Official BBR Tier List v5

[Chuee]

Ok, then we're in agreement?

My whole point was that you shouldn't just discredit what snakes say by saying the are underrating/overrating the match-up. This goes for any character though. Every opinion from a top level player is important.

I was never talking about top level snakes. Most stuff I hear top level snake's say is understandable.
I was talking about the lower level snakes who underrate almost all of his MUs.

 

[Alphicans]

Ok, then who gives a ****?

I've heard TOP LEVEL snakes say they lose to DDD. Look at the match-up chart. It says -1 for snake. We had plenty of good snakes contribute to that chart, and we got outside opinions from non BBR snakes (razer for example) that said they think snake loses. I forget what the DDD's all said, but I think the overall consensus was they thought it was even.

Do I think the chart has the match-up written down correctly? Yes. Do I think the chart went about adding that number correctly? Not really, but again there really is no way to really say who wins and who loses or if it's even. But for me, if I see one character say they lose and the other say it's even, the match-up is probably going to be the former.

 

[Steam]

so like this new crouch canceling thing makes Zelda's Dtilt pretty ****.

yay zelda got even worse : D

 

[Linkvader]

Crouch Canceling is weird. I never would of guessed that crouching reduces hitlag... That's crazy, I wanna see some examples of it in games now.

 

[John12346]

Guys, keep in mind crouch canceling does not reduce hitstun, it reduces hitlag, AKA the "freeze time" you get when you land a hit. If both characters are affected by the hitlag on hit, then crouch canceling doesn't make the move any better or worse.

There are very few moves that apply hitlag to the opponent only. Projectiles and Marth's Dancing Blade come to mind, but I don't think there's much else.

 

[Seagull Joe]

wow, i can't tell if you're leaving out the most recent evidence purposely or not

you realize that in the most recent sets...

razer has beaten atomsk
mvd has beaten me
fatal has beaten co18

all three of those were sometime after each of the sets you've listed

will you please get off this notion? it's old, tired and frankly, pretty stupid. ddd doesn't win, i'm honestly not even sure if it's even (seibrik, atomsk and i all think ddd loses the matchup), but it's CERTAINLY not in ddd's favor. pull your head out.

Seibrik mains Mk and I haven't seen him use D3 in forever. I think D3 has slight advantage. I did not know of those recent sets. How recent?

look, whether or not ddd loses the matchup, who cares. i'm painted by personal bias, so i have no opinion about that. however, i think it's abundantly clear that ddd doesn't win, and it is even at best.

i've been known to underrate ddd, so my personal opinion really doesn't carry much weight, but i don't see how you can look at the top ddds losing to top snakes and say he wins like it's 2008. it's not. ddd has just as much trouble landing as snake does, gets punished horribly, and his awful mobility makes avoiding explosions near impossible. don't tell me snake has flaws too, i KNOW he does, THAT IS HOW A MATCHUP WORKS, i'm just trying to get across the point that ddd is by no means a snake counter.

oh yeah, and lol at the notion of ddd/diddy being even, or olimar only being -1. that's stupid.

after my set with MVD at pound, we both relaxed and joked with each other; "i was so scared! one mistake means a ton of damage!" "no, i was so scared! one grab means a ton of damage!" this matchup is difficult for both characters for different reasons, it's just easy (and attractive) to say that ddd's grab control is easier than setting up snake's grenades and explosions.

IT'S NOT.

I just think you underrate D3 a lot. Always have lmao.

Being able to CG straight into a GR or Dtilt at edge is something most characters can't abuse Snake of. Sure, you have to get past the nades, but it isn't like D3 is incapable of getting through nades. His high priority Bair is something Snake can't really challenge when Snake is in the air. And D3's Back roll and Spotdodge are pretty ****ing good. Snake doesn't kill D3 with Utilt early like most characters. If Snake messes up then that's 50-60% of damage he'll eat. If D3 messes up it isn't as much...

I could see Snake giving D3 problems on few stages like Brinstar, Norfair (Isn't legal), Halberd, or Battlefield. I cannot see D3 having problems at all on Fd, Smashville (A stage very small with little platform versatility for D3 to have significant problems with), Yoshi's island, Lylat (I think D3 would give Snake lots of problems here), Castle Siege, Delfino, Rainbow Cruise, Ps1, or Pictochat. I can't see Snake having a solid advantage on any stage that he would have an advantage on by D3 in comparison. D3 on the other hand has a plethora of stages to choose from that'll definitely tip the matchup in his favor.

 

[Coney]

Seibrik mains Mk and I haven't seen him use D3 in forever. I think D3 has slight advantage. I did not know of those recent sets. How recent?

atomsk and i lost at pound 5. co18 lost at some mlg.

