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Official BBR Tier List v5

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Why are all of you ranking Peach so low?
This will be somewhat long, but I'd like to address this in a more in-depth way than I have in the past, because I tend to oversimplify things which upsets people and I'm not really aiming to do that (usually).

People tend to take this sort of thing too personally so I want to say this before I go any further: Peach players are awesome. This is actually a big part of the problem, though. Despite Peach's army of powerful representation, her best large-scale US placing in recent memory was 13th, by you, actually. This is actually pretty good, but san and Polt pull similar results with Ike and Yoshi much more often. It's not just the results, there are factors contributing to the poorer results than one would expect.

Peach has a lot of very profound strengths that seem outrageously overpowering at first, like her recovery which usually gets her back to the stage (although I sustain she will take a few hits if not get gimped by characters who are good at it), top-notch shield pressure, amazing jab which creates a superb mix-up and interrupt game, unique float mechanics which allow her to control a large amount of space at close and mid-range, fast aerials which large hit zones, and a low-percent string and combo game which virtually guarantees anywhere from 50%-70% damage early in an opponent's stock.

But Peach's problems are near damning. First, Peach moves pretty slowly. This isn't actually her biggest problem or even a big one, but it's worth a quick mention. Her ground speed is somewhat abusable for faster characters. Her air speed is good (though float's speed isn't, not as important) and she has a good glide toss, so she has a few options in terms of approach. After anywhere from 70-100% though depending on the opponent's character, Peach loses options. Her strongest spacing attack starts to stale and since it's also her best kill move, stocks tend to stretch out unless her opponents DI poorly. Also, most of her staple moves that are easy to land start to lose follow-up options, thus Peach is forced to chip away at opponents dair, turnips, jab and stale fair unless an opponent hits her shield after 150% or she gets a hard read. She also gets zoned pretty hard from the front by Marth and other characters with fast disjoints, creating problems for her at the neutral position and off-stage.

Throw in a few virtually unwinnable match-ups at the top level like Meta Knight and you just have a mediocrity cocktail. Peach will always be useful as a secondary for weird match-ups but beyond that I don't see a place for her above C tier, ever.
 

V

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Yo red ryu I can write another 4k+ word essay about why marth shouldnt be a tier on IRC if ya want :p

:phone:
Please do because plenty of people here need convincing that he's not A tier yet pikachu and olimar are. If you drop him to B tier because the gap between The Elite Four and the other viable characters is substantial enough to warrant it, I and many others probably agree. But to say pikachu is better just doesn't make sense. Its debatable that he's better than wario and olimar, but he's definitely better than pikachu. I can probably write an elaborate essay about why results shouldn't be held in high regard, but ill wait until I'm on a computer for that.

:phone:
 

Tagxy

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(:metaknight:)
(:snake: :diddy: :falco:)
(:wario: :marth: :popo: :olimar: :pikachu2:)
(:dedede: :gw: :lucario: :zerosuitsamus: :toonlink: :fox: :wolf:)
(:kirby2: :pit: :peach: :rob: :dk2: :sonic:)
(:ike: :sheilda: :sheik: :ness2: :yoshi2: :luigi2:)
(:pt: :lucas: :mario2: :bowser2: :falcon: :samus2: :link2: :jigglypuff:)
(:zelda: :ganondorf: )

Not in any order really, but these are the sort of "groups" characters are around imo.
 

Seagull Joe

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(:metaknight:)
(:snake: :diddy: :falco:)
(:wario: :marth: :popo: :olimar: :pikachu2:)
(:dedede: :gw: :lucario: :zerosuitsamus: :toonlink: :fox: :wolf:)
(:kirby2: :pit: :peach: :rob: :dk2: :sonic:)
(:ike: :sheilda: :sheik: :ness2: :yoshi2: :luigi2:)
(:pt: :lucas: :mario2: :bowser2: :falcon: :samus2: :link2: :jigglypuff:)
(:zelda: :ganondorf: )

Not in any order really, but these are the sort of "groups" characters are around imo.
Wolf is NOT high tier (Though sadly I kinda agree as much as I love mid tier tourneys). Wolf goes even with or beats every character in the tier you put him in except for D3. I think D3 is better then Lucario, Tl, Lucario, and Wolf in that group. He would belong in the next tier above him under Pikachu. D3 beats Marth, Snake, and Wario. He is even with Diddy and Pikachu. He's -1 vs Olimar, -2 vs Falco, and -3 vs Mk. I think most characters are similar to him in that category in terms of matchups. I don't think Fox is high tier either.
 

