Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Marth is not A tier.
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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
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Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
I don't see why Pikachu would be above Wario. He loses the matchup and loses to Olimar and Diddy. Wario has a +1 vs Diddy and Pikachu. He is even with Falco (With cg) and even with Snake. He doesn't get as hard countered by D3 as Pikachu does by Lucario/Olimar. Olimar is definitely top 5 or 6. Either above Wario or below. Doesn't matter.
Marth is low tier in the high tier. He just doesn't compare to the top tiers. He is insanely average. He has no special gimmicks or anything special accelerating his performance. He belongs at the top of B tier or lower.
Marth is low tier in the high tier. He just doesn't compare to the top tiers. He is insanely average. He has no special gimmicks or anything special accelerating his performance. He belongs at the top of B tier or lower.
Anything special accelerating his performance?
What does MK have specifically?
Amazing stage selection in a constantly being reduced stage list?
Ledge camping which is restricted through various rules?
Is his gimmick just being really good or something?
There are two characters people agree Marth lose to.
MK and Diddy. Marth has respectable character v character results otherwise.
While I may agree that A tier is a mixture of only the top 4, I don't think Marth's [a tier] below ICs or Wario (unless I'm missing some epic tournament results?). I feel at this point it's something like
1: MK
2: Diddy, Snake, Falco
3: [no real order] Marth, Ics, Wario, Pikachu, Olimar
I'm likely to feel that the gap between diddy and mk is not so large as it had felt in the past between MK and Snake, but I'm not sold on a notable tier separation of MK/Diddy, etc (but it would probably be more agreeable to me personally now I think about it - MK and Diddy seriously seem to be a strong cut above the rest, and having snake + falco with the rest of my 3s doesn't seem too far fetched)
What does MK have specifically?
Amazing stage selection in a constantly being reduced stage list?
Ledge camping which is restricted through various rules?
Is his gimmick just being really good or something?
There are two characters people agree Marth lose to.
MK and Diddy. Marth has respectable character v character results otherwise.
While I may agree that A tier is a mixture of only the top 4, I don't think Marth's [a tier] below ICs or Wario (unless I'm missing some epic tournament results?). I feel at this point it's something like
1: MK
2: Diddy, Snake, Falco
3: [no real order] Marth, Ics, Wario, Pikachu, Olimar
I'm likely to feel that the gap between diddy and mk is not so large as it had felt in the past between MK and Snake, but I'm not sold on a notable tier separation of MK/Diddy, etc (but it would probably be more agreeable to me personally now I think about it - MK and Diddy seriously seem to be a strong cut above the rest, and having snake + falco with the rest of my 3s doesn't seem too far fetched)
Tagxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,482
Pikachu doesnt get hard countered. While olimar and lucario are tough MU's, he doesnt have to deal with anything as gay as being chaingrabbed and grab released. Olimar vs pika is probably close to the same difficulty (at worst).
Performance aside, assuming pikachu were to move above wario it would be because of his solid MU's with the commonly accepted four best characters in the game. As I mentioned before theres a solid case for him having the best MU's with MK/Snake/Diddy/Falco as a group of anyone outside those 4.
Performance aside, assuming pikachu were to move above wario it would be because of his solid MU's with the commonly accepted four best characters in the game. As I mentioned before theres a solid case for him having the best MU's with MK/Snake/Diddy/Falco as a group of anyone outside those 4.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Wario doesn't lose to anyone other then Mk (-1), while Pikachu loses to Diddy and Mk. Ics also have a similar spread towards the top 4. Pikachu is still severly overated.
And@Shaya, Marth loses to D3 as well. Hell, I think Wolf maybe +1 with Marth LMAO.
Why does marth have to be gimmicky to hang with A tier? He has solid matchups with everybody. I was talking with tyrant at mike's last tournament and he thinks mk vs marth is only 55/45 which would mean marth's mus against the top 4 look like...
MK: 45:55
Diddy: 45:55
Snake: 55:45
Falco: 55:45
If you're so confident that marth is B tier than A tier should cut off at falco (maybe wario) with marth at the top of b tier but the performances that mike, mr. r, and leon all have against top mk's solidify the mu is no worse than 45:55 and that he shouldn't move down.
Maybe if pierce shared his knowledge in the diddy mu it would go back to even or slightly in our favor.
MK: 45:55
Diddy: 45:55
Snake: 55:45
Falco: 55:45
If you're so confident that marth is B tier than A tier should cut off at falco (maybe wario) with marth at the top of b tier but the performances that mike, mr. r, and leon all have against top mk's solidify the mu is no worse than 45:55 and that he shouldn't move down.
