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Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

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Doc King

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really? you didnt know that I was refering to ddd offstage and ike trying to gimp him?







Really? and you respond with


you were either being stupid or ignorant. maybe both. since it was very clear what the topic was. at least the one that i was talking about.
I thought u guys were talking about when D3 is on stage. I never knew about the off stage thing. I should read my post more carefully next time. :p

Never seen this technique before so, I don't really have anything to say. Although D3 can gimp Ike so great. It's so easy to read Ike's aether and his side b can get canceled with some of D3's moves.

It seems kind of hard to determine matchups unless if you have both character mains who know the matchup well.
 

da K.I.D.

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personally, mains arent really required as long as youre smart enough to analyse things properly.

example. I dont play Ike, or Ice Climbers, but Im a smart player, and two of the best people in my region play those two character so ive seen the matchup play out so many times, and im smart enough to read between the lines and see whats going on that I can adaquately speak on and explain that particular matchup.
 

Doc King

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Ivysaur and Charizard both do alright with platforms (Ivysaur gets a nice aerial wall and Charizard gets super-safe Flamethrower). They have the range to keep Dedede from getting in, they both edgeguard him well, and they both can do a lot of damage within a few hits. Ivysaur can't do much damage without putting herself at great risk, though, and Dedede lives much longer, obviously. Also, if you think taking a stock from Ivysaur is as simple as getting a grab, I can tell you now that you're wrong. Dedede gimps Ivysaur with a hard read at the edge, but not much else. Ivysaur B-Air outranges all of Dedede's edgeguarding methods, and you have to guess exactly when Ivysaur will use her double-jump in order to prevent her from getting to the ledge.

Squirtle ends up doing okay against Dedede. He's sort of like Wario, except his ground game allows him to compete on the ground with more than grab. Squirtle can camp Dedede quite hard with shellshift stuff, too. I'd say -1 Squirtle, -1 Charizard, -2 Ivysaur (on, like, not-Final Destination), and I'd average it as a -2.
I would say something like -1 or -2 for Squirtle. D3 can edge guard him pretty well and punish his rco lag pretty well.

Ivysaur sucks against D3. You just have to chaingrab and gimp off and you're done. Like +4 or +3 imo.

Charizard is actually pretty bad against D3. D3 can chaingrab the crap outta him and even has this downward slope infinite and ledge infinite. Also he has some good followups on him like down throw to down tilt. Bair is a good combo move also on Charizard. And D3's can punish Charizard's rco lag pretty good along with his recovery. I think it should be like +4 or +3.

The thing is that D3 can edge guard them all pretty well and 2 of them have pretty bad rco lag situations. 1 of them D3 has infinites on. I think overall this is a +3 or a +4. But man, this matchup is hella bad.
 

TheReflexWonder

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I would say something like -1 or -2 for Squirtle. D3 can edge guard him pretty well and punish his rco lag pretty well.

Ivysaur sucks against D3. You just have to chaingrab and gimp off and you're done. Like +4 or +3 imo.

Charizard is actually pretty bad against D3. D3 can chaingrab the crap outta him and even has this downward slope infinite and ledge infinite. Also he has some good followups on him like down throw to down tilt. Bair is a good combo move also on Charizard. And D3's can punish Charizard's rco lag pretty good along with his recovery. I think it should be like +4 or +3.

The thing is that D3 can edge guard them all pretty well and 2 of them have pretty bad rco lag situations. 1 of them D3 has infinites on. I think overall this is a +3 or a +4. But man, this matchup is hella bad.
I didn't know about a ledge infinite on Charizard. Is that on any slope, from any distance? If so, that's rough.

That said, you completely ignored the things that I said, so I'm just gonna leave it alone.
 

Doc King

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Ivysaur and Charizard both do alright with platforms (Ivysaur gets a nice aerial wall and Charizard gets super-safe Flamethrower). They have the range to keep Dedede from getting in, they both edgeguard him well, and they both can do a lot of damage within a few hits. Ivysaur can't do much damage without putting herself at great risk, though, and Dedede lives much longer, obviously. Also, if you think taking a stock from Ivysaur is as simple as getting a grab, I can tell you now that you're wrong. Dedede gimps Ivysaur with a hard read at the edge, but not much else. Ivysaur B-Air outranges all of Dedede's edgeguarding methods, and you have to guess exactly when Ivysaur will use her double-jump in order to prevent her from getting to the ledge.