Steam

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don't just look at matchups within the tier joe.

top tier= MK tier
2nd tier= other characters that can win nationals
3rd tier= frequent national threats/used to be frequent national threat
4th tier= gets up there every now and again

D3 does good against most of the high tiers, but due to him getting killed by MK he can't really go higher than he is.
 

V

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Honestly, steams criteria for each tier is pretty good. And the top 3 tiers in the above tier list are spot on imo cept marth/wario. What's everybody's opinion of marth vs wario? I haven't heard that argument yet.

:phone:
 

Steam

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Honestly, steams criteria for each tier is pretty good. And the top 3 tiers in the above tier list are spot on imo cept marth/wario. What's everybody's opinion of marth vs wario? I haven't heard that argument yet.

:phone:
I don't agree with the "used to be national threat" part. but I was just translating his list.
 

DMG

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Marth vs Wario as in that MU, or Marth vs Wario as in which one should be above the other?
 

Seagull Joe

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Someone tell me why i shouldn't beat you''re character with tl.
Reasons:
  1. I am good at powershielding.
  2. I don't AD back to the ground when I whiff a boomerang so I won't fall for that Usmash gimmick.
  3. I stay grounded vs TL when I'm at percents he can kill me.
  4. I have a reflector.
  5. My aerials beat out TL's projectiles.
  6. I'm heavy as ****.
  7. TL has a hard time approaching Wolf.
  8. I don't fall for bomb combos.
  9. My recovery and options for getting back on stage are various and harder for TL to predict compared to other characters.
  10. I won't fall for 1st hit of Dsmash at the edge.
  11. My Dsmash/Fair/Bair kill TL reasonably well.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Wolf is NOT high tier (Though sadly I kinda agree as much as I love mid tier tourneys). Wolf goes even with or beats every character in the tier you put him in except for D3. I think D3 is better then Lucario, Tl, Lucario, and Wolf in that group. He would belong in the next tier above him under Pikachu. D3 beats Marth, Snake, and Wario. He is even with Diddy and Pikachu. He's -1 vs Olimar, -2 vs Falco, and -3 vs Mk. I think most characters are similar to him in that category in terms of matchups. I don't think Fox is high tier either.
DDD doesn't beat Snake. He also gets ***** by Diddy

:059:
 

Z'zgashi

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don't just look at matchups within the tier joe.

top tier= MK tier
2nd tier= other characters that can win nationals
3rd tier= frequent national threats/used to be frequent national threat
4th tier= gets up there every now and again

D3 does good against most of the high tiers, but due to him getting killed by MK he can't really go higher than he is.
With this logic, it would look like this (tiers in no real order btw):

top tier= :metaknight:
2nd tier= :diddy: :falco:
3rd tier= :snake: :popo: :olimar: :pikachu2: :zerosuitsamus: :sonic:
4th tier= :wario: :marth: :dedede: :lucario: :toonlink:
 

Steam

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showing up at one tournament does not make sonic a frequent national threat :I

I wouldn't call ZSS a frequent national threat either

and snake belongs in the second tier
 

Seagull Joe

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DDD doesn't beat Snake. He also gets ***** by Diddy

:059:
D3 beats Snake. I've been saying this since 08 and NO Snake has proven me wrong in any tourney setting (Except the D3 slayer Candy). I keep watching D3's end Snake's.

Examples:
Atomsk vs Razer
Razer vs Co18
Coney vs Takeover
Ally vs Co18 (I couldn't find this vid, but remember he beat him in the past).
Co18 vs HRnut
Atomsk vs insert Snake.
Etc...
 

Coney

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D3 beats Snake. I've been saying this since 08 and NO Snake has proven me wrong in any tourney setting (Except the D3 slayer Candy). I keep watching D3's end Snake's.