I just think you underrate D3 a lot. Always have lmao.

agreed, maybe

Being able to CG straight into a GR or Dtilt at edge is something most characters can't abuse Snake of. Sure, you have to get past the nades, but it isn't like D3 is incapable of getting through nades. His high priority Bair is something Snake can't really challenge when Snake is in the air. And D3's Back roll and Spotdodge are pretty ****ing good. Snake doesn't kill D3 with Utilt early like most characters. If Snake messes up then that's 50-60% of damage he'll eat. If D3 messes up it isn't as much...

this is assuming snake is, for whatever reason, standing with his back facing the rest of the stage, also probably on FD. when ddd gets a grab, he doesn't get 50-60% unless it's literally from the very edge of fd, and why would snake be pressuring ddd like that anyway? that's dumb.

also i like how our one grab is 50-60 damage guaranteed, but any mistake by us isn't going to get ftilted or grenade setup or anything. ddd gets blown up harder than most characters due to his size and lack of mobility. you know ddd gets tech chased harder than most do, right? we only have one viable option, f-roll, because if we getup attack it hits in front of us first, giving him time to shield it ON REACTION.

I could see...I cannot see...

o word??? so instead of taking my word for it, as someone that plays ddd extensively and has done so for over two years, you're going off your basic gut instinct on two characters, neither of which you play at a high level, and even go as far as to insist upon other matchups you know little about. got it!

good snakes don't get grabbed and even if they do, it's very hard to get more than just a CG out of it because of his amount of options to get back (go to ledge, use upb to go high immediately, jump back onto stage, whatever).

simply put, you're putting your own "well personally I THINK" over not only the opinions of me and my peers, but also over hard, concrete results. saying "snake might lose to ddd" is fine, completely understandable and acceptable, because the matchup is so strenuous for both sides, and the grab certainly is an empowering tool. saying "i have no idea how snake could beat ddd and it is simply impossible because a cg is guaranteed 60% damage and no snakes have ever beaten ddd" is, well, stupid.

 

[Seagull Joe]

o word??? so instead of taking my word for it, as someone that plays ddd extensively and has done so for over two years, you're going off your basic gut instinct on two characters, neither of which you play at a high level, and even go as far as to insist upon other matchups you know little about. got it!

That's what most people do on these boards.

 

[Atomsk_92]

wow, i can't tell if you're leaving out the most recent evidence purposely or not

you realize that in the most recent sets...

razer has beaten atomsk
mvd has beaten me
fatal has beaten co18

all three of those were sometime after each of the sets you've listed

To be fair Zak, all three of us are extremely out of practice. However, I still feel the same way as you do.

 

[Coney]

That's what most people do on these boards.

perhaps but as a BBR member, a legitimately talented player and a decent human being, i honestly expect more out of you than the common bull**** theorycrafter. you're ranked now!

 

[Alphicans]

I am surprised you used "good snakes don't get grabbed" as a point lol... Snake is easy to grab as any character.

 

[san.]

A good snake can make it very hard depending on your options. I believe they can at least seal a chaingrab or make it difficult. That's why characters have to use other options as pressure to leave them open for the sacred grab.

In Ike's case, grab and aerials to leave snake open for the sacred jab.

 

[Alphicans]

Snake is good at avoiding getting cg'd by falco and ICs because of grenades. He is still easy to get grabs in as those characters however. DDD's cg doesn't get ***** by grenades, so I don't see the issue here.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I just think you underrate D3 a lot. Always have lmao.

Maybe, I dunno.

Zak is the only DDD I've heard that thinks Lucario vs DDD isn't a terrible to impossible MU, some people think it's his worst at a -2/-3 and impossible for Lucario, yet Zak thinks it's a -1, or -2 with the CG into Usmash.

Granted a lot of people have differing opinions on that one. I've seen some people get pretty mad about the MU from the Lucario side at the very least. I think with Zak's experience I can trust his input on this one.

Snake on the other hand for Lucario....

 

[Steam]

Snake "feels" worse overall...

but lucario gets kinda gimmicked by D3.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Stupid CG into Usmash...yet no one has done it on me or some others yet.

 

[Albert.]

Atomsk is back? Maining dojo?

Coney is still smart as f***?

Some people say stupid things in the Tier list thread?

and Snake vs DDD was always a hard MU for DDD and I'm not actually such a terrible DDD secondary for getting ***** by every Snake whenever I tried that MU ?

 

[Spelt]

It's funny because the high level players came in here and made this thread lulzier than I could've done.

 

[Coney]

I am surprised you used "good snakes don't get grabbed" as a point lol... Snake is easy to grab as any character.

that completely depends on what your definition of "easy" is

Maybe, I dunno.

Zak is the only DDD I've heard that thinks Lucario vs DDD isn't a terrible to impossible MU, some people think it's his worst at a -2/-3 and impossible for Lucario, yet Zak thinks it's a -1, or -2 with the CG into Usmash.

