Official BBR Tier List v5

[Supermodel From Paris]

All I know is, in Melee, the top 6 characters all have some degree of success but Brawl Marth never does.

 

[V]

Mike does just fine along with EU's marth mains. Never?

 

[Shaya]

Not many characters have had break out successes more than once.

Falco has won apex. Did mediocre at every MLG.
Pikachu did well at MLG, from one character main.
ZSS did well at MLG once, from one character main.

Ice Climbers, Snake, Marth and (I may have heard wrong) Wario have biggish results next to their names purely because of Ally. Otherwise? Not much...

Olimar has been a reasonably constantly doing well character with multiple character mains. At any one tournament I see Marths outdoing olimars while at others its olimar outdoing Marths.

tl;dr no character does well except MK and Diddy.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Don't worry, I don't think Wario is that great either, and not only because of results.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Shaya: MK/Diddy are obviously top 2 now, but it seems like Snake still makes top 8 almost everywhere, so I'd say he's still a solid 3rd. Falco would still be top 4 as there is a large gap after him as well.

So, with that in mind, I'd go, Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco, Olimar, ICs, Pikachu, Wario, Marth, King Dedede, Lucario, Zero Suit Samus, Mr. Game & Watch, Toon Link.

That's my top/high tiers

 

[Browny]

^ Perfect.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The only two I might switch (emphasis on might) are Wario and Marth, but I prefer them as listed.

 

[Meru.]

All I know is, in Melee, the top 6 characters all have some degree of success but Brawl Marth never does.

Melee is a different game? It has been lasting for a much longer time and there's more diversity as far as the succes of top tier characters is concerned.

Results are overraaaated.

 

[V]

Why is pikachu all of a sudden awesome and better than wario and marth?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why is pikachu all of a sudden awesome and better than wario and marth?

Because one main doing all the work is better than like 500 anime fanboys who for some reason can't place at anything?

Melee is a different game? It has been lasting for a much longer time and there's more diversity as far as the succes of top tier characters is concerned.

Results are overraaaated.

Nah, if Peach was good she'd place occasionally.

Anyway, B tier characters should place in the money on occasion.

A tier characters should be forces in the current meta game. A tier and up should represent characters that truly matter. Marth has never, ever had a break-out performance that shows us how good he is, not even one. I'm not even really asking for miracles here. Pikachu to me is A tier and it's just one guy who placed really well in a single tournament series and a few other big tourneys. Olimar, too. Marth however doesn't belong, he's just not on the same level. I'm pretty sure his best ever national performance was Ken at EVO 2008

 

[etecoon]

Snake's match-ups are superior to Marth's

I actually laughed hysterically like a cartoon villain at this. both of these characters were my secondaries(recently quit snake), and there are only a few MU's where I would rather use snake than marth. like, diddy, ice climbers, wolf, and ROB pretty much. and I don't feel that bad about marth vs ROB anymore, snake is just my best character against ROB for some reason even being an MK main...

Marth has no right to share a tier with diddy, falco or snake. absolutely none.

I don't recall anyone saying he was MK/diddy/IC's/falco. ok some people are stupid and say things like "if MK were banned, marth would be best", admittedly, those people should consider ending themselves violently

the rest of your inane diatribe on marth's results: people worship results without accounting for the variables too much instead of actually looking at, or *gasp* PLAYING the game. too many people here who think they know everything but you never see their name in a results thread ever

Also I think Diddy's match up spread is better than Marths.

diddy is so much better than marth it's sickening : (

Marth may have average features but he's solid enough that his worst mu is 45:55.

this is very debatable. a few of his MU's are definitely on the fence for being 4:6 IMO

All I know is, in Melee, the top 6 characters all have some degree of success but Brawl Marth never does.

brawl is about meta knight and diddy, it was never a six character game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ete, u forgot the fact that nobody cares about u ;(

Fo' real though, unless you represent High- or Top-Level play you know well that your personal experience means next to nothing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's why I rarely reference my own experiences. Sometimes mid-level play is worthwhile (although I think I'm slightly above mid-level for sure) for discussion, but not always or even usually.