Squirtle ends up doing okay against Dedede. He's sort of like Wario, except his ground game allows him to compete on the ground with more than grab. Squirtle can camp Dedede quite hard with shellshift stuff, too. I'd say -1 Squirtle, -1 Charizard, -2 Ivysaur (on, like, not-Final Destination), and I'd average it as a -2.
I didn't know about a ledge infinite on Charizard. Is that on any slope, from any distance? If so, that's rough.

That said, you completely ignored the things that I said, so I'm just gonna leave it alone.
I didn't completely ignored the things you said. I just stated the things that you didn't mention about D3.

You seem to overrate having safe options as completely changing matchups. Having safe options is good, but it won't make a matchup completely in there advantage. Also, D3 can ftilt Charizards rock smash.

The ledge infinite is where you dash dance pivot grab on flat stages (Sort of like the Wolf ledge infinite except you have to dash dance pivot grab).
 

TheReflexWonder

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I didn't completely ignored the things you said. I just stated the things that you didn't mention about D3.

You seem to overrate having safe options as completely changing matchups. Having safe options is good, but it won't make a matchup completely in there advantage. Also, D3 can ftilt Charizards rock smash.

The ledge infinite is where you dash dance pivot grab on flat stages (Sort of like the Wolf ledge infinite except you have to dash dance pivot grab).
"Dedede needs a hard read after a chaingrab to gimp Ivysaur."

"Ivysaur sucks; just grab him and gimp him."

>_>

The thing about fighting Dedede is, Dedede can't approach, so if you can keep him out reliably and realistically deal damage while doing so, the matchup won't be that bad.

Also, I've never seen anyone do that infinite outside of frame-perfect slow-mo.
 

Tesh

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Doc King just overrated small parts of matchups and rants about nonsense. Just don't respond to it Reflex. Last month he thought RCO lag turned every matchup into -3.
 

Doc King

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"Dedede needs a hard read after a chaingrab to gimp Ivysaur."

"Ivysaur sucks; just grab him and gimp him."

>_>

The thing about fighting Dedede is, Dedede can't approach, so if you can keep him out reliably and realistically deal damage while doing so, the matchup won't be that bad.

Also, I've never seen anyone do that infinite outside of frame-perfect slow-mo.
lol D3 can approach. and it's not hard to read the rock smash, just f tilt or waddle or something. D3 doesn't really need a hard read. Sure needs a good read, but not a tough one.

I've been pretty successful in doing the Dash Dance Pivot Grab infinite. It's not that hard to do. :p U just dash dance to a pivot grab. I even comboed a Wario before to 0% to 100% before by doing this infinite on a slope.
Doc King just overrated small parts of matchups and rants about nonsense. Just don't respond to it Reflex. Last month he thought RCO lag turned every matchup into -3.
lol i never said that rco lag turned every matchup into a -3 on everyone. I was just telling u guys that RCO Lag is an important part of D3's metagame and can be useful in some matchups like Marth, Mario, Falcon, and Ganon.
 

TheReflexWonder

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lol D3 can approach. and it's not hard to read the rock smash, just f tilt or waddle or something. D3 doesn't really need a hard read. Sure needs a good read, but not a tough one.
In all of my previous posts, I never mentioned Rock Smash.
 

TheReflexWonder

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That's true. I was assuming u meant that by Charizard spacing himself. If that's not it then what is it that you're talking about?
Never mind.

Also, on an unrelated note, I challenge the notion that Snake beats PT any harder than +1. :D
 

Jimmyfosho

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Being sarcastic and pointing out the obvious.
lol D3 can approach. and it's not hard to read the rock smash, just f tilt or waddle or something. D3 doesn't really need a hard read. Sure needs a good read, but not a tough one.

