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Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

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phi1ny3

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Razer make Lucario cry. A11y's good and all, but when snake realizes how much silliness he can get away with on Lucario, it's tough. Imo it's still playable, but Snake has to mess up way less, and when you see Trela make even reasonable but incorrect guesses in recorded matches, Razer goes to town and 2-stocks him half the time rofl.

The good thing is that Lucario is a pretty good juggler in the MU, all of his aerials frame trap dodges nicely, as do his primary killing attacks (fsmash, AS).
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Well if you mean recently it's Trela vs Ally/Razer...and he did beat Razer in a set recently. I still feel like, he's his worst MU but it's plenty doable.

At least this is how I feel like it is.
 

phi1ny3

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Oh yeah, and you can't really CP snake as lucario really well, Snake's got at least 3 solid stages on even more conservative rulesets, Lucario, not so much, Snake tends to do pretty well on Lucario's CPs as well.

Personally I think part of this is coming from my inability to play against snake as Lucario, I have the hardest time w/ punishing/avoiding rudementary snake stuff. But I look at those matches, and say that whenever Trela beats Razer, he gets pretty lucky/good reads. Now if he were to take out Razer again in tournament, that might throw a wrench in my theory about the MU.
 

John12346

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Well, the -1 came from the fact that we do have some things on Snake, to the point that we can make the matchup not ******** like Snake vs. a lot of other characters is.

I'm told by a lot of other tourneygoers that I have a stupidly large excess of patience when I'm playing, so I'm gonna go off a limb here and say you need to be really patient for this match. Staying in your shield, while keeping a "don't get grabbed" mentality can work wonders in this matchup.

We CAN reasonably camp Snake if we know what we're doing. With our stupid-*** rolls and overall general floatiness, the most we should be getting hit by are the grenades themselves, not the explosions. Staying airborne can work wonders on Snake's camp game, and if he approaches, what's he gonna do to you from below? Uair? :awesome:

Some of your are probably gonna ask, "OMG BUT HOW DUZ LUCRIO LNAD!?!??!?" Here's a fun fact. Snake's Ftilt moves Snake forward slightly, and there's no hitbox inside Snake's body... so land inside Snake, like, literally so you're overlapping him, and spotdodge right away. Ftilt can't hit from that position, so the most Snake can do from here is dash away for a pivot grab, and you should have enough time to react to that.

Lucario also has the option to land on Snake's shield with ASC. Snake doesn't have much of an anti air outside of Utilt, and even then, it's awkward to use while he has his shield up. So, in essence, Snake doesn't have much of a response to it either. He either has to drop his shield and get hit(combo'ing into Utilt or Grab for free) or roll away, which is obviously a reset which enabled you to land. Problem solved.

When we consider characters who rely on getting fast punishes off on opponents who hit their shields with an attack, rapid hitting moves such as infinite jabs can really be a saving grace in that particular matchup. Now, Lucario is the only character in the game who is capable of starting a rapid in midair; ASC to be precise, and even though it has really low disjoint, Snake doesn't have anything to stop an approach from a 45 degree angle. So in essence, this is actually a very reliable approach.

Oh, and Fsmash is cool I guess. It's safe on his shield as long as you don't get powershielded obviously, and it can also blow up his nades without hurting you, so that'll add an extra level of protection in case he actually does powershield your Fsmash. And of course, I don't need to mention how helpful it is in catching characters with a poor ability to land, so go nuts with Fsmash, I guess.

The matchup is basically "be patient, keep your shield up, don't get grabbed, and ASC *****(?)" You'll notice all of that doesn't actually kill Snake, and considering he does have massive disjoint, range, speed, and power on us, he clearly doesn't have to put in much work, especially since he can punish with ease if mistakes are made on our part when the time comes to kill Snake.

Anyway, Lucario has the tools to deal with Snake, but Snake obviously has it easier on his end. So... slight disadvantage. This matchup isn't as ******** as MK.
 

Steam

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I've always thought snake was closer to a -3 than a -1... probably Lucario's worst matchup... D3 is close but D3's shenanigans can be worked around. Snake just kinda wins everywhere. and all snake has to do to **** any ASC approach is pull a grenade and shield :/

also IMO

:lucario:
-2: :metaknight: :snake: :dedede: :fox:
-1: :diddy: :marth: :wario: :olimar:
0: :falco: :popo: :gw: :zerosuitsamus: :pit: :dk2: :wolf: :rob:
1: :kirby2: :toonlink: :mario2: :peach: :luigi2: :ike: :ness2: :lucas:
2: :pikachu2: :sheilda: :sheik: :pt: :bowser2: :falcon: :samus2: :link2: :jigglypuff:
3: :sonic: :yoshi2: :zelda: :ganondorf:
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I still don't understand why they gave marth the +1 anyways when they never replied to our counter-arguments... especially Marc said we'd probably get the 0..
No worries, I don't think -1 is out of the question for Marth even for my own and others personal views. We did say 0, but they needed to make a decision, so they did. It's fine.

Analyzing vids of it at high levels of play and a little personal play makes me think it is even. But then again it's my word so take it with a grain of salt.
 

Flayl

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Well KingKong is going to KTAR so that's your best bet? I'd be highly surprised if you lost to him though...
 

Shaya

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I agree with myself. Marth is 0.
He has no advantage over ZSS.
Didn't you recently state in your topic that

Marth on ground > ZSS air
Marth in air = but still outranges/disjoints ZSS in the air.
Marth ground > ZSS ground?
And ZSS ground has good things against Marth in the air but it isn't a distinct advantage to either.

Where's that advantage bro? ^_^

Even though the main lolzyness of the match up pretty much comes from Marth ****ing up his spacing and getting hit by a dtilt or rising up air.
 

Seagull Joe

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Wolf is even with eryone almost lmao.

I agree with Zss vs Wolf being even. It's sucha weird matchup sometimes.
 

NickRiddle

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Nick you think diddy v zss is even like that chart earlier says?

:phone:
...Dunno about that one...
Diddy might win, but gnes overwhelms me so much that I don't know if it's my inexperience vs. the character, if he's much better than me, or if the MU is terrible...
 

NickRiddle

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I think diddy wins, by a good margin. You did good vs wyatt nick, I think the things I do differently caught you off guard.
We need to just... play for a while. :(
I'm not Seibrik, so I won't learn you that well, but I just... want to comprehend...
 

Tagxy

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Since its been brought up again, pikachus MU with marth is becoming more arguably even.

Theres also a growing sense that while lucario is still bad, hes not quite as bad as previously thought. More around GW level +1. Hes also just not near as gay as Olimar.
 

Tagxy

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Theres a slight disagreement. Anther, L_Cancel, and Anuar have felt the MU isnt that bad. But overall many agree its pikas worst. Olimar kills vertically super early, pikachu cant spot dodge or shield much, jolts are fairly useless. Hes constantly staling his nair to get pikmin off. Pikmin generally forces approaches better than pikachu can. Pivot grab destroys almost all of pikachus approaches. You cant even bait really without punishment. Among other things.

His speed does help him out and along with other things prevents him from being completely owned.
 

phi1ny3

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I've been thinking this for a long while, although I still can see Lucario being +2, Olimar is imo worse (still winnable, but it's ugly for pikachu). It's really lulzy when Olimar has a ton of yellow/purples and it's like Pika can't get the yellows off often w/o staling nair lol
 
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