 

[etecoon]

I wouldn't consider myself an amazing player or anything, but I have played a lot of good players and I'd consider my experiences more valuable than never playing the game and just looking at ripple's data thread and going "BUT X CHARACTER MAKES Y AMOUNT MORE THAN Z CHARACTER EVEN THOUGH THEY GET USED MORE(allegedly), X IS OBVIOUSLY BETTER"

looking at things like that is outlandishly ******** at best, especially considering how incomplete the data is, you're trying to get a clear picture looking through a prism

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah that's true but just because you prefer to use Marth in most match-ups doesn't mean he does better. It doesn't even necessarily mean *you* do better [though I guess that's irrelevant]. Point is that Snake does better against almost everything.

 

[etecoon]

I would greatly disagree that snake does better overall but as I said, the game is about meta knight and diddy, marth vs snake pissing contest is petty and pointless

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This game is only about MK vs Diddy in the USA and probably only in specific areas there as well.

 

[Tagxy]

Not many characters have had break out successes more than once.

At one time or all at once? I think thats been the biggest gripes for moving pikachu and olimar up, theyve had better representation and more success with their reps then those above them.

 

[etecoon]

if we're only talking about results/biggest threats in a region then it's not diddy, it's probably still snake. only a few top diddy's and they're scattered about the country where as there are a few places that have two top snakes. I just don't feel like it's snake as a character that's doing it, he has an incredibly strong userbase compared to most characters. I've never lost to a snake player and gone "wow snake is STUPID" like I do with diddy, it's just me getting outplayed and not being good enough yet

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Tbh I think USA has 2 top level Snake players at best and Diddy's the same.

Also, the last sentence in your post is 1000000000000% bias lmao

 

[etecoon]

yeah I can't deny it's bias but I still think diddy is ****ing dumb lol

and because of the region I live in(all good players use snake...), my record against snakes is probably worse than my record against diddy's and I still feel like diddy is the gay one <_<

 

[Meru.]

Because one main doing all the work is better than like 500 anime fanboys who for some reason can't place at anything?




Nah, if Peach was good she'd place occasionally.

Anyway, B tier characters should place in the money on occasion.

A tier characters should be forces in the current meta game. A tier and up should represent characters that truly matter. Marth has never, ever had a break-out performance that shows us how good he is, not even one. I'm not even really asking for miracles here. Pikachu to me is A tier and it's just one guy who placed really well in a single tournament series and a few other big tourneys. Olimar, too. Marth however doesn't belong, he's just not on the same level. I'm pretty sure his best ever national performance was Ken at EVO 2008

Why do you involve Peach with this, I havent even mentioned nor referred to her. Not that what you said is true...

Marth has never had a breakout? Bull****. I may be a bit biased because of my region but even in the US Marths have done ****... Do you realise how hard it is to win a tourney, or even worse, a national tourney? You cant expect every character to pull such achievements. Marth is acknowledged as a good character, so whats the problem. This isnt a top results list. Results are part of a tier but they are not the most important factor. He has good match-ups, none of them unwinnable, does well on most stages and has decent (not AMAZING results) in the US. Sounds good to me, especially considering how exigent this community is.

Besides, Marth shouldnt be in the same tier as DDD and ZSS. Its not right.

 

[Shaya]

This game is only about MK vs Diddy in the USA and probably only in specific areas there as well.

And in Europe the game is about that god damn Marth mains playing against Diddy mains playing against a guy who changes mains every tournament. With a dash of falco and mk.

 

[DMG]

This game is only about MK vs Diddy in the USA and probably only in specific areas there as well.

I mean MK and Diddy are the most dynamic characters the game has to offer. Not even Snake or Falco can compete with that. The only other character that comes close is IC's, but they are so hard to play well that most people flat out give up on them.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And in Europe the game is about that god damn Marth mains playing against Diddy mains playing against a guy who changes mains every tournament. With a dash of falco and mk.

