z00ted
The Assault of Laughter ﷼
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Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
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MK26
Smash Master
Orion*
Smash Researcher
no i didnt lose.... >_>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_dx3jOyFKA
checking skin now lol
edit: nope cant change it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_dx3jOyFKA
checking skin now lol
edit: nope cant change it
Are you aware that you're asking the impossible of him? The question is what has *any* Link achieved out of LT tourneys recently? The only thing I've heard is KirinBlaze beating Chibo, which seems to be an outlier as I haven't heard about anything else.
If that's good enough for you he did really well vs Orion's MK on Brinstar [would've been closer without that Gimp / SD]:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XigYE17DNAY
He also has really good wins within LT tourneys: vs Quiksilver's Samus, Ravenlord's Lucas, Leon's Ike, Lp's Ness; Probably doesn't mean much to an american but should give you an idea that he's not just good with Link because he's a smart player.
I would say that in this case the burden of proof is on you but I probably wouldn't agree with your argument anyway. I think Link has a decent anti-aerial and keep away game - Yoshi can't really approach on the ground through zair so I see Yoshi approach mainly via the air, where Link can deal more damage ... zair, fair, utilt and bomb cover most of Yoshi's aerial approaches and either deal good damage or lead directly into another move.What I want to know from you is why Yoshi doesn't have a +2 over Link.
If it in Yoshi's favor I really don't think it's more than +1.
When has Link ever been able to keep people out with Z-Air...?
Poltergust
Smash Master
^True, but even so Link's z-air is still not too effective considering how he drops like a rock while in the air. Samus' and Toon Link's z-airs are much tougher to deal with because they are floaty, so the z-airs last longer. Link is barely able to get the second hit of his z-air out with a short-hop. which makes his z-air more limited.
Link has two enormous obstacles to overcome in this match-up (which is why it's a bad match-up for him): Heavy-character syndrome and the chain-grab.
Because Link is such a fast-faller (and is sort of heavy, too) he suffers from combos and strings at any reasonable percent. If a b-air from Yoshi gets through Link can expect to take quite a lot of damage. This is compounded by the fact that Link is extremely vulnerable in the air, which makes him not too hard to juggle. And because of this, Yoshi can also punish his landings with a grab, which leads to a chain-grab.
The chain-grab is what really cripples Link in this match-up. Not only does it do more damage to him but his grab-release animation puts him so far off-stage that he's forced to use his double-jump to recover. This makes his recovery extremely easy to gimp if Yoshi gets a good read (and even if he doesn't he could still gimp him anyways because Link's recovery is that bad). All he needs is one d-air or n-air to gimp Link at basically any percent above 60%. It gets even worse if Link doesn't have his double-jump (for whatever reason), in which case it becomes impossible for him to recover.
Still, Link is no Bowser. It's not like he doesn't have an answer to any of Yoshi's moves, they just tend to not work out as well as other characters, and any mistake he makes can get punished heavily. Although, the fact that he actually has a decent camping game against Yoshi certainly helps his chances.
Like I said, z-air can work but it's not good enough to keep Yoshi away forever. Heck, I think Yoshi can simply run up and duck under the z-air with an up-smash. As far as aerial approaches go, his z-air tends to do better there, but other than that he's basically limited to the ground. F-air is terrible for anti-air (and Link sucks in the air in general) and u-tilt can be baited (although it's still a good move). Bombs don't work too well against an approaching Yoshi either; he's simply too fast and can even just DJC-Egg Lay through a bomb if needed. That said, Link's bombs are generally good to use against Yoshi, just not when he's so close to Link.I would say that in this case the burden of proof is on you but I probably wouldn't agree with your argument anyway. I think Link has a decent anti-aerial and keep away game - Yoshi can't really approach on the ground through zair so I see Yoshi approach mainly via the air, where Link can deal more damage ... zair, fair, utilt and bomb cover most of Yoshi's aerial approaches