Maybe if pierce shared his knowledge in the diddy mu it would go back to even or slightly in our favor.
marth does abnormally well(that is, he doesn't get compleeetely curb stomped) against the top 4 or 5 characters but paradoxically goes even with and loses to random mid tier characters, he's not amazing overall, just has a lot of solid tools that make most of his matchups closeish. I would definitely consider ice climbers, olimar, and maybe pikachu better. pikachu is really hard to place I always change my mind lol
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I thought most people agreed that Marth loses to D3 as well (slight, but still significant), has that changed?
And then there's the debatables like DK, ROB, and ICs, but I won't dabble into those since everyone goes up in arms when this gets brought up XD
@Gheb: according to -1 MK/Diddy and +1 Snake/falco, that's disadvantage MK/Diddy and advantage Snake/Falco, idk why an inverse of the same number =/= inverse according to that lol.
Marth's pretty long streak against Snake (at least here anyways, sadly Japan doesn't seem to use Marth so I can't say that it's accurate to use them as a template, and EU I hear it goes back and forth) indicates a definite, although small, advantage. Falco has always been fairly good for Marth, but falco's solid enough to generally pull off wins as well.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
Why? He probably has the best matchup ratio after metaknight lmao
Atomsk_92
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 6,362
ZSS TL and Kirby shouldn't be as high as you're all assuming.
Stop assuming that EU MK's are on the same level of America's
Stop assuming that EU MK's are on the same level of America's
marth beats snake. even with falco, slight losses to MK and diddy, and beating snake is better than what most characters have going for them
Orion*
Smash Researcher
Sounds like ZSS 
zeldasmash
Smash Lord
Cannot and will not. I know he has many flaws but just because of his recovery (the flaw you guys primarily set your eyes to) you put him in bottom 4. At least move him to bottom E or lead F but get him out of the bottom 4 or 3.
Steam
Smash Hero
go prove it then.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
His jab is frame 7. That's almost as good as Ganons!
Do you think Wolf deserves a rise Atomsk?
Steam
Smash Hero
I also should add that Marth ranks below like all of Atier in money won while having about twice as much usage in most cases... If you divide the money won by number of uses he's even doing worse than lucario and about as good as ZSS XD
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Wrecked by camping, laggy kill moves, light, piss horizontal recovery, bad results at least in the US. He's OK, top of B tier or so.
Kuraudo
4Aerith
Oh ****. I thought you were Alphicans for a second. LOL
Wrecked by camping? Maybe hindered but not wrecked. And correction, laggy smashes. Most marth's kill with nair and bair which aren't very laggy and good marth's don't just throw out smashes. I would be ok saying he's top of B tier so long as A tier ends with falco or wario. Pikachu, Olimar, and ICs aren't on the same level as the top 4.
@atomsk
Kaos is pretty good. Maybe not like M2K, anti, tyrant, dojo, and lee level but he's up there. I hope EU comes out to either genesis or apex.
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 11,841
like, the only thing true in all of this is the bad results...
Mr-R
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 2,544
actually marth is one of the few chars that can play well against camping chars, he has plenty of non laggy kill moves and his recovery is actually pretty good if u know how to recover with it. he's defintely in A
Steam
Smash Hero
well he is light... and he does have bad horizontal recovery.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Marths no question A tier. Marth has great MU's and tbh the only reason he doesn't have better results is because he suffers from jigglypuff syndrome (why the hell would you pick jigglypuff when you can just pick Wario whos way better) obv relates to MK.
Also olimar is not that good. Olimar is a good character but Olimar has some humongous shortcomings.
Also olimar is not that good. Olimar is a good character but Olimar has some humongous shortcomings.
I don't really understand how he is wrecked by camping when he is one of the few characters in the game that can actually approach and remain somewhat safe... But please elaborate.
His smashes are very laggy. This is true. Luckily there's nair (kills quite early) and bair (tips everything forever and outranges pretty much every move in the game). Additionally, Marth has one of the better gimping games out there.
He is light... annoyingly light. Luckily he can juggle the heavier characters (everyone but Kirby and MK actually) fairly well, and if he gets them on the ledge, his ledge traps are second to MK's... maybe. But yes, he is light. Luckily he can offset that weakness pretty easily.
