Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[tarextherex]

Ganon also loses to Yoshi -4. If the order matters then Olimar is possibly worse than ICs, and Yoshi is actually worse than Sheik, Ganon actually has less safe stuff on Yoshi then Sheik, for exemple Ganon's dtilt can beat Sheik's ftilt is well spaced I think.

 

[Doc King]

Ganon also loses to Yoshi -4. If the order matters then Olimar is possibly worse than ICs, and Yoshi is actually worse than Sheik, Ganon actually has less safe stuff on Yoshi then Sheik, for exemple Ganon's dtilt can beat Sheik's ftilt is well spaced I think.

The order does matter. I thought Ice Climbers were worse than Oli because of their chaingrab and their recovery isn't as bad as Olimars. They're both really bad along with D3 and Falco.

It seems like a bunch of characters have a +4 on Ganon since his defense and speed is just horrid.

 

[phi1ny3]

I don't see how ganon can safely do anything to SH chain camp once sheik get the lead, nor be able to effectively recover momentum from a full tilt lock (tilt lock goes for a looooooong time) or gimp. It's definitely one of his worst.

@tarextherex: ftilt spaced is not punishable by ganon if he blocks if that's what you meant, maybe on whiff, but Sheik's hurtbox is more or less above the range dtilt would cover I would think.

 

[Fuujin]

Ganon also loses to Yoshi -4.

Finding it very hard to beleive that Yoshi hs +4 on anyone...

 

[Chuee]

Finding it very hard to beleive that Yoshi hs +4 on anyone...

Yoshi puts Ganon in the worst position from his CG.

 

[Delta-cod]

Not to mention that it's extremely safe to spam Pivot Grab against Ganon anyways.

 

[Fuujin]

But Yoshi is bad...

 

[Ghostbone]

But Yoshi is bad...

But Ganon is incredibly bad...

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo, Ganon is harder than Bowser, but both are borderline -3 or -4. The only reason I say Ganon is harder, is because it seems like if we make some big fatal mistake, Ganon punishes a bit harder, but maybe thats just me knowing Bowser really well as he's one of my secondaries.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't see how ganon can safely do anything to SH chain camp once sheik get the lead, nor be able to effectively recover momentum from a full tilt lock (tilt lock goes for a looooooong time) or gimp. It's definitely one of his worst.

It surely is. Comparing how Ganon does vs Sheik / Snake is really just a matter of "how much worse can it get" though. Snake is virtually immune to ~90% of Ganon's moveset if he only knows when to crouch against what move. Every other of Ganon's move directly loses to ftilt 1, utilt and pivot grab. Kinda like Sheik with the chain except that Snake deals twice the damage in half the amount of time and doesn't need the "once he has the lead" to auto-win it. Not that it matters because he shouldn't beat Sheik but technically it's the "worse" match-up imo.

 

[Judo777]

I would agree with you on Wario being Ganon's better top/high tier matchups. I don't know how hard the chaingrab is.

Ganon's worst matchups are probably like this (-4 matchups):

1) Climbers
2) Olimar
3) King Dedede
4) Falco
5) Sheilda
6) Sheik

Note that I didn't put in because it doesn't matter anymore since he's gonna be banned soon.

Sheik vs Ganon is worse than any of these other MU's. Sheik Ganon is probably the most one sided MU in smash.

Also Sheik Ganon = Sheilda Ganon

 

[Z'zgashi]

Id say Oli beats Ganon worse than ICies due to the 'Nana being stupid and not listening' factor, and the 'we rely on chain grabs between two characters that both have their own individual trip chance, so we trip and screw up the CG', etc.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Pretty sure blizzard is the main reason why ics destroy ganon, not the CG

 

[infiniteV115]

Does Sopo beat Ganon? XD

 

[Alphicans]

He probably does.

 

[Doc King]

But Yoshi is bad...

Yoshi is actually mediocre.

But Ganon is incredibly bad...

Ganon is a very bad character. I think pretty soon he'll have a tier of his own again.

Pretty sure blizzard is the main reason why ics destroy ganon, not the CG

That's what I've heard. Also because it's hard for Ganon to land anything.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Does Sopo beat Ganon? XD

Dthrow CG lasts pretty long on Ganon.

 

[Fuujin]

Sheik vs Ganon is worse than any of these other MU's. Sheik Ganon is probably the most one sided MU in smash.

Also Sheik Ganon = Sheilda Ganon

Sheild = Sheik#2 pretty much

Still not sure why Sheilda is on the tier list and not "Samus -> ZSS"

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

if you really wanna get technical yall should give each pokemon an individual tier placement even though they have forced switch out. the fact is they are all different chars and have different MUs so why not give them some detail?

 

[Fuujin]

if you really wanna get technical yall should give each pokemon an individual tier placement even though they have forced switch out. the fact is they are all different chars and have different MUs so why not give them some detail?

But you have to play at least two pokeman a match or whatever.

The argument for Sheilda is that you can use both characters to the best of their abilities for different situations (lol).

The same argument could be used for Samus -> ZSS.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

but you can't go ZSS-> Samus
without a smashball

 

[Fuujin]

but you can't go ZSS-> Samus
without a smashball

Which is why there should just be a "Samus ->ZSS" and not "Samus/ZSS".

 

[Man of Popsicle]

You guys messed up Ness. A lot.

 

[Ussi]

Which is why there should just be a "Samus ->ZSS" and not "Samus/ZSS".

there isn't a single MU Samus does better than ZSS

 

[Fuujin]

there isn't a single MU Samus does better than ZSS

Arguably the same could be said for Zelda and Sheik.

