though.

Browny is such an annoying troll on the boards, I don't know why people bother to still reply to him :\

Also I think Diddy's match up spread is better than Marths.
He's probably 3rdish over all. Snake/ICs come close/may be better.

Snake and ICs both come down to mixed opinions.
Some people think Snake loses to MK, Marth, Falco, Wario, Diddy, Olimar, Dedede; pretty much the entire cast.
ICs's seems to lose to lose... maybe not... to MK, Snake, Diddy?, Toon Link, Lucario, ZSS, etc etc people used to think they lost to Zelda.

 

[Browny]

Pretty sure if my not sharing others' opinions makes me a troll, then anyone who doesnt share my opinion is equally as much a troll.



Or, I could sit here and rant about how lucario has all the tools to win, the only thing holding him back is his players because of his learning curve, characters above him are permanently limited by their flaws while lucario can work around all of his to negate them completely and that he is undeniably A tier because I said so.

Whatever you prefer.

 

[V]

I'm fine if everybody thinks the gap between the top 4 and the other characters in A tier is big enough to separate the tiers but pikachu, olimar and ICs shouldn't be placed above marth. Marth may have average features but he's solid enough that his worst mu is 45:55. It doesn't matter what game it is, that makes for one of the best characters. Hell wario only beats ganon like 60:40 right? Marth beats him 80:20. And people are saying marth doesn't **** anybody because all he does is space people. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this game all about spacing? That's all mk does its just his features are all waaay better than marth's save killing power and shield drop punishments. Falco's lasers? Space control. Diddy's banana's? Space control. Grenades? Space control. The only difference is marth can't do it from a distance like they can. Neither can mk but like I said his options outclass marth's by a substantial margin. Even if marth is ordinary in a game with bananas and grenades, the effectiveness of his ordinary spacing shouldn't be overlooked. And besides the top 4, who spaces better than marth? Wario maybe? Marth is A tier.

 

[Steam]

Wario has no spacing whatsoever. he's bait and punish.

also I'd say marth is B tier now simply because of how his placings have dropped off the face of the earth. some characters can look really good on paper (Rob,DK, GW) but be mediocre in practice. I think as the metagame has evolved people have figured marth out and marth hasn't really "progressed" and it shows by his lack of placings.

Sonic WAS **** tier material back in 08, but his metagame evolved and he got placings. warranting him mid tier status

 

[V]

I'm ok with B tier if he's first or second behind wario with A tier capping with falco. If marth drops to B tier what would the new B tier look like?

 

[Steam]

I'm ok with B tier if he's first or second behind wario with A tier capping with falco. If marth drops to B tier what would the new B tier look like?

A tier: Diddy, Snake, Falco, Olimar/Pikachu, Wario
B tier: ICs, Marth, D3, Lucario, ZSS, G&W

 

[Orion*]

US Snakes are just trash ]

I could believe falco or diddy. ICs im kinda on the fence man idk :/

Snake sucks I'm sorry.

Agreed with about 99% of the stuff you said

you can't say all the potential marth mains go MK... he's the 3rd most played character and still brings in less money than characters who see half the usage

I don't really think about placings or results in this... Bad players using good characters won't place regardless lol

IMO they have a relatively similar MU.

I think Marth is slightly easier if only because ICs are much easier to gimp and time out (plus CPs are gay as hell)
But it's relatively the same

You have no hope in hell of ever proving that marth, when played to an inhuman perfection, is more viable than a perfect any other character.

Nobody can really do that for any character, you can only state your opinion, and back it with reasons, and maybe some data. But in the end that's all it is, its not like nothing can change or it's clean or something.

You really are annoying because you refuse to look past your own view and only look at things in one way LOOL

 

[C.J.]

Okay, I understand everyone's argument about Marth going down, which is pretty much just placings, right?