I've been pretty successful in doing the Dash Dance Pivot Grab infinite. It's not that hard to do. :p U just dash dance to a pivot grab. I even comboed a Wario before to 0% to 100% before by doing this infinite on a slope.


lol i never said that rco lag turned every matchup into a -3 on everyone. I was just telling u guys that RCO Lag is an important part of D3's metagame and can be useful in some matchups like Marth, Mario, Falcon, and Ganon.
how is it useful against mario,falcon and ganon... D3 already ***** all of them without the "rco garb"
 

Doc King

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how is it useful against mario,falcon and ganon... D3 already ***** all of them without the "rco garb"
Because of their crappy recoveries and for Ganon how he can't get up to the stage by double jumping to the stage since his double jump is too low. Also how they are chain grabbable and their rco lag is pretty laggy.
 

TheReflexWonder

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*grabs squirtle*
*grabs zard*
*grabs ivysaur*

only +1? :3
It's your sword, not your grab. :(

Unless you're talking about Snake, in which case, totally.

Because of their crappy recoveries and for Ganon how he can't get up to the stage by double jumping to the stage since his double jump is too low. Also how they are chain grabbable and their rco lag is pretty laggy.
Ganon can get on the stage from the ledge via double-jump -> U-Air, since it shifts his body upward. It's still not all that safe, but it doesn't have a ton of lag and gives him one more option.
 

Shaya

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I was talking about Snake.

Perhaps Snake hugging, singing lullabies while tucking them into bed and waking up the pokes is only +1 in the cuteness scale, but I'm not sure if the mu over all is that easy for them :o
 

TheReflexWonder

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I was talking about Snake.
GOTTA GRAB ME FIRST

Besides, I'm not even sure what's particularly threatening about it. Sure, he gets F-Tilt, and he has B-Air on Squirtle at the edge, but D-Throw's "one in three" guessing game just turns into "one in two" for Charizard, as far as I can tell...

Snake can't camp very effectively because all of PT's projectiles make it difficult for Snake to make his projectiles work.

He gets juggled pretty easily and he doesn't find it easy to get in on a stage with platforms.

Snake wins because he's heavy and dumb, and because the defensive options in Brawl are really good, but I don't think it's all that bad. It's certainly my favorite high tier matchup with him.
 

Alphicans

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It's pretty broken. You can cg to wherever you can and then bthrow, so you get like an additional 10 ~ 30% + the 16 from a bthrow which is a lot of damage, or you can force them off stage and possibly do an extra 30% just from edgeguarding or even kill them! The cg itself is amazing, but then DDD as a character kind of flops.

Ninja'd >_>
 

PMC66

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Originally Posted by Thiocyanide View Post
I don't understand why people care about low tier MUs.

The characters aren't relevant to begin with. It's like asking how a minor league team measures up to the Yankees.
------------------------------------------------------


So the underdog never wins?

LT still has a solid chance of winning depending on the player really.
If a LT plays another LT, the MU experience still counts.
I've seen LT's dominate HT/MT players.
It is unwise to discredit your opponent, no matter who it is.

As far as the Wolf/ROB MU goes, I give it to ROB. No offense to Wolf players but I think ROB has the slight advantage, but it doesn't mean you can't win against ROB either. It's only a slight MU lead.
R.O.B bottom 5 worthy he can't kill for anything his F-air is his only good spacer and that leaves him an extended hurtbox meaning he's easy to punish out of it. R.O.B can't camp for crap either laser is slow so's gyro in my opinion they're wifi moves even in brawl vids of offline players i rarely see laser connect with anyone, Gyro meh ok i've gyro be useful but when wolf has a reflector and a F-air to grab it easily yeah sure R.O.B wins. He's just U-air bait, and he can't aproach for the life of him because he's so slow,wolf's combo ability is quite good he's got alot of the kind of moves that if they surprise the player they work.

i'm going to put this in lamens terms

Wolf: has a fast air speed, fast attacks, good kill moves, a projectile that can actually zone to an extent. he also has better and faster oos options e.g. reflector, N-air, F-air, B-air, D-smash can kill R.O.B efficiently and R.O.B is easy to combo out of throws. at percents as late as more than 60% wolf can F-throw to Bdacus him yes percents that late can work