Nah, not really. There's 2 Marths doing well but they'd do just as well if they played another character and better if they played a better character. Their loss. There's lots of random MK/Falco in France, lots of random Snake in Germany and idk at Netherlands, they seem to have a little bit of everything.

I mean MK and Diddy are the most dynamic characters the game has to offer. Not even Snake or Falco can compete with that. The only other character that comes close is IC's, but they are so hard to play well that most people flat out give up on them.

Cool story, bro.

 

[DMG]

I mean, I offer a reason why MK and Diddy are popular in the US, and your rebuttal or counter point is COOL STORY BRO?

I expected something with meaning. ANYTHING... with meaning. I like Toast, I like Ferrari cars, I like Spanish Fly. SOMETHING.

 

[Tagxy]

Regarding Ice Climbers, by what definition are you using dynamic (honest question)? Youre talking about a character that is essentially required to have a secondary for national success.

 

[DMG]

By Dynamic, I mean characters with the most potential for good that arises from having a larger pool of options. It doesn't directly correlate with having the most potential for being the best either. Take Marth for example: Marth is not a dynamic character. He is a safe and reliable character. His moves, his spacing, etc is fairly straight forward. With that said, Marth is a really good character and you could sensibly argue placing him above a more dynamic character like Wario or even IC's.

MK and Diddy are dynamic characters. They have features, attacks, abilities, etc that are not even close to other character traits that could be in the same field. Diddy for example is not the only character that can spawn toss able hazards. However, he is the only character that can spawn items that trip or act as a small "bump" if the opponent is airborne, that also can trip people for running over them on the ground. That is a dynamic feature of the character that is hard, or obviously harder, to accurate judge its worth on paper.

MK doesn't have something like that, but he has traits or features that are 1 of a kind or extremely rare. Tornado is a unique move that has no equal or comparable move in the entire game. It's mobility, duration, range of attack, etc. His Shuttle Loop and his Glide are unique/rare too. Down B as well. Along with having straight forward moves that are incredibly strong like Dtilt, he has moves that offer a lot of flexibility or opportunities you cannot find elsewhere that make him at least a semi dynamic character.

IC's are an obvious pick as well. The only character in the game with 2 controllable entities with desynch options and fusion.

Why dynamic is a desirable trait? Because it's much more likely for good to come out of it. There's not much, or any, of a downside for having dynamic features besides ones that are obviously self destructive in nature like Pokemon Fatigue or G*W 1 hammer or similar stuff. Maybe there isn't/would not be much to come out of Desynching or MK glide options, but having those options to work with in the first place is certainly an advantage over not having those options at all.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hmm, I think a few low tier and low mid tier characters are super dynamic but still bad.

On the other hand, the entire reason Sonic is so successful despite his obvious weaknesses is because he has so many options. As I said once before, "options" is a huge boon, as in, simply having many of them. It's so important that I think Sonic is potentially better than anywhere from 8-10 of the characters he's below, practically speaking. Who needs set-ups when you have 60 different follow-up options? :|

 

[Steam]

Why do you involve Peach with this, I havent even mentioned nor referred to her. Not that what you said is true...

Marth has never had a breakout? Bull****. I may be a bit biased because of my region but even in the US Marths have done ****... Do you realise how hard it is to win a tourney, or even worse, a national tourney? You cant expect every character to pull such achievements. Marth is acknowledged as a good character, so whats the problem. This isnt a top results list. Results are part of a tier but they are not the most important factor. He has good match-ups, none of them unwinnable, does well on most stages and has decent (not AMAZING results) in the US. Sounds good to me, especially considering how exigent this community is.

Besides, Marth shouldnt be in the same tier as DDD and ZSS. Its not right.