Examples:
Atomsk vs Razer
Razer vs Co18
Coney vs Takeover
Ally vs Co18 (I couldn't find this vid, but remember he beat him in the past).
Co18 vs HRnut
Atomsk vs insert Snake.
Etc...
wow, i can't tell if you're leaving out the most recent evidence purposely or not

you realize that in the most recent sets...

razer has beaten atomsk
mvd has beaten me
fatal has beaten co18

all three of those were sometime after each of the sets you've listed

will you please get off this notion? it's old, tired and frankly, pretty stupid. ddd doesn't win, i'm honestly not even sure if it's even (seibrik, atomsk and i all think ddd loses the matchup), but it's CERTAINLY not in ddd's favor. pull your head out.
 

Alphicans

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It's funny how I've constantly seen top snakes say they lose the match-up and then I see you say top DDD's say they lose it. It's ********.

IMO snake just isn't that great of a character, and DDD exploits a lot of his weaknesses. It just seems obvious that DDD wins.
 

Alphicans

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The logic here is so poor. Snakes say they do bad so they MUST be underrating it right? Not so for the other characters though... I see how it works on smashboards.
 

Coney

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look, whether or not ddd loses the matchup, who cares. i'm painted by personal bias, so i have no opinion about that. however, i think it's abundantly clear that ddd doesn't win, and it is even at best.

i've been known to underrate ddd, so my personal opinion really doesn't carry much weight, but i don't see how you can look at the top ddds losing to top snakes and say he wins like it's 2008. it's not. ddd has just as much trouble landing as snake does, gets punished horribly, and his awful mobility makes avoiding explosions near impossible. don't tell me snake has flaws too, i KNOW he does, THAT IS HOW A MATCHUP WORKS, i'm just trying to get across the point that ddd is by no means a snake counter.

oh yeah, and lol at the notion of ddd/diddy being even, or olimar only being -1. that's stupid.

after my set with MVD at pound, we both relaxed and joked with each other; "i was so scared! one mistake means a ton of damage!" "no, i was so scared! one grab means a ton of damage!" this matchup is difficult for both characters for different reasons, it's just easy (and attractive) to say that ddd's grab control is easier than setting up snake's grenades and explosions.

IT'S NOT.
 

Chuee

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The logic here is so poor. Snakes say they do bad so they MUST be underrating it right? Not so for the other characters though... I see how it works on smashboards.
No.
I just hear most snake's say he loses to this and that, while pretty much everyone on the other side say they don't win.
 

Alphicans

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That's kind of my point >_>. Why are you pinning it on the snakes, when it could just be the other characters *****ing about him. Snake is a character you have to be good at vsing, and lower level players probably aren't good vs snake. That could easily explain this situation.

Good snakes will vs someone who is good vs snake and lose. They now think it's a tough match-up.

X player who plays X character (who is not that great vs snake [maybe good vs everyone else]) loses to a good snake and says they lose to snake.
 

Coney

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That's kind of my point >_>. Why are you pinning it on the snakes, when it could just be the other characters *****ing about him. Snake is a character you have to be good at vsing, and lower level players probably aren't good vs snake. That could easily explain this situation.
i just brought up that me, atomsk and co18, the three top ddds ever, have all lost to a snake relatively recently. are you saying that we're all bad against snake?
 

Alphicans

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No. I was responding to Chuee, not you.

I am talking in a general sense anyways. Plus snakes will still say they lose to DDD. I am not going weigh your opinion more heavily than theirs.
 

Ripple

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you just don't abuse jet hammer enough coney. it's key to the match up
 

Chuee

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That's kind of my point >_>. Why are you pinning it on the snakes, when it could just be the other characters *****ing about him. Snake is a character you have to be good at vsing, and lower level players probably aren't good vs snake. That could easily explain this situation.

Good snakes will vs someone who is good vs snake and lose. They now think it's a tough match-up.

X player who plays X character (who is not that great vs snake [maybe good vs everyone else]) loses to a good snake and says they lose to snake.
I see a lot of top players with experience in said MU disagree with what everyone seems to think.
People say D3 beats Snake. Top D3's say it's even.
People say Olimar beats Snake. Razer (who I think's played most top olimars) says snake wins.
People say Falco beats Snake. Larry says its even.
etc.
The only MUs most people can agree that snake loses are MK and Marth.
 

Alphicans

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Ok, then we're in agreement?

My whole point was that you shouldn't just discredit what snakes say by saying the are underrating/overrating the match-up. This goes for any character though. Every opinion from a top level player is important.
 
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