Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Delta-cod]

Of course he got lazy halfway through, he put Yoshi Vs MK -3.

Cuz it is.

I've heard many Yoshi mains claim that the match-up is overrated for Yoshi, would a -2.5 be more accurate?

-3 is fine.

Basically how I see the MU works.

MK that doesn't know it: Will get punished by Pivot grab for approaching stupidly all the time and eventually start jumping/dairing thinking they're smart to avoid grabs, but to only be pelted by eggs the whole match and eventually lose.

MK That Knows It: Will do basic MK stuff with simple reads during Yoshi's most laggiest moves (Egg toss DownB etc.), making sure to keep him offstage using Fair Dair or Shuttle loop the whole time and win.

So, -3.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I don't think I'd take someones word on MK being -3 when that very same person also thinks Marth Vs Yoshi is Even.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can see that.

Marth is mad overrated.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

not really, marth's MU's don't really seem skewed at all. he's a great character and with MK gone he will be in top tier roughly around march im guessing since most tournies will keep using MK until apex is done.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Marth has so many even match-ups, he is just really ordinary :/

That is why I would not be surprised if Yoshi goes even with him.

 

[BlueXenon]

Is it possible that Falco and Rob can be even?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

it isn't even but it should only be -1 imo

 

[BlueXenon]

I think depending on the stage it can be -1 or even.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well if you're taking cp stages into account......

 

[Z'zgashi]

Marth has so many even match-ups, he is just really ordinary :/

That is why I would not be surprised if Yoshi goes even with him.

We dont have a shield.

 

[Doc King]

I'm just gonna make another matchup chart on what I think D3's matchups should be. This is my 2nd one. I made the 1st one like a month ago.

-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:
+3:
+4:

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i would think falco and ICs would be -3 since they don't seem like they would be in the same class as olimar and zss. idk tho as i don't play those MUs with him

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike is not -3 when going up against D3.

Try again. This ain't 2008.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Ike is not -3 when going up against Ike.

Try again. This ain't 2008.

what? I don't get it ike counters ike -3?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd definitely switch Snake and TL @ Doc's MU spread for DDD. ZSS / DDD match-up is so much based on theory idk what to think of it.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

he's saying D3 vs Ike isn't +3 in D3s favor.

Not gonna respond myself because it's doc king lol

 

[Nidtendofreak]

what? I don't get it ike counters ike -3?

Nah, Ike counters Ike -2. Counter just destroys Aether recovery after all, but it is possible to get around.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If it's not +3 in DDDs favor, then what else is it supposed to be?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

After testing, I've found that PT can reliably Zero Switch on four of the seven neutral stages. X vs. Squirtle is now potentially guaranteed on Game 1.

Check it, son.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If it's not +3 in DDDs favor, then what else is it supposed to be?

Somewhere in between +3 and +2, leaning more towards +2.

MK was +3. D3 isn't anywhere near that bad. He's jab bait for basically anything we do out of jab, and Ike can overall gimp D3 slightly easier than he gimps us, though its pretty silly either way once a character is off stage. And then there is B-throw -> Dash Attack shenanigans, with it's large true combo % range.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

loooooooooooool

i absolutely call bull **** on ike being better at gimping D3 in that MU. what a crock of ****.

 

[da K.I.D.]

a lot of people dont know a lot about ike so i cant blame you for thinking that. However what you need to see is that if ddd gets hit with an aether offstage, hes basically dead.

where as ddd has to space a crap ton of bairs and f tilt from the stage to actually take the stock from a recovering ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

a lot of people dont know a lot about ike so i cant blame you for thinking that. However what you need to see is that if ddd gets hit with an aether offstage, hes basically dead.

where as ddd has to space a crap ton of bairs and f tilt from the stage to actually take the stock from a recovering ike.

This. Add in the fact D3 is MUCH slower in the air, and has slightly less range (both overall and disjointedly), and a good Ike WILL be tacking on damage to a D3 that went anywhere half-decent off stage. Like wise, D3 should be adding damage to Ike, but he can't do so as aggressively unless he wants to risk getting sucked in by aether. If he does, he should be dead.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5YiB_BUw78 a year old, so not many Bthrow -> dash attack, but not a bad example of Ike vs D3, particularly during the first stock. Second stock is what happens if Ike messes up badly.

EDIT2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fleuA7eT-c8 same set I'm assuming

 

[Delta-cod]

I don't think I'd take someones word on MK being -3 when that very same person also thinks Marth Vs Yoshi is Even.

I'm pretty sure that I'm the expert on the Marth MU in our character's community. It's probably my most practiced MU outside of MK (lolol), and a lot of people are simply bad at the MU. Plenty of the Yoshi mains don't understand how to play the mid range RPS/Spacing game, so they get rocked by Marth. I used to! But then I learned and now I have a ridiculously positive record vs Marth in tournament, and I'm confident I'm the best Yoshi at RPS.