It is hard to win tourneys, but marth doesn't even make himself a contender, you'll still see pikachu/Olimar around in the later rounds (Olimar did make GFs at apex) while marth Marth makes top 16 appearances about as much as toon link. (though admitedly Wario has fallen off the face of the earth as well)

and yes Marth has always been acknowledged as a good character, So were RoB and G&W early on, then they fell like rocks. should marth make a similar fall? no. should he fall 3-4 spots? probably.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It is hard to win tourneys, but marth doesn't even make himself a contender, you'll still see pikachu/Olimar around in the later rounds (Olimar did make GFs at apex) while marth Marth makes top 16 appearances about as much as toon link. (though admitedly Wario has fallen off the face of the earth as well)

and yes Marth has always been acknowledged as a good character, So were RoB and G&W early on, then they fell like rocks. should marth make a similar fall? no. should he fall 3-4 spots? probably.

Yes, yes yesss this.

Again, A tier doesn't have to consisted of just like MK Diddy Snake and Falco. It could consist of MK, Diddy, Snake, Falco, Olimar, Pikachu, and possibly (POSSIBLY but probably not) Wario. After this, there is a clear difference in character quality. ICs and Marth could possibly go into their own tier, like this:

1. MK
2. Diddy Snake Falco Olimar Pikachu
3. Wario IceClimbers Marth

but that's a lot of tiers, so just put them at the top of B tier and be done with it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Pretty sure if my not sharing others' opinions makes me a troll, then anyone who doesnt share my opinion is equally as much a troll.

[/i.

There is a difference between sharing an opinion, and then giving your opinion simply because you are rude.

For example, your whiny attitude regarding the SBR. *shrug*

 

[Orion*]

I also happen to know of quite a large number of Marth's that switched their main to MK.

I for one did lmao.

edit: honestly the reason Ganon has actually won money is because... he's ganon so good players are more inclined to play him for the lulz because he's so manly. so occaisionally a ganon will get played early in bracket or something and that person will go on to win money. characters like Link have the issue of being horrible and being unloved.

If you're going to argue results so fervently then you can't john when it's put back to you lol

That's why I rarely reference my own experiences. Sometimes mid-level play is worthwhile (although I think I'm slightly above mid-level for sure) for discussion, but not always or even usually.

Not that I have ever played you but peoples standards for level of play are also very different. I have really high standards (even more for myself) so when people tend to ask me where I think they are and I'm just honest they get insulted.

I.E. for me Brawl still has a lot of room to grow and I think there are very few players in high level play right now, and maybe 4-5 I would consider top.

I've never lost to a snake player and gone "wow snake is STUPID" like I do with diddy, it's just me getting outplayed and not being good enough yet

It's because when you **** up or make tiny errors vs Snake you get *****. Snake as a character relies on your opponent ****ing up to much.

I like Spanish Fly. SOMETHING.

LOL i love you

Who needs set-ups when you have 60 different follow-up options? :|

People always tell me sonic has 1005935 options...
Then i watch sonic mains and they just run away and abuse the fact that people can't deal with charging spin dash >_>

Yes, yes yesss this.

Again, A tier doesn't have to consisted of just like MK Diddy Snake and Falco. It could consist of MK, Diddy, Snake, Falco, Olimar, Pikachu, and possibly (POSSIBLY but probably not) Wario. After this, there is a clear difference in character quality. ICs and Marth could possibly go into their own tier, like this:

1. MK
2. Diddy Snake Falco Olimar Pikachu
3. Wario IceClimbers Marth

but that's a lot of tiers, so just put them at the top of B tier and be done with it.

The fact that Snake is that high absolutely makes me lol, If you where going to do it that way

SS. MK
S. Diddy
A. Falco/ICs/Marth
B. Oli/Wario/Snake

makes more sense to me

MK obviously is a tier above diddy so I can't put them both in S
Diddy is significantly better than marth so it's weird having them in the same tier (unless you think he loses to peach and weegee also lmao in that case they could all be A for what I care).

Yet having marth in the tier with falco, ect seems fine because he has relatively great MUs across the board, and so do all of the other characters in that tier.

Oli/wario/snake are all great characters but have flaws that are to abusable for me to want to put them in A.

