Official BBR Tier List v5

[-LzR-]

You are free to get one of our million Warios from EU >_>

 

[RATED]

Marth? Why? He is an excellent character.

Your location. Have you ever gone to PR tournaments? You should if you don't. PM if you feel like it.

 

[z00ted]

Why are all of you ranking Peach so low?

 

[Meru.]

Why are all of you ranking Peach so low?

"Peach sucks. Her players are amazing but her results aren't that good. She has a killing problem which cannot be fixed anyhow. Her mobility is slow. She still hasn't done anything yet. She has a range problem (???). Her match-ups are overrated. She doesn't not have a high learning curve, she's just not that great. Other characters are better than she is."

La fin.

It's ok though, on v7 she'll rise again

 

[z00ted]

Wait.... what?

Who said that?

 

[Steam]

Seconding this on both accounts.

Wolf switching is warranted on his results alone, and what reason does Wario have to drop?

what major does wolf have other than Choice winning a million illinois locals? I honestly don't really know.

and Wolf should probably be above pit... I think I may have put pit too high.

 

[Spelt]

this is late but also lol @ niddo's "the results aren't posted on this website, so to me they don't exist" argument.

and at "jigglypuff sucks".
what a double standard.
jigglypuff has better results than a few of the other characters in that tier, except apparently results don't matter for her when they're all you consider for basically every other character?



Such idiocy.

 

[V]

Results either factor into every character's placing or they don't factor for any of them. There can't be double standards.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

this is late but also lol @ niddo's "the results aren't posted on this website, so to me they don't exist" argument.

and at "jigglypuff sucks".
what a double standard.
jigglypuff has better results than a few of the other characters in that tier, except apparently results don't matter for her when they're all you consider for basically every other character?



Such idiocy.

Fox mains are claiming they should be moving up/that it wasn't an overhyped tier list. Their best player is in a region that doesn't post results. That can make a huge difference in what the actual results are.

The results for the lower 7 or so are all pitifully bad. There isn't much to go by there at all, and one half decent result can switch stuff easily down in that part of the list.

Obvious reasons are obvious.

 

[Seagull Joe]

what major does wolf have other than Choice winning a million illinois locals? I honestly don't really know.

and Wolf should probably be above pit... I think I may have put pit too high.

Kain is in Illinois. He has won regionals too and OoS tourneys too. Beaten Lain a lot lol... Choice is in NorCal. Whiile Choice hasn't been too active he did perform very well at every Mlg except Dallas if I recall correctly. He also has done well at all of his locals. I believe Viviff has results in Oregon, but I have no idea about that other then he is PR'd 3rd. I have done well at several locals and OoS. Pit isn't that good.

And the characters that give Wolf trouble are D3 and Pikachu the most. Fox has Ics, Pikachu, and Sheik. Fox has more ofa likelihood of running into his death matchups then Wolf's disadvantage matchups. Wolf doesn't get as hard countered as Fox does loool. Mk's negate all of Wolf's/Fox's bad matchups anyways =).

 

[Tagxy]

I dont think WC will be posting their results here.

I agree with browny, theres nothing special about the top 7 anymore. Regardless of where characters are placed the top 9 should be separated from those below them, and potentially a separate tier for the top 4 as well.

Because Marth's getting 9th at large tournaments instead of 7th means he's a bad character.

When youre being outperformed by other characters its not unreasonable. Its not about bad or good characters, especially since everyone in high tier is more or less 'good'. Its a comparison of one against another.

 

[Orion*]

'sacred seven' lmao

That stopped being relevant two years ago. Its all about the undisputed top 4 now. The next rung of relevant characters goes to 9.

I have heard a lot of different opinions for top 4 from different top players in priv. convo many times so I don't really get the whole undisputed thing.

Some people still think Snake is 2nd/3rd best. Others think he is garbage
Some people think Diddy is 2nd/3rd best, Others think if people learn to use bananas better he would drop a decent amount
Some people think ICs are 2nd, and others think he's like top 10 lol
I have also heard varying places for Marth, Falco, Wario

The only thing pretty much everyone agrees on is mk lol

 

[Browny]

I would bet a reasonable sum of money that mk snake diddy and falco will be top 4 next list, the 'different' opinions may have 1 different character thrown into the mix, but from what I've seen/heard/talked about for a very long time, overall those 4 are always there by a considerable margin.