 

[phi1ny3]

It surely is. Comparing how Ganon does vs Sheik / Snake is really just a matter of "how much worse can it get" though. Snake is virtually immune to ~90% of Ganon's moveset if he only knows when to crouch against what move. Every other of Ganon's move directly loses to ftilt 1, utilt and pivot grab. Kinda like Sheik with the chain except that Snake deals twice the damage in half the amount of time and doesn't need the "once he has the lead" to auto-win it. Not that it matters because he shouldn't beat Sheik but technically it's the "worse" match-up imo.

Not to beat a dead horse, since at the end of the day Ganon's still a terribad character who shouldn't win against both of these chars, but although snake's does more in a bulk, Sheik's ftilt lock (another really good damage racker) is capable of doing more damage in one "string" of attacks.

Not to mention sheik is really good at gimping ganon (at least compared to snake) because of her aerials (fair and bair especially), needles, tether hog, etc., so to me, it's really a "pick your poison" sort of deal.

The main difference is I think while sheik is capable of killing ganon earlier because of the offstage game and rack more damage to make up for it, Ganon in turn is able to kill sheik/mess her up more than snake because of her weak KO resistance/fall speed. Snake's probably the safer choice because it's much harder to punish ftilt1/utilt than it is sheik's mispaced things, but at the end of the day I think that at top play, the chances of getting hit for both are minimal

 

[Ussi]

Arguably the same could be said for Zelda and Sheik.

No way i will see Zelda doing worse than Sheik against Pikachu :\

Also there is a benefit to using Zelda against... DDD

in theory I guess


on a side note i don't think Shielda should exist since it doesn't do much besides take up a spot after shiek.

 

[Fuujin]

No way i will see Zelda doing worse than Sheik against Pikachu :\

Also there is a benefit to using Zelda against... DDD

in theory I guess


on a side note i don't think Shielda should exist since it doesn't do much besides take up a spot after shiek.

The same logic put into Sheilda could be put into ZSS.
The whole, "Zelda for kill % "could translate to" ZSS armor pieces for kill %"(albeit only on on stock
Or "Use Zelda not to get chain grabbed." could go like "Use Samus not to get chain grabbed.".
When at the end of the day your best bet is to use the better character 95% of the time.
Imo it's pointless to have characters like these on the tier list, but you can't just put one when the same logic applies to another.

 

[Shaya]

The use of sheik + zelda together actually exists in the metagame.
Samus -> ZSS does not. If people actually started to use the combination in some capacity some sort of list of MUs + 'tier list position' would probably come into creation.

 

[Fuujin]

The use of sheik + zelda together actually exists in the metagame.
Samus -> ZSS does not. If people actually started to use the combination in some capacity some sort of list of MUs + 'tier list position' would probably come into creation.

Me and ScaryEd are like the only people who use Sheilda and neither of us just pick Zelda for the two match ups she's supposedly better on.
I highly doubt the addition was made just because of the two of us using them.
Just because no one uses them is a very poor excuse to leave a character out of the tier list.

 

[Shaya]

I don't agree with you when you say its a poor excuse, sorry for not pandering to your fantasies on the matter

 

[Fuujin]

Sometimes I touch my self fantasizing about a Samus -> ZSS appearing on the tier list.

 

[infiniteV115]

They should make a character icon for it like they did with Sheilda
Perhaps the current Samus icon with the ponytail sticking out
Or an icon of ZSS wearing the helmet
XD

 

[Judo777]

Me and ScaryEd are like the only people who use Sheilda and neither of us just pick Zelda for the two match ups she's supposedly better on.
I highly doubt the addition was made just because of the two of us using them.
Just because no one uses them is a very poor excuse to leave a character out of the tier list.

Try again. Also I solo Zelda against Pika, and IC's. I also use Sheik and Zelda against Rob, D3, and Pika if my Zelda is losing.

Also Sheik Ganon is worse than Snake Ganon for a few reasons. One Sheik has one move that Ganondorf literally can never touch (on paper but that's not realistic, btw its chain). Sheiks moves are faster than Snakes in general and due to Ganon's weight rack damage just as well if not better (Sheik can practically tilt lock Ganon to death 30%-death). Sheik can gimp Ganon way easier as stated. Needles shut down Ganon's entire approach game. Her crouch is just as good if not better than Snakes. Sheiks juggle game is better than Snakes.

Fun fact is he air releases GR>DACUS is guaranteed.

 

[Flayl]

A lot of people talking about Sheik+Zelda never mention how easier it is for Zelda to get the KO on fat characters, why is that? Shiek+Zelda doesn't mean Only Sheik + only Zelda

 

[Z'zgashi]

Sheilda is using both characters to their best ability. If that means that switching to Zelda in a match up is a bad idea, then Sheilda is just solo Sheik for that match up. Saying that you're forced to switch is like saying Ganon is forced to use utilt because it's available to him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Who was saying that Sheilda is forced to switch? o_O

Anyway, I personally believe that the point of Match-up charts is to spread knowledge as simply as possible. Adding Samus/ZSS as a single slot would be pointless as knowing such a character's match-ups would serve no purpose to the target audience of the chart (competitive players).

On the other hand, I believe that the Pokemon Trainer's individual Pokemon should have their own spots as well as the group spot, because knowing their individual MUs actually is useful and relevant information.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Oh, my bad, I misread Flayl's post. Lol, it's late, give me a break haha.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Actually, Snake can edgeguard Ganon pretty badly as well.

 

[Ussi]

Actually, Snake can edgeguard Ganon pretty badly as well.

just about everyone can...