I could reasonably see changes in Diddy going into the same tier w/ falco, marth or ICs dropping to Snake/oli tier but they would be at the top of those IMO.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Let's try and walk away from this so it doesn't turn nasty ok? Like I see where both people are coming from but let's not get at each others throats about it.

Still dunno, I can't ignore some things about Marth even with his meh placements.

Also I prefer people are actually honest about me when it comes to, "Am I a lot level, mid level or high level player?" Since it gives me a feel of what I can work on, dunno why people would be insulted, granted I self-criticize myself a lot when it comes to my placements and play.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Orion I wasn't really going for pinpoint accuracy nor do I think Snake is all that irrelevant right now. I wouldn't even try to place Snake anywhere, but I couldn't very well leave him out haha

Also, the fact that Sonic can create space between his opponents quickly and close it again just as fast is where his options come from. Options have less to do with which attack you use but when you use them, I guess. MK is powerful for the same reason, in part. MK, Diddy and a few other characters (like GaW and ZSS to a lesser extent) also rely a lot on the same kind of stuff that's easy to punish on paper but harder in practice, especially when you might not expect it or when it's less obvious. This is why "just PS lol" is a weird argument to me against characters like TL, ZSS etc. No matter how much people say this is possible I still watch really good players lose to Jash and mgj. We aren't talking about players who can't do stuff like PS on reaction either.

It isn't as though arguing about character tools vs. human ability or whatever else doesn't have merit. In 2009 I agreed that Marth was really good. If I started the game yesterday I'd think he was really good again. If I had been playing the game for a long time and understood it well, and they introduced Marth tomorrow as a DLC character or whatever, I'd think he was good at first glace. It isn't that I'm ignoring his strengths, because he has a lot of them, but they aren't adding up to a winning combination for whatever reason. Why? Well, what are his weaknesses? Horizontal recovery, and kinda easy to gimp with a good read. Laggy smashes and kill moves. Light. No projectile. I still say he's pretty easy to camp at long-range, but whatever. It's safe to say his "amazing match-ups" are exaggerated, since he isn't winning them apparently.

When a Mario main joins the thread to tell us Mario belongs higher on the tier list we say "OK, good attitude. Go to a tournament and prove it." When Marth mains, really good ones, can't place for months we ignore it and make excuses for them. Doesn't anyone else see the hypocrisy here? :\

 

[san.]

I don't believe Diddy is much better than the other higher tiers. Deal with bananas. They aren't very fast.

I also feel Marth is overrated, despite those very few who manage to find some success in other countries.


A lot of sonic's options also have scary commitments in certain situations, while others make it easier to vary the timing of vulnerability to intercept. I think it's more that even a few of Sonic's options simply screw up spacing well due to their innate mechanics, more than omg so many options.


Compared to MK and maybe those right underneath, a lot of the higher tiers just feel mediocre anyways. I feel as though there's a large grey area in mid-high tiers.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Are people still trying to say that Snake is no longer relevant, even though he has 2x the results of Diddy Kong with only 1.5x the amount of players? That he should be as low as B tier?

I swear, I don't understand how people can reach such insane ideas...he's very relevant. More relevant than Diddy in both chances of running into him in a tournament, and amount of money being won. The only character that beats him in either category is MK. There is not a single logical thing to base such crazy ideas on beyond supposed bad match-ups, which seem to be proving themselves to be not a big deal.

You can theorycraft all you want about him "relying on opponents messing up to win", but at the end of the day, he's still bringing in the money.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Tbh I think USA has 2 top level Snake players at best and Diddy's the same.

Also, the last sentence in your post is 1000000000000% bias lmao

Fatal, Ally, Razer, MVD, and Candy (before he vanished) were all top level Snake players in my opinion.

yeah I can't deny it's bias but I still think diddy is ****ing dumb lol

and because of the region I live in(all good players use snake...), my record against snakes is probably worse than my record against diddy's and I still feel like diddy is the gay one <_<

NE's only really good Diddy quit long ago (Turtle).