 

[Orion*]

I would bet a reasonable sum of money that mk snake diddy and falco will be top 4 next list, the 'different' opinions may have 1 different character thrown into the mix, but from what I've seen/heard/talked about for a very long time, overall those 4 are always there by a considerable margin.

How much money you willing to bet?
*splits with BBR members*

I have a feeling snake won't be top 4 though

 

[stingers]

joe, viviff mains MK.

 

[Tesh]

i see no reason for snake to drop below anyone besides diddy and mk. what falco? even if by some stretch....who ELSE could be considered above him?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

i see no reason for snake to drop below anyone besides diddy and mk. what falco? even if by some stretch....who ELSE could be considered above him?

Wario...as Gluttony

 

[phi1ny3]

joe, viviff mains MK.

^This.

Almost all of his results nowadays are through MK, he only goes Wolf for the lulz.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Figured as much, but wasn't sure.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm not digging around two sites to make sure I get every result, and I doubt I'm the only one who thinks this way. It's also not getting added into the various topics we have over here to compare character results/character usage and I'm not going to try to figure it out.

Seriously, WC dudes: Highlight your results when you post them on AiB, control + c, make a topic on smashboards, control + V. Ta-da! More data on various characters being added to those topics!

Then don't claim your data is correct then, nor the conclusion reached because of them.

Period.


If you know that data exists that drastically changes your data but refuse to seek it out and your conclusions do not incorporate it, then you at the very least need to have a disclaimer and put something like "this conclusion is the best I can make based on the data that I have used and my data ignores WC results". A better approach would be to ask somebody from WC to give you a rundown of the data that makes your criteria so you can incorporate it.


But saying that marth sucks because of tournament results while completely ignoring the results of his top player EVEN WHEN YOU KNOW HIS TOP PLAYER IS GETTING GOOD RESULTS is just completely intellectually dishonest.



On a related note, I think this very effectively illustrates the fallacy of relying solely on tournament results. Single people make much too drastic changes to the results, which means that which character rises and which character falls because the actual amount of relevant players is so low. The fact that one person emerging (and I'm not talking about one person that totally reinvents how the character is played, just one person that gets results. The difference being whether other players of that character substantially improve their results as a result) totally changes the results just illustrates how the number of top players is too small to be statistically significant.

This is especially true if you make the argument that top players are the metagame, if no player of a high enough caliber exists for that character, their metagame effectively doesn't exist for the purposes of tournament results.

 

[Spelt]

Fox mains are claiming they should be moving up/that it wasn't an overhyped tier list. Their best player is in a region that doesn't post results. That can make a huge difference in what the actual results are.

Yeah ... it means fox's results should be better.

The results for the lower 7 or so are all pitifully bad. There isn't much to go by there at all, and one half decent result can switch stuff easily down in that part of the list.

Obvious reasons are obvious.

Obvious excuse for not wanting to admit you have a random bias towards jigglypuff is obvious.
They're still results, and according to you should be followed to a T, and if they can't be trusted, then what do you do now? Throw them in a random order because you (don't) like ______?

 

[Steam]

Kain is in Illinois. He has won regionals too and OoS tourneys too. Beaten Lain a lot lol... Choice is in NorCal. Whiile Choice hasn't been too active he did perform very well at every Mlg except Dallas if I recall correctly. He also has done well at all of his locals. I believe Viviff has results in Oregon, but I have no idea about that other then he is PR'd 3rd. I have done well at several locals and OoS. Pit isn't that good.

And the characters that give Wolf trouble are D3 and Pikachu the most. Fox has Ics, Pikachu, and Sheik. Fox has more ofa likelihood of running into his death matchups then Wolf's disadvantage matchups. Wolf doesn't get as hard countered as Fox does loool. Mk's negate all of Wolf's/Fox's bad matchups anyways =).

my bad... mixed up choice and kain XD

 

[Chuee]

People here underrate pit too much :/

 

[DMG]

Pit sucks GG

 

[Chuee]

Pit sucks.

 

[Laem]

Give niddo a break he has a sleeping disorder so we just have to take his illogical ramblings with a grain of salt.

 

[DMG]

Well I have an ACTUAL sleep disorder, and I don't expect my **** to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Tagxy]

DMG is not a fan of salt.