Granted a lot of people have differing opinions on that one. I've seen some people get pretty mad about the MU from the Lucario side at the very least. I think with Zak's experience I can trust his input on this one.

Snake on the other hand for Lucario....

i mean, talking on matchups is kinda difficult

i play junebug sometimes. he makes me think the matchup isn't that bad. is that just him being better than me? i'm sure that's part of it--but there's also evidence that suggests that matchup isn't so bad. i've been known to underrate ddd a lot, and i'm not quite sure if that's just me being a low-level high-level player, or if i'm actually right and the rest of the world is crazy.

besides, people believe what they want to believe anyway. i personally don't think ddd/ike is that bad, after playing the best ikes, but i'd get laughed out of the thread if i said that publicly! how much of it is me, a(n allegedly) high level ddd, being a naturally worse player than high level ikes like san and mr. doom? who can say? me? you? what's the criteria? am i playing the matchup right? am i not? how do YOU know? all i can tell people is how the matchup feels and hope they'll stay level-headed enough to at least hear me out.

this isn't directed to you btw red, you just brought up a good launching point for something i've been thinking about lately

 

[phi1ny3]

Stupid CG into Usmash...yet no one has done it on me or some others yet.

Best part of this gimmick is that if they miss, lucario gets powershield on their smash, and in return basically gets an opening for a good kill move of his own (which is conversely is also why Lucario has stuggles against D3 traditionally, it becomes a large standoff/rush to either get Lucario offstage at about 150-160 for bair to connect more safely, while Lucario tries to get a hard read/catch a landing with AS/fsmash, although I think frame 1 FP helps a looooot for this MU).

I think D3 is still fairly bad, but I feel Snake is much worse since you gotta actively approach the bugger and his damage output is ridiculous on Lucario since he abuses Lucario's not-so-quick transition of air to ground (floatiness and all) fairly well, if that makes any sense at all. I always feel that Lucario would be so much better against snake if they either increased his mobility in that sense, or made his aerials more safe.

 

[etecoon]

snake vs DDD is very close to even IMO and I'm usually the first one to take a **** on snake(like 5th or 6th best character obv), I think he has it worse against olimar, pikachu, MK, marth, and wario

 

[DMG]

Wario and maybe Olimar no. Pika MK Marth however do give him a hard time and it's easier to see than Dedede vs him.

 

[Seagull Joe]

perhaps but as a BBR member, a legitimately talented player and a decent human being, i honestly expect more out of you than the common bull**** theorycrafter. you're ranked now!

That made me feel flattered .

 

[Fuujin]

I am surprised you used "good snakes don't get grabbed" as a point lol... Snake is easy to grab as any character.

not sure if serious

 

[Alphicans]

Very serious. Compared to characters that are ACTUALLY hard to grab, snake is a breeze.

 

[Judo777]

Nah olimar does give snake a decent amount of trouble. You know how frustrating it is playing against a character that is better than you on the ground when you are limited to always being on the ground? its kinda sucks lol.

I am by no means a high level snake (mine ain't bad but nothin special) but I have played the D3 MU a decent amount and i must say that it feels like Snake has the tools to play the MU if he is allowed to setup the parameters of the combat. In a head to head fight withough being setup it feels like D3 takes a dump on Snake. One grab puts you in an awful spot. However if you are able to setup your mines and explosives in the right spot i feel this MU could be even (although i still feel having to stay setup is a disadvantage already but I could be wrong).

 

[Orion*]

snake vs DDD is very close to even IMO and I'm usually the first one to take a **** on snake

This

Wario and maybe Olimar no. Pika MK Marth however do give him a hard time and it's easier to see than Dedede vs him.

Olimar is pretty bad.... Like I don't see how snake can get in so GL camping?? LOL

edit: This is probably why people suck vs snake. HMMMM SNAKE SEEMS EASY TO GRAB
snakes just gonna camp you and if you want to do anything past a quick throw have a nade there to blow you up.

even if you're right look at the risk reward ratio.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Snake is extremely hard to grab. He also beats Olimar like +1

 

[DMG]

Snake beats everyone and goes even with MK

There, I said it for ya

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nah, Snake doesn't beat everybody else. Even with DDD, Marth, Wario and possibly some other characters. My opinion on his match-up vs MK fluctuates on a daily basis so I leave that one out lol

 

[Tarmogoyf]

even if you're right look at the risk reward ratio.

This is the basis of Snake being good lol. Risk/reward against snake is awful for basically everyone. He kills at 100, lives till 200, deals 20 with everything he does.

Yeah, he has a lot of holes that both in paper and in practice get exploited, but the other guy is gonna **** up too, and their ****ups are at least twice as bad.