I don't believe Diddy is much better than the other higher tiers. Deal with bananas. They aren't very fast.

I also feel Marth is overrated, despite those very few who manage to find some success in other countries.

A lot of sonic's options also have scary commitments in certain situations, while others make it easier to vary the timing of vulnerability to intercept. I think it's more that even a few of Sonic's options simply screw up spacing well due to their innate mechanics, more than omg so many options.

Compared to MK and maybe those right underneath, a lot of the higher tiers just feel mediocre anyways. I feel as though there's a large grey area in mid-high tiers.

*Agrees with everything San said*

Are people still trying to say that Snake is no longer relevant, even though he has 2x the results of Diddy Kong with only 1.5x the amount of players? That he should be as low as B tier?

I swear, I don't understand how people can reach such insane ideas...he's very relevant. More relevant than Diddy in both chances of running into him in a tournament, and amount of money being won. The only character that beats him in either category is MK. There is not a single logical thing to base such crazy ideas on beyond supposed bad match-ups, which seem to be proving themselves to be not a big deal.

You can theorycraft all you want about him "relying on opponents messing up to win", but at the end of the day, he's still bringing in the money.

Pretty much. Snake is still very good and people overate Diddy. People are insane because they don't know how to control naners. I remember back when people said Falco was 2nd best character. People found ways around Iap, lasers, and cg and now people throw Snake right above him again. Falco's predictable recovery (2 choices either on stage or off), lightweight, and predictable spotdodge habits became abuseable by people who used Snake and figured out that stuff. Now, the only relevant Falco is pretty much Dehf.

Snake beats Diddy in the matchup. Snake brings in more money. Snake's recovery is easier to abuse, but still difficult if you aren't Mk (Nado is a godsend). If everytime Diddy hit Snake with a naner and Snake pulled a nade up to 100 percent then Snake has thorough advantage. At that point one ftilt and Diddy is in Utilt range. Diddy needs about 60-70% on Diddy before he is even able to kill a Snake (Unless he has PatG Di).
^
Theorycraft at it's finest in a matchup.

I'm not saying Snake>Diddy. At this point in time, I'd put them in the same tier placement till Diddy's bring in more dinero then Snake. If you look at it from a financial point of view, then it's more worthwhile to main Snake then Dildo kong.

S: 1
A: 2456 7
B: 891011 1213

 

[Dark.Pch]

peach isnt better than ROB lol. maybe she is "better" than ROB in that the character is actually better, but, she is too difficult to play for her to be above ROB on a tier list 8

Really. Then I guess that must be why Meta knight is the best in the game. Cause he is so easy to use. So easy to get away with alot of BS and you don't even need to be that good of a player to give players at high level skill a run for their money.

Snake is not a character you can just spam tilts and hope you land a hit like many low level players think. This isnt 2008. Snake now gets his *** whooped. Same time he is up there on the list and is a good character. You seriously have to think when using snake. A **** load of characters can abuse his weaknesses hard. And it can be hard for snake to protect them. But when he does, he is a pain to deal with.

Melee, All the high tiers outside of jiggz are hard to play with and beast. really the space animals. All that crazy techical **** top space animal players be doing is not something you can just get over nite, go to a tourny and just ****. Peach in melee aint all about fairs and jabs to Dsmashes. if it was that simple to win with her, then I and every other Peach player back in the day would be making that money easy.

Character difficulty does not determine how good they are. Idk how this is even an idea. its the ability of the characters in general. People till this day fail to realize this. And wanna blame the character for results. But never ever the players like this one guy below this post....

Nah, if Peach was good she'd place occasionally

Don't you ever get tired of being fool of it?

 

[Zankoku]

Really. Then I guess that must be why Meta knight is the best in the game. Cause he is so easy to use. So easy to get away with alot of BS and you don't even need to be that good of a player to give players at high level skill a run for their money.

Well, getting away from your hyperbole, a huge factor of Meta Knight's success is the fact that he doesn't take a severe amount of effort to play.