Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
ZSS' ground game doesn't suck when there are items in play, especially bananas that combo into her stuns. Plus, she has a really easy dsmash banana loop on him that is NOT some situational garbage, it is easy-ish to land, Dakpo did it on both ADHD and Gnes at WHOBO 3, and also an a MM against RH's Diddy secondary lol:How does a character with a non-existent ground game go even with Diddy? ZSS doesn't have that powerful an aerial game.
Much wisdom from the guy who plays neither character and presumably doesn't know much about themWith that said, I'd still have the MU as 55:45 or 6:4 Diddy favor.
Most beautiful words ive ever seen someone say about Link.I've thought about Link as one of the better LT characters for a long time now. He can cover a good amount of approach options and unlike Samus he can deal some nice damage with his keep-away game as well [zair -> DA, fair, bomb -> anything deals 15%+]. Despite having no useful grab, his close range game is fairly decent thanks to a good jab.
He also has legitimate kill set-ups and can kill at 120ish %. A bad recovery alone doesn't negate all these positive aspects. Otherwise Ness would be rock-bottom.
I think Link is better than Samus, Falcon, Bowser and maybe even Mario. Yoshi is the only Low Tier character I'd agree to be better than Link without hesitating.
I agree with this except I think Marth is -1, his gimp game is a legitimate threat and his zoning and shield pressure are both very hard to beat. If Marth is playing well you have to make hard reads just to gain any momentumSome opinions for ZSS:
Diddy Kong: I think this is even, although I can see an argument for -1 so I won't make a big deal out of it. I just wanted to say it.
Falco: This is a **** match-up. I don't know why it is listed as -2. This is -3. Falco can CG ZSS, making him one of three characters that can, and he is probably the only one where it is a real threat. (Pikachu and Donkey Kong also have CGs, but DK's is lol and Pikachu's isn't a huge deal). Falco also has hitboxes that exist in zones ZSS has a difficult time operating in and challenges her mid-range and close-range games with outright superior options. She should really never win this match.
Marth: This is pretty even. Marth and ZSS mains alike feel it is even. I don't know how this became -1 on the MU chart. lol
Wario: Same as above, except DMG thinks ZSS loses for some reason. What advantage does Wario have on ZSS anyway?
Game and Watch: +1. Really easy to keep Game and Watch out. Close range game is blatantly superior due to frame 1 jab beating all of gaw's options there. He kills ZSS really early so it isn't a total wash, but his kill moves are telegraphed and silly. Plus, sdi-uair. Aerials all beat all of gaw's aerials. Uair trades with gaw's dair, meaning he isn't as safe from juggling (zss wins when it trades).
Kirby: +2 easily lol
Fox: -1. This has been talked about over and over again, but Fox is super annoying and I don't think there's a ZSS main alive that feels this match-up isn't in Fox's favor. How did 0 even happen?
Then Mario????? no way. Mario is the freaking God of Low tiers. Mario has sooo many more tools than any other Low tier (bar yoshi I agree with you there). Mario has alot of pros that are non existent in other low tiers such as realtively good frame data, and some decent priority on a hand full of moves. Not to mention some pretty stellar smashes, and a beastly projectile. Obviously ness and lucas have some similar qualities but they just get straight up gayed.I've thought about Link as one of the better LT characters for a long time now. He can cover a good amount of approach options and unlike Samus he can deal some nice damage with his keep-away game as well [zair -> DA, fair, bomb -> anything deals 15%+]. Despite having no useful grab, his close range game is fairly decent thanks to a good jab.
He also has legitimate kill set-ups and can kill at 120ish %. A bad recovery alone doesn't negate all these positive aspects. Otherwise Ness would be rock-bottom.
I think Link is better than Samus, Falcon, Bowser and maybe even Mario. Yoshi is the only Low Tier character I'd agree to be better than Link without hesitating.
Fireballs are really good when you have your opponent at a specific distance.Mario's projectile isn't good - a grounded fireball can cover some aerial approaches and has its follow ups. But it's not a "beastly" projectile by any means ... once the opponent is starting to powershield it - and it's stupidly easy to powershield - it loses almost all of its use.
His frame data can only do so much ... it's possibly the only thing that's truly "good" about Mario in any situation [other things that Mario are good at are very situational such as platform pressure] but even then you kind of have to get yourself in a position to make good use of it. Do you think it's easy to get in a position to land one of his quick moves like jab? The risk / reward is really poor for that anyway [getting really close to the opponent for 9% // ironically it's one of Mario's best moves] and Mario is really weak in general in the neutral position ... he has no stellar smashes lol. They are good in certain situations ... and that's it.
The lack of disjoint, 3 frame longer cooldown, and 4 frame longer 2nd hitbox appearance?D-Smash comes out on the same frame as Meta Knight's D-Smash, and the hitbox is about the same. What's not to like? >_>
MK's dsmash has a lot more range - it outranges a lot of Marth's ground moves, Mario's dsmash doesn't come close to it. MK dsmash is safer on shield or whiff, has more range and a lot more KO power [especially the 2ns hit].D-Smash comes out on the same frame as Meta Knight's D-Smash, and the hitbox is about the same. What's not to like? >_>
Mario's D-Smash has nice priority, regardless. As for the slightly longer cooldown period, we're assuming that you're aiming to -hit- with it, rather than throwing it out and hoping for the best.The lack of disjoint, 3 frame longer cooldown, and 4 frame longer 2nd hitbox appearance?
Even if you're assuming you'll hit with it, odds are you're doing it to punish a spotdodge or something similar, where those extra 3 frames may make a difference if you do miraculously miss. Either way, it's nitpicking and I don't want to argue with you about it.Mario's D-Smash has nice priority, regardless. As for the slightly longer cooldown period, we're assuming that you're aiming to -hit- with it, rather than throwing it out and hoping for the best.
As for the second hitbox, I'll grant that you can't get the powerful second swing of Meta Knight's D-Smash, but as far as "covering your ***," it doesn't make much of a difference overall if you're trying to hit with the first hit, anyway.
I never said that it's just as good as Meta Knight's D-Smash, but, the similar traits do say a lot of good about it.
LOL.The lack of disjoint, 3 frame longer cooldown, and 4 frame longer 2nd hitbox appearance?
Two thousand and eleven is the year we are in.Mario is a fine low tier. He suffers from being average in every way, but isn't really bad except for recovery
Both of those characters are low tierand weegee kills earlier, has cyclone, dat jab>*insert move*. not to mention he actually does have a recovery. mario and luigi are worlds apart and so is how they are played, lmao at whoever said earlier that they are played the same. my best friend blaze mains weegee and our other buddy mains mario and they would laugh their ***** off is they read that