He's super floaty, and has pretty decent aerial mobility. Add this to SB (not the ******** fully charged one, but a boosted uncharged one) and he hardly has bad horizontal recovery. It's not great by any means, but definitely not bad, let alone "piss [poor]."
Touche @ results good sir. You've trumped me there.
inb4marthmainbias
Steam
Smash Hero
he's 27th... lighter than Tink and diddy... he's a lightweight.
and compared to the rest of the roster his horizontal recovery is rather piss. as in, it's actually an issue.
he's also pretty linear
Orion*
Smash Researcher
Wrecked by camping? yet he can approach safely in comparison to the rest of the cast
Laggy kill moves? he has that broken *** upB oos, safe killing moves like nair2, and great setups into them if you don't get greedy.
Bad horizontal recovery? Cool story, recovering horizontally is pretty risky anyway with like everyone... He has amazing horizontal movement and a pretty safe/good upB to recover low with. See m2k in melee son lmao
He's pretty light, I will agree with that. He's also relatively safe so it kinda offsets
But results =/= character potential, I'm really just looking at how the game is played at top level. But it's not like marth has nobody playing for him at all, Mikehaze is pretty consistent as far US results go.
Either way answering like that seems 2dimensional. I could just go lol MK sucks because he's light and has poor air mobility just abuse that and it doesn't look at how good the character is to avoid those inherent flaws.
He has great horizontal movement in the air, which almost always allows him to recover low with his invincible upB.
KT Kasrani
Smash Champion
shut ur dam mouth
Browny
Smash Hater
This would make a perfect entry for 'deluded' into urbandictionary, it covers all aspects of the words meaning succintly.
There is only one undeniable reason why marth get poor results; because many marth players cant ****ing win with him. The exact same reason why tl, zss, lucario, g+w etc are only b tier.
That biased excuse to cover up marths failures is the biggest john of all time. It isnt a reason that marth is similar to mk, thus people use mk instead. Its called mk is superior to marth, so people use him. Attempting to apply this reasoning to marth only is pure bias, it applies to EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER AND YOU HAVE NO HOPE OF PROVING IT AFFECTS MARTH MORE THAN ANY OTHER CHARACTER.
If mk was mid tier and his mains switched, marths would still get knocked out, exactly how they do right now, by a huge bunch of characters which his matchups arent actually that good against. Pay attention to a major tourney stream sometime and see for yourself.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
Sorry I'm not in this deluded world where snake is still top of ALOL no
Nice one dimensional view point. Do people offline talk to you like that?
Not to say I agree or disagree but...
It could be both. Or a shade of grey.
Better than streaming I would recommend people play the game and go to these tournaments
Snake's match-ups are superior to Marth's as are Falco's and don't get me even started on Diddy Kong. IC have either less or about the same amount of match-ups in the opponents favor but shut down almost everything WAY harder than Marth could ever hope to. And I'm not even being subjective here otherwise I'd add other characters in my list as well but saying that only MK has better match-ups than Marth is a hundred times more delusional than Snake being top of A [which he obviously is - US Snakes are just trash ]
]
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Would that mean you would fall under the definition of...a troll? I cannot imagine you were serious.
This can be said for anyone, yo do realize this yes?
The issue is Marth is well...Marth. He is a solidly made character but has nothing extreme that aid in him winning.
MK has...el everything.
IC's have the psychological factor of the CG.
Snake is snake.
Didy has the nannerz
Caps locks bro.
They make your point, EXTRMELY POWERFUL!
You really need to play the game.
Marth's matchups are arguably the second best in the game.
The only reason people argue otherwise is becase none of his matchups are genuine hard counters as some of the other A tier characters.
He is essentially a Yun with a bunch of Chun-Li's with him.
He doesn't lose to anyone, but he doens't destroy anyone either.
No.
Just...no
Actually, if you look at the ratio, when IC's have a disadvantage that disadvantage does tend to be greater.as are Falco's and don't get me even started on Diddy Kong. IC have either less or about the same amount of match-ups in the opponents favor but shut down almost everything WAY harder than Marth could ever hope to. And I'm not even being subjective here otherwise I'd add other characters in my list as well but saying that only MK has better match-ups than Marth is a hundred times more delusional than Snake being top of A [which he obviously is - US Snakes are just trash
The issue is as I said previously, marth doesn't shut anyone down, nor does he get shut down.
This creates the illusion of those characters having genuinely better ratio when they really do not, outside of those you mentioned, Falco and Diddy ar the only one's I cold agree with but Snake and IC's? Nope.
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