R.O.B: granted he has a better recovery. But he has poor OOS options and i will not be convinved other wise on this all he has is down smash and F-air. down smash and F**ing F-air and D-smash is DIable. all his killers are slow he has even less combo ability than alot of low tier to be quite frank. He is as 3-Dimensional as carboard anyone who understands how R.O.B works will beat him with more than 3/4s of the roster in general. He's slow he's linear all he really has is F-air as a wall of pain and a glide toss projectile. His throws are good though. F-tilt is decent at high percents for forcing opponents off stage

i'd say 50-50 on stage he looses off stage he fairs better in comparison with wolf so it's more of a stage dependent MU. I think wolf wins by a little bit because R.O.B's F-air is pretty easy to punish and most of his moves are easy to oos counter. But neither side has anything much on the other to tip it in their favor, wolf in general lives longer and can kill better but R.O.B has a better Gimp game. But a high level wolf and a high level R.O.B the wolf will most likely win tbh.

just my opinion. Just so you know i'm not a biased wolf fanboy either i main Mario. Been my main since SSB64.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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hold up, im not gonna throw out a number for this but you're not giving rob enough credit for a lot of his good qualities.

first off, his dsmash is faster than pretty much any move wolf has out of shield so idk why you are saying it's the other way around. also it's better just to take dsmash depending on where you are in the move because if you sdi it anywhere but near the tip you aren't gonna get out all the way and he can just do it again and you wind up taking more damage than if you had just taken the 12%.

second off, rob has GREAT spacing options besides just fair. robs ftilt is longer than snakes and it has a little disjoint at the end to make his hurt box safe plus it can be angled. his jab is fast and has good range and when used in conjunction with ftilt can make getting in on rob a little more work then most most characters. then you also have his spammable dtilt. his dtilt is fast, locks people against walls, and has a good trip rate which combos into stuff. plus it's range is pretty decent

also for dealing with people above you ROBs utilt has ungodly vertical range along with being really fast and hard to escape getting hit by it more than once especially for wolf if he gets hit in it early on. even with good DI you will probably get hit 2-3 times if he catches you early on with it. plus that sets up for his uair (which i know he can shine through. but if he shines and rob read it and uses his slow but powerful usmash, wolf is gonna feel it so don't be predictable here)


and then obviously fair is a great spacing tool. the only problem with rob is the telegraph his strong kill moves provide you to move. his fsmash is weaker than the others but faster than the others so idk about kills that aren't on read with like, nair and bair and full charge gyro.)


that's all i wanted to point out, he's better than you give him credit for

no character bias either, ima pit
 

Steam

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just my opinion. Just so you know i'm not a biased wolf fanboy either i main Mario. Been my main since SSB64.
no he hasn't. for most of brawl you've been a wolf main. You're the guy who always said he was at least B tier and that he went even with or beat pikachu.

and lol RoB is nowhere near bottom 5 worthy. and Ftilt is by far his best spacer...
 

Ishiey

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PMC, why'd you quote a post from March lol. Fthrow > dacus isn't guaranteed on anyone ever btw, pretty much positive about that. Good DI + a timed AD = you're probably going to eat a dsmash from ROB :x

It's even, or at least close enough to even to be considered a 0 imo. And I know most other Wolf players share the same thoughts. We're about to discuss it in the matchup chart project, actually. Once that's done I'll have a write-up of the main points to release with the new chart, so I'll save most of my thoughts for then :p you did bring up some good points though, like OoS options and whatnot. Wolf is great OoS :3 No way ROB's dropping outside of his current tier though, just... no way.

Maharba, ROB's dsmash and Wolf's jab are both frame 4, as is Wolf's nair. ROB's dsmash is still a good punisher in this MU, but if it's shielded Wolf gets a free fair/bair/usmash OoS, which puts ROB in an unfavorable position (vulnerable to bair chaining / uair juggling). His tilts and whatnot sure are annoying though :/ ROB should definitely stay grounded in this MU.