 

[DMG]

Sodium kills

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yeah ... it means fox's results should be better.



Obvious excuse for not wanting to admit you have a random bias towards jigglypuff is obvious.
They're still results, and according to you should be followed to a T, and if they can't be trusted, then what do you do now? Throw them in a random order because you (don't) like ______?

Show me once where I said "we should exactly follow results for the tier list"

I'll wait, because you're going to be searching forever. I never once said that. Look at the rest of my tier list: it doesn't exactly follow the results thread. Results make up a large amount for tier list results now yes, but not all of it.

Heck, I'm the guy who argued for roughly a year that we shouldn't be using Reflex's PT results to place PT so high. I think I proved a long time ago that I don't follow results to a T, like you think I do for some bizarre reason.

Think before you speak, if you even speak at all.

@Laem: Eh, that's not quite it, though sleep related problems are a side effect.

 

[Spelt]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12501372&postcount=13973


Bam.

Also this

Also: potential is meaningless. Only visible results matter.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think people still to do this are holding onto results too much to actually look at anyone well.

Also playing double standard with not looking up results to justify a job is a terrible thing to suggest. Same with excluding out of country results unless their ruleset is changes drastically from ours. Japan makes sense because they play on three stages only, or one, Europe I see less reason to exclude them.

I understand we don't want another Pit where someone gets a boost without any reason or someone is holding a position they don't deserve, but sometimes there are cases where player base may actually be a reason.

Pokemon Trainer, who other than T-Block and Reflex uses him well? Might as well drop him into low tier seeing as no one plays him. The only reason people are justifying dropping Marth is results alone, that's it, I'm seeing nothing about Marth himself as a character as to why he is worse than others in A tier.

There is obviously something to it since there are people who claimed Pit was A tier yet he never anywhere gets results that reflect this, heck even looking at Pit you could justify him being lower make sense. Results do have a part in some cases for making a tier list, it gives you something to look at and try and understand why someone i shaving issues placing and why others are more successful, with videos you can analyze what works and what doesn't and what people are doing wrong.

The tier list however is not about strictly results and dropping characters because of it alone imo, is not a correct approach.

 

[Chuee]

Japan makes sense because they play on three stages only, or one, Europe I see less reason to exclude them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do you have a reason to say such things?

 

[Chuee]

Yes because Japan plays on more than 3 stages.

 

[Meru.]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12501372&postcount=13973


Bam.

Also this

WOW you're good at remembering stuff!

Serious compliment, no sarcasm involved .

 

[Tagxy]

Pokemon Trainer, who other than T-Block and Reflex uses him well? Might as well drop him into low tier seeing as no one plays him. The only reason people are justifying dropping Marth is results alone, that's it, I'm seeing nothing about Marth himself as a character as to why he is worse than others in A tier.

I cant believe those two thought were in the same paragraph. Unless you were being sarcastic about Pokemon Trainer being in low tier, which he more or less is.

With anything competitive you dont just get an A for effort. This isnt a feel-good judgement where those who have good qualities are rewarded with being ranked high. You have to be better than those around you. Marth is in a competition with several other characters, and each of those characters can be described to have as many subjectively good qualities. So Marth falling short on his results leaves a big hole in his "Im better than those around me" resume.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yes because Japan plays on more than 3 stages.

I've never heard of them playing more than that outside of when M2K and others were gonna fly out there and play.

I cant believe those two thought were in the same paragraph. Unless you were being sarcastic about Pokemon Trainer being in low tier, which he more or less is.

PT is not low tier.

With anything competitive you dont just get an A for effort. This isnt a feel-good judgement where those who have good qualities are rewarded with being ranked high. You have to be better than those around you. Marth is in a competition with several other characters, and each of those characters can be described to have as many subjectively good qualities. So Marth falling short on his results leaves a big hole in his "Im better than those around me" resume.

You failed to tell me why Marth is worse than those around him, why is Marth worse than all of A tier excluding results?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12501372&postcount=13973


Bam.

Also this

Results in that sense meant data, seeing as I was arguing against using something that is impossible to measure (potential). Poor wording on my end, considering that would mean ignoring match-ups, something else I've spent a fair bit of time arguing about. >_>

 

[Conviction]

Shouldn't double track now.