Mostly agree w/ Gheb's MUs, although I'd add pika to the evens, and Marth advantage

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Even though I think people are too hard on Snake I gotta say I think he loses to Pikachu, but not badly. It's hard to ignore that a low percent grab means he probably loses a stock. And I don't think Pikachu has too hard of a time grabbing Snake. That doesn't mean it's always going to happen, but avoiding the grab isn't exactly a foregone conclusion either.

Also, I feel like every time people talk about Snake, he dies later, is harder to grab, camps better, has a better air game, and bakes cookies faster. Snake's pretty good, you don't have to exaggerate his strengths to make a point. I mean yeah, sometimes Snake dies at 250 when you've staled all your kill moves and can't get a read, but it isn't usually that severe. Also, Snake players take tons of damage off-stage every match and is usually outright gimped once or twice a set but I don't see people mentioning that.

 

[san.]

Snake doesn't have to be amazing, just better than everyone else not MK, which isn't really too much of a feat.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Snake doesn't have to be amazing, just better than everyone else not MK, which isn't really too much of a feat.

This.

People tend to say Meta Knight has a slight advantage on a lot of the cast but doesn't really hard counter most characters, but I'd say that's more Snake's thing. His base attributes are so powerful that they make a set of moves that is probably just above average really strong. Snake gets higher rewards on good reads than most of the cast so he'll probably have good results. Meta Knight on the other hand has more +3 and +4 match-ups with more characters than people care to admit. His very ****ing relative distance to you is a god damn frame trap, I don't care who you're playing.

 

[Steam]

This.

People tend to say Meta Knight has a slight advantage on a lot of the cast but doesn't really hard counter most characters, but I'd say that's more Snake's thing. His base attributes are so powerful that they make a set of moves that is probably just above average really strong. Snake gets higher rewards on good reads than most of the cast so he'll probably have good results. Meta Knight on the other hand has more +3 and +4 match-ups with more characters than people care to admit. His very ****ing relative distance to you is a god damn frame trap, I don't care who you're playing.

agree with this so much.

 

[Orion*]

This.

People tend to say Meta Knight has a slight advantage on a lot of the cast but doesn't really hard counter most characters, but I'd say that's more Snake's thing. His base attributes are so powerful that they make a set of moves that is probably just above average really strong. Snake gets higher rewards on good reads than most of the cast so he'll probably have good results. Meta Knight on the other hand has more +3 and +4 match-ups with more characters than people care to admit. His very ****ing relative distance to you is a god damn frame trap, I don't care who you're playing.

Yes but at lower levels play it's a lot easier to just spam **** with snake and assume your opponent isnt 100% perfect on punishing/reaction/dropping gimps and juggles ect unless you have put in the time to get the maximum reward off of these frame traps.


@ goyf

That's why you just don't approach snake LOL

 

[Nidtendofreak]

This.

People tend to say Meta Knight has a slight advantage on a lot of the cast but doesn't really hard counter most characters, but I'd say that's more Snake's thing. His base attributes are so powerful that they make a set of moves that is probably just above average really strong. Snake gets higher rewards on good reads than most of the cast so he'll probably have good results. Meta Knight on the other hand has more +3 and +4 match-ups with more characters than people care to admit. His very ****ing relative distance to you is a god damn frame trap, I don't care who you're playing.

This, this, this, this, this.

I honestly feel that a large chunk of the MK MUs in the "official" MU spread need to be changed in his favor. Still feels like they were trying to soften how much better he is than the rest of the cast with all of those "Well, it's not really even, but with the number system we have it's closer to 0 than 1" MUs.

 

[etecoon]

I feel like they were trying to soften how much better he is by not giving him +5 vs peach and DK

I have no objections to 0's vs fox and pika however *shrug*

 

[Tarmogoyf]

@ goyf

That's why you just don't approach snake LOL

Yeah, I know.

Sometimes the ******* has a lead though...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I feel like they were trying to soften how much better he is by not giving him +5 vs peach and DK

I have no objections to 0's vs fox and pika however *shrug*

Yeah, agree with this too. I think MK beats a large part of the cast really badly, but I don't think it's impossible that there is a character out there that avoids being exploited by him badly and manages to exploit his weaknesses. Fox seems really good at this and Pikachu isn't so bad at it either. I wouldn't rule out a 0 match-up just because it's MK but also don't think one incidental convenient 0 match-up makes him less broken LOL

Orion, what level of play are you talking here? Most punishes against Snake don't have to be anywhere near frame perfect, not the common ones anyway. He's pretty laggy. If I shield any tilt, I get a grab or dsmash and you know how slow those moves are. If you're talking about punishing his jab mix-ups those are so fast I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume any level of player could reliably punish them even if they could technically perform them perfectly. Elaborate if I'm missing something.