Likewise, Olimar/Pikachu are going up, mainly because of placings, is that correct too?
And since ripple/john#s chart is being brought up a lot, I actually went to look at it. Based on money won/average percentage won/etc to character use, oli/pika aren't really doing better than Marth. Yes, Marth has a lot more uses than them, about double actually. However, Pika/Oli have pretty much half the winnings as Marth does. Granted, it isn't exactly even and is slightly in Pika/Oli's favor.

However, IC, with an equal number of uses to Oli, and less than Pika, has significantly more money won than those two (inb4somethingallyrelated) and both Pika and Oli are going past them as well.

Finally, they're surpassing Wario additionally, who has a few more uses (something like 40 compared to Marth's 120) but still has a LOT more won than those two. More than double the amount.

If you guys want to put pika/oli ahead of Marth, that's fine. I can't say I necessarily disagree. But, why are they going past Wario and IC (inb4allyskewedthedataagain) if you follow the same logic.

*Waits to be happily corrected by people who know a lot more than I do. =)

EDIT: I definitely agree with Marth not sharing a tier with Diddy/Falco though.

 

[V]

I don't get why results are held so high when in results ganon is like 6th from the bottom but everybody ackowledges him as the worst character in the game. Why the difference? Because when he is used, he's used to a greater potential than what he is assumed to do. Why is marth not placing? Because players aren't playing to his potential. Tell me, if the only reason is to move oli/pika over marth is results, why doesn't ganon get a significant bump? And if you take results out, what's the reason to move them over marth in the first place?

 

[Spelt]

I don't get why results are held so high when in results ganon is like 6th from the bottom but everybody ackowledges him as the worst character in the game. Why the difference?

Everybody on the results hype train just conveniently ignores this fact.

 

[V]

The problem with results is that we don't play round robin tourneys where everybody good plays eachother and we get a good idea of how characters do. What would be cool is if we did an invite only round robin with the top players for each character.

 

[Judo777]

@Browny if you honestly think that Marth doesn't suffer from that then why is it that most of the top level marths in the nation also play MK and use him quite often in tourney? You can't possibly pretend that there isn't a correlation. MK allows Marth players to a play similar style of play and get better results so why wouldn't you play MK?

I also happen to know of quite a large number of Marth's that switched their main to MK.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I used to think Lucario beat Ice Climbers, and oddly enough most Icy mains thought they beat Lucario.

No I think it's even, I don't think he can separate and **** as easily as I thought, but for what he does, I can see him having an advantage maybe if I argued the stage list or separating vs getting grabbed but I feel that is pushing it a tad.

Even is fine.

~

As for the character stuff I tend to look at what each character can do proven and some theory involved since, I can't argue in person all day when sometimes it doesn't happen often or it's limited to players. With Marth I dunno, I feel like there are some legit claims to his lack of placing but I can see why this doesn't suffice with people when we have had this song and dance with Pit before.

Who knows, I'll think about it another time, but just my 2 cents.

 

[Steam]

Okay, I understand everyone's argument about Marth going down, which is pretty much just placings, right?

Likewise, Olimar/Pikachu are going up, mainly because of placings, is that correct too?
And since ripple/john#s chart is being brought up a lot, I actually went to look at it. Based on money won/average percentage won/etc to character use, oli/pika aren't really doing better than Marth. Yes, Marth has a lot more uses than them, about double actually. However, Pika/Oli have pretty much half the winnings as Marth does. Granted, it isn't exactly even and is slightly in Pika/Oli's favor.

not even close to double... 3.1% of earnings from marth vs. around 2.5% from olimar/pika... but yeah

and the problem with players not playing to their potential could be brought up for every character... along with various other johns...

Lucario would be obviously be ****** tournies if Azen, Lee, Zucco, Stauffy, and Ksizzle didn't quit luc/brawl so we should give him benefeit of the doubt and put him in Atier.

edit: honestly the reason Ganon has actually won money is because... he's ganon so good players are more inclined to play him for the lulz because he's so manly. so occaisionally a ganon will get played early in bracket or something and that person will go on to win money. characters like Link have the issue of being horrible and being unloved.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He also requires you to learn a bunch of AT's and knowing how to use his moves, which still ends up as a low tier when you get down to it.