We dont have a shield.

We don't need it against Marth, lol.

 

[BSP]

@grim

MK vs luigi is worse than 2.5. It's basically unwinnable for luigi

@maharbra


Luigi doesn't beat sonic either. Sonic does not have to approach unless he's significantly behind, and if he gets the lead, luigi can't catch him, ever. Only reason it isn't sonic's favor IMO is because luigi kills much earlier and hits harder on each hit.

 

[Doc King]

lol, aether isnt a problem for D3. All D3 has to do to punish Ikes recovering move is just use ftilt at the right time. D3 can even get an fsmash punish out of it, which i've done a couple of times before.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

1) Aether is a problem. Get hit by the spike, D3 is most likely dead unless it's really low %s. Gotta be pretty bad to think otherwise.

2) If you charge Fsmash, or even really try to use Fsmash period against Ike, we can use Counter against it on reaction/time it if you're charging it so that you're stuck hitting the counter frames. I've done this personally, and KO'd the D3 off of the far side of the stage. Don't do it. You'll die.

3) On many stages, if you try to Ftilt us, we can reach you with aether, then just slide up the slope. It is your best option though, and should take on some damage. It won't keep off of stage forever though, as it pops us upwards, which in turn gives us more options for getting back onstage.

It's Ike's worst MU without MK around...but not nearly as bad.

 

[Doc King]

1) Aether is a problem. Get hit by the spike, D3 is most likely dead unless it's really low %s. Gotta be pretty bad to think otherwise.

2) If you charge Fsmash, or even really try to use Fsmash period against Ike, we can use Counter against it on reaction/time it if you're charging it so that you're stuck hitting the counter frames. I've done this personally, and KO'd the D3 off of the far side of the stage. Don't do it. You'll die.

3) On many stages, if you try to Ftilt us, we can reach you with aether, then just slide up the slope. It is your best option though, and should take on some damage. It won't keep off of stage forever though, as it pops us upwards, which in turn gives us more options for getting back onstage.

It's Ike's worst MU without MK around...but not nearly as bad.

1) Spikes can hurt D3 I do agree with. However, if D3 spaces his ftilts good, Aether won't be much of a problem. Just gotta use simple spacing.

2) I meant if you're using aether. When you use aether, D3 can pull off a fsmash punish on the aether.

3) Lol! u guys were just complaining how d throw to up smash on Peach on slopes didn't matter and how slopes don't matter. And now you guys are saying how slopes matter for D3's ftilt. That was strawmanning my friend.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

1) Spikes can hurt D3 I do agree with. However, if D3 spaces his ftilts good, Aether won't be much of a problem. Just gotta use simple spacing.

2) I meant if you're using aether. When you use aether, D3 can pull off a fsmash punish on the aether.

3) Lol! u guys were just complaining how d throw to up smash on Peach on slopes didn't matter and how slopes don't matter. And now you guys are saying how slopes matter for D3's ftilt. That was strawmanning my friend.

3) Er, no. That wasn't me. Learn2checkpostsbro. Also: slopes beneath the stage =/= slopes on the stage. Two COMPLETELY different things.

1) Not on the stages with slopes underneath them, like BF. If you can hit us off stage with Ftilt, we can aether you, no matter how well you space.

2) Aether can be low enough and still grab the stage that Fsmash shouldn't be able to hit, though it's basically pixal perfect so it may be technically possible, but much more likely to just get yourself hit. Also again: understage slopes screws that up beyond belief, unless you're doing it on reaction, in which case you can't close the gap from out of aether range to fsmash range quick enough.

Heck, I bet on every stage if you're in Fsmash range before we aether, we can at least nick you with the blade mid-Fsmash to stop it and still recover. And if you wait until after we aether to Fsmash, you're still either going to get nicked by it, or you've waited too late.

 

[da K.I.D.]

doc, more importantly if D3 is the one trying to recover, aether takes a massive dump on his recovery.

 

[san.]

Aether camping helped me 3 stock one of the best DDDs. It's definitely trouble for him. Good thing there are a couple of stages which prevents Ike from doing that too effectively.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

doc, more importantly if D3 is the one trying to recover, aether takes a massive dump on his recovery.

*nods*

It eats airdodges fairly easily, and moves nearly as fast horizontally as D3. >_>

 

[Doc King]

I don't think that aether is too great on King Dedede. I don't fight many Ikes, but as far as I know, aether does seem punishable, especially if you're spamming it so predictably.

 

[da K.I.D.]

oh my god, youre being stupid.

let me spell this out for you.

if you spotdodge at the wrong time, you are getting hit with a jab.

if you get hit with the jab, the grab is guaranteed.

when you get grabbed, you are going to get back throw, dash attacked offstage.

when you are OFFSTAGE, Ikes aether will MAUL your recovery, because if you are using up your jumps WITH NO GROUND BENEATH YOU, you cant get past ikes aether. you cant air dodge past it because ddd is too slow in the air and you cant typically space a bair to beat it, since YOU ARE OFFSTAGE TRYING TO RECOVER, and ike has control over the spacing at that point.

once you get hit by aether, you get spiked far below the stage to the point where up b is your only option to get back, which sets ike up to either hit you with bair from the ledge, up air from the ledge, or jumping on stage to punish with up smash or something equally powerful.

this entire sequence can happen anywhere between 30 and like 100 percent.

that is why aether is good against ddd, because he can use it in positions that cant be countered by the ddd, and puts him in a horrible position.

 

[Doc King]

oh my god, youre being stupid.

let me spell this out for you.

if you spotdodge at the wrong time, you are getting hit with a jab.

if you get hit with the jab, the grab is guaranteed.

when you get grabbed, you are going to get back throw, dash attacked offstage.

when you are OFFSTAGE, Ikes aether will MAUL your recovery, because if you are using up your jumps WITH NO GROUND BENEATH YOU, you cant get past ikes aether. you cant air dodge past it because ddd is too slow in the air and you cant typically space a bair to beat it, since YOU ARE OFFSTAGE TRYING TO RECOVER, and ike has control over the spacing at that point.

once you get hit by aether, you get spiked far below the stage to the point where up b is your only option to get back, which sets ike up to either hit you with bair from the ledge, up air from the ledge, or jumping on stage to punish with up smash or something equally powerful.

this entire sequence can happen anywhere between 30 and like 100 percent.

that is why aether is good against ddd, because he can use it in positions that cant be countered by the ddd, and puts him in a horrible position.

I'm not being dumb, I just didn't know what u guys were talking about. Not knowing about one thing don't make u a *******. Just means that you didn't know something.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Doc King, do you really think that PT vs. Dedede is basically unwinnable for PT?

 

[Doc King]

Doc King, do you really think that PT vs. Dedede is basically unwinnable for PT?

Yeah. I mean Ivysaur and Charizard get completely screwed over by D3 and Squirtle doesn't do too well against D3. D3 can just beat Squirtle and then if he's on high percents, he can just commit suicide on the 1st stock so PT can't switch without being heavily punished by D3's f smash.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'm not being dumb, I just didn't know what u guys were talking about. Not knowing about one thing don't make u a *******. Just means that you didn't know something.

really? you didnt know that I was refering to ddd offstage and ike trying to gimp him?

a lot of people dont know a lot about ike so i cant blame you for thinking that. However what you need to see is that if ddd gets hit with an aether offstage, hes basically dead.

This. Add in the fact D3 is MUCH slower in the air, and has slightly less range (both overall and disjointedly), and a good Ike WILL be tacking on damage to a D3 that went anywhere half-decent off stage. Like wise, D3 should be adding damage to Ike, but he can't do so as aggressively unless he wants to risk getting sucked in by aether. If he does, he should be dead.

doc, more importantly if D3 is the one trying to recover, aether takes a massive dump on his recovery.

*nods*

It eats airdodges fairly easily, and moves nearly as fast horizontally as D3. >_>

Really? and you respond with

I don't think that aether is too great on King Dedede. I don't fight many Ikes, but as far as I know, aether does seem punishable, especially if you're spamming it so predictably.

you were either being stupid or ignorant. maybe both. since it was very clear what the topic was. at least the one that i was talking about.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ivysaur and Charizard both do alright with platforms (Ivysaur gets a nice aerial wall and Charizard gets super-safe Flamethrower). They have the range to keep Dedede from getting in, they both edgeguard him well, and they both can do a lot of damage within a few hits. Ivysaur can't do much damage without putting herself at great risk, though, and Dedede lives much longer, obviously. Also, if you think taking a stock from Ivysaur is as simple as getting a grab, I can tell you now that you're wrong. Dedede gimps Ivysaur with a hard read at the edge, but not much else. Ivysaur B-Air outranges all of Dedede's edgeguarding methods, and you have to guess exactly when Ivysaur will use her double-jump in order to prevent her from getting to the ledge.

Squirtle ends up doing okay against Dedede. He's sort of like Wario, except his ground game allows him to compete on the ground with more than grab. Squirtle can camp Dedede quite hard with shellshift stuff, too. I'd say -1 Squirtle, -1 Charizard, -2 Ivysaur (on, like, not-Final Destination), and I'd average it as a -2.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Er, technically KID, Jab -> Grab isn't [/i]guaranteed[/i] in every situation. Just about, but not quite. And if D3 FF ADs he can get past Aether some of the time. But yes, it puts D3 in a terrible position to be in, and he's going to be taking damage for it.

And ya Doc, your reading comprehension kinda sucks.