Steam, Wolf DOES beat Pikachu though... :( idk, maybe that's pushing it lol, but most Wolves really don't think it's that bad. There'll be a write-up for this MU too when the chart's released.

:059:
 
D

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Steam, Wolf DOES beat Pikachu though... :( idk, maybe that's pushing it lol, but most Wolves really don't think it's that bad. There'll be a write-up for this MU too when the chart's released.

:059:
If the CG didn't exist, then Wolf would win the MU hands down.
 

Ishiey

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Agreed. I think it'd be in about the same range as the Peach MU, like +1 or so.

Honestly the MU just needs to be developed more, it's so underexplored. I really think Wolf has the tools to not get grabbed at high-level play. Hopefully I'll get to play a bunch of good Pikas at APEX and see how my strategies work out :3

:059:
 

Maharba the Mystic

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would those strategies happen to consist of jumping a lot, using blaster, spacing bairs and fairs, and shining stuff?

lol jk wolf is actually a really in depth character. if he didn't get cg'd by peeps and other stupid spacie disadvantages he would be such a high tier. i mean think about a wolf that doesn't get cg'd, tilt locked, and gimped as easily and damn, that's a force to be reckoned with.

too bad that's not how it is though :(
 

Ishiey

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Well... yes. lol except throw in some reflector/platform camping as well, that's important.

And yeah, stupid CGs :/ half of our bad MUs are because of silly things like that. Gotta take the good with the bad though. Gimping isn't really a big issue actually, people overrate Wolf's gimability. Well, either that or they don't actually pull it off in practice :p upB is trash though, Fox can jump into it and shine us after getting hit lol

:059:
 

phi1ny3

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Yeah, his recovery's deceptively tough to edgeguard, if the wolf isn't bad and always goes onto the stage or makes it predictable (like w/ Falco)
 

Maharba the Mystic

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well maybe for yoooouuuu guys. as for me tho, mirror shield along with arrows, bair, AR, and WOI push don't make gimping an offstage wolf to big a deal :troll:


oh ya, that's just me. nvm for yall gimping wolf may be more of an issue :troll: :troll:

nah but for reals wolf isn't that bad about not getting gimped

.............. :troll: :troll: :troll:
 

Ishiey

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The thing is, for example, Yoshi can 0-death Wario from any % but that doesn't make it a lopsided matchup. Wario can avoid grabs and play on areas of the stage where the GR won't be effective. Same applies for Wolf, kiiinda, in the sense that it might be possible in theory but hasn't been proven since there aren't many Wolf players at a high level and nobody plays Wolf/Pika enough to really be experienced in the MU :p

Even if Pikachu never gets a grab, the fact that the CG exists still helps him a ton. Wolf has great OoS punishing options, but when you run a high risk of death by shielding on the same platform as Pikachu, you tend to not use that option lol

well maybe for yoooouuuu guys. as for me tho, mirror shield along with arrows, bair, AR, and WOI push don't make gimping an offstage wolf to big a deal :troll:


oh ya, that's just me. nvm for yall gimping wolf may be more of an issue :troll: :troll:

nah but for reals wolf isn't that bad about not getting gimped

.............. :troll: :troll: :troll:
Wolf/Pit has never really been played at a high level either. Sounds good in theory though, just like Pit's MU spread :troll:

Nah, I actually think Pit's got a pretty solid MU spread. He also has the tools to gimp Wolf, but idk, most of those seem situational at best. Arrows can definitely be a pain though :/

:059:
 

Ishiey

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Nair has a ridiculous hitbox but it's rather slow... frame 18 is basically avoidable/punishable on reaction, at least for Wolf (shield or run away on ground, fair/bair/uair before it comes out or shine if you're too close in the air).

:059:
 

Maharba the Mystic

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well i actually play the wolf MU a good amount which is why i said that stuff. it works for me. sure im only high-mid level same with the wolfs i play. not top level by any means but we ain't bad by any means. and yes, they each are situational but he has enough moves to cover pretty much every situation. it's just a matter of guessing/reading how he's gonna recover. of course wolf has options to mix up but our gimping ability in this MU is how we make up for having a hard time landing our kill moves.
 
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