Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Orion*]

He can't just casually throw out lazers like that.

What.... LMAO

Celes said he has the CG down.

Cool

Falco drops like a rock when we GR him offstage. There's a small guessing game where he has to pick from a small pool of recovery options, which are immediately DJ and recover or wait to DJ and recover. He also has to choose whether or not to AD during his DJ. If we pick an option that hits him, he pretty much dies as he has no DJ and has a pretty linear recovery without it.

You overrate your own gimping tools. It's much less than 1/4th of a chance/guess/read that falco actually dies. Properly timing your jump and abusing the first third of phantasm being invincible usually results in a non death even if read:/

Falco ***** Yoshi.

This

Your opinion is poorly formed. On what basis is it a -3? The same level as MK?

They are of the same level of gayness, your character sucks vs both

Falco isn't too difficult to be a -2. We have a CG that puts him into prime gimping position, survivability, and we're not too slow to get around his camp game. Granted, his camp game is strong against us due to a lack of shield, but it's not like it's impossible. And when we get in, we can do work.

I could apply this argument except like 10 times better to DDD and the MU is still awful

If Falco really had +3 on Yoshi then several of his current +3s would need to be changed to +4s.

Falco beats Samus, Falcon, etc significantly more than he beats Yoshi.

I can agree with falcon. Samus has some weird//gimmicky followups, but then again I honestly don't know the MU as well as I know Yoshi

how can yoshi even gimp a Lucario that's paying attention? >_>

I have yet to see it..

I'd agree with this, although I think falco does just as well vs yoshi as vs samus.

Pretty much my thoughts

I disagree, Yoshi has a reliable way to get Falco offstage and is better at juggling him than Samus. And he's fast enough to actually approach when compared to Samus.

I would rather be jggled/get followed up by Yoshi than by Samus. She actually has good followups/combos she just can never actually kill you LMAO.

The only thing that EVER is scary about yoshi is the CG and only because I'm more worried about ****ing up than what yoshi is going to do >_>

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think Fox goes even with MK. He has a much better win ratio against MK than any other character does in the last 2 years.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're also a silly, silly person that can't see that Meta Knight has an advantage in both range and options against Fox.

 

[Pikabunz]

But Fox has upsmash.

 

[Ghostbone]

lol
U-smash is so telegraphed it's not funny.

Just don't nado unsafely >.>

 

[Orion*]

I think Fox goes even with MK. He has a much better win ratio against MK than any other character does in the last 2 years.

It's not even. It's probably like... 6:4 overall. 55/45 on neutrals is believable, but when you factor in CPs it can get rough.
Fox get's gimped a LOT easier than falco as well (although he get's put in the position to less because shine is gay)

lol
U-smash is so telegraphed it's not funny.

Just don't nado unsafely >.>

na chill. that move w/ foxs dash speed is broken. every time fox grabs you, you're taking mad damage before you catch him again because of lasers unless you do something unsafe... which get's you usmashed LMAO

 

[Pikabunz]

Fox probably does just as good as Pikachu in the MK mu if not better.

 

[8Bitman]

Wow some of the MU's are just dumb.... There is no way R.O.B goes even with Diddy, that is at least a -1 for R.O.B. For Marth that MU is at least a -1 as well. And for I.C's you're just dumb with R.O.B if you lose to I.C... That is a +1 or even a +2...


Ehh w/e Idc, this is largely biased anyway, I know what I am talking about...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think fox only loses to MK on Brinstar. I have seen DEHF take it to last hit against Tyrant on RC

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I like using Fox on Brinstar.

Also, it wasn't until I started using him that I realized how bad his ground game is. It's...bad. Like, really bad. He can KO, but outside of that and a decent grab, he blows up close.

 

[Nefarious B]

His jab leaves a lot to be desired His grab range is pretty meh too, but at least his walk and dash speed help him get in on walls easier to actually use the grab

 

[Doc King]

I think Fox goes even with MK. He has a much better win ratio against MK than any other character does in the last 2 years.

Not really. Fox gets gimped pretty bad by meta knight.

I think fox only loses to MK on Brinstar. I have seen DEHF take it to last hit against Tyrant on RC

I think Brinstar is a not bad cp for Fox to pick on against mk because he can kill mk easily there and he wouldn't get gimped as much.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

but he dies at the side blastzones at like 5%(exaggeration clearly) due to shuttle loop soo

 

[Grim Tuesday]

's +1 match-ups in order from hardest to easiest:

1. 
2. 
3. 
4. 
5. 
6. 
7. 
8. 
9. 

could fit in there somewhere, but everyone would disagree with me, so I'll leave him out for now.

NONE of those characters go even with Meta Knight. NO characters go even with Meta Knight. He beats everyone +2 on his counter-picks. He STILL has a +1 advantage against everyone on Final Destination (though some +1s are closer to even and some +2s become +1s). Does everyone in this thread get it?

 

[Shaya]

meta knight definitely does better against squirtle than marth.

I play against the only good PT player in the entire universe except where reflex lives. MK demolishes squirtle if he just stalls for 2 minutes first (and guess what? squirtle has no approach on mk).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Iunno, it got kind of sketchy near the end, but the general order is still right imo.

And Squirtle was kind of a joke, cause he is held down by Char/Ivy, he doesn't matter

 

[Ghostbone]

I disagree with Snake not being the hardest.

However hard MK beats Snake, he beats other characters worse imo.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Snake was hard to place, Fox and Diddy both do better in theory, but Snake just seems to win somehow lol.

 

[Pikabunz]

I think Sonic and IC's do well against MK too. They have a better record against MKs than Wolf and maybe others on that list. Yoshi does alright too.

 

[-LzR-]

I believe that is more of a case of outplaying than having a decent MU.

 

[Ghostbone]

IC get beaten pretty badly with MK if he plays correctly, he just separates them so easily and ***** Nana.

Sonic idk, I've never played a good Sonic, he seems to do ok against MK, just not as well as any of the top/high tier characters do.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

All of those characters are -2.

 

[DeLux]

To be honest, it's very hard to rate IC's vs. anyone because their matchups are so stage dependent. So much so that I'd argue their matchup ratios would change in a 3 game set compared to a 5 game set.

For example, over a 3 game set, ICs vs. MK is probably a -2. Over a 5 game set, it's -1. It hinges on the fact that the first tier of CP's are unwinnable against MK and the next tier of CP's (delfino, halberd, and frigate) are very winnable.


I'm not sure if any other character experiences that same phenomenon to a degree as the IC's do.

 

[Pikabunz]

I dunno. At Genesis, ES@M was doing a lot better vs MK's with his IC's than his Pika.

 

[Gardex]

Even 3 stocked him on FD.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Doing good with a character doesn't make a match-up good, you have to look at the characters themselves.

Maybe Esam is just REALLY good at the match-up.

 

[-LzR-]

IC are really weird in character based matchups. The characters shouldn't get grabbed and IC shouldn't drop their grabs either. IC are so confusing :S

 

[Pikabunz]

Why can't we rate mu's based on what a character has actually done? I think results should at least matter a little bit. Pikachu shouldn't be even with MK especially when characters like Snake and Olimar do just as good/better results wise.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

uh my guess is because unless it's a vs MK MU it would be kinda hard to do that for every single MU. Like how many times will you see a Link vs PT to observe the actual MU

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why can't we rate mu's based on what a character has actually done? I think results should at least matter a little bit. Pikachu shouldn't be even with MK especially when characters like Snake and Olimar do just as good/better results wise.

Because it's inaccurate. Player skill gets in the way.

Armada, the best Peach in the world, recently beat Mango, the best Fox in the world, in Melee. Peach still loses against Fox and anyone who says otherwise would be laughed at, but with what you are proposing, Peach would suddenly have an advantage against Fox that she doesn't actually have.

And even in theory, Pikachu shouldn't go even with Meta Knight. No one should, that's the point I'm trying to make.

 

[Pikabunz]

One time things shouldn't matter. When results are more consistent with different players is when it should.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

WTF @Fox' ground game being bad <_<

 

[Ghostbone]

Because it's inaccurate. Player skill gets in the way.

Armada, the best Peach in the world, recently beat Mango, the best Fox in the world, in Melee. Peach still loses against Fox and anyone who says otherwise would be laughed at, but with what you are proposing, Peach would suddenly have an advantage against Fox that she doesn't actually have.

And even in theory, Pikachu shouldn't go even with Meta Knight. No one should, that's the point I'm trying to make.

Nobody agrees with me that Peach beats Fox in Melee >.>
/sigh

 

[TheReflexWonder]

uh my guess is because unless it's a vs MK MU it would be kinda hard to do that for every single MU. Like how many times will you see a Link vs PT to observe the actual MU

I did the matchup against KirinBlaze at MLG Raleigh.

meta knight definitely does better against squirtle than marth.

I play against the only good PT player in the entire universe except where reflex lives. MK demolishes squirtle if he just stalls for 2 minutes first (and guess what? squirtle has no approach on mk).

It's bad, but I feel like the matchup has gotten -slightly- better for Squirtle in recent times. Shellshift creating a neutral animation makes for a useful 50/50 situation that most people don't have against him.

It's still +2, Meta Knight's favor, I think. Charizard does marginally better, but that's still a +2, as well.

 

[Shaya]

The shell shifting stuff seems to be so so against walk spacing dtilts/ftilts... while sliding ftilts, shields and grabs are cool and all - shell shifting is good theoretically in the neutral situation.. but when squirtle's vying for time or MK has a lead that 50/50 stacks a lot negatively. I'm still not sure how Squirtle handles MK zoning near a ledge considering he gets nearly nothing by knocking him off stage or to the ledge at all ;_;.

I see the point you can bring up where that 50/50 used properly is a strong means of squirtle handling the match up... I just don't think Squirtle can ever get that neutral situation to abuse it in the first place ;\

Squirtle with a lead is a whole different ball game though.

 

[OverLade]

WTF @Fox' ground game being bad <_<

His ground game actually is bad, he only has good options because he falls quickly. In this sense, Fox really approaches more like Wario than a character with good ground game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox doesn't ever actually approach at all.

But his walking speed, his dashing speed and his options out of either amount to a powerful grounded punishing and anti-aerial game. Just because you can't approach with a grounded move doesn't mean your ground game is bad. None of Marth's ground moves really makes a good approach but he still has quite solid a ground game overall.

Wario's ground game is "bad" not because he has no grounded approach but because he has no good punishing options against defensive maneuvers or landings from the ground.

 

[BlueXenon]

I think Zelda has a -1 match up with sonic.

 

[-LzR-]

I think Zelda has a -1 match up with sonic.

Me neither, zelda can infinite sonic with dtilt.

 

[BlueXenon]

Also, Sonics add up damage using side B, but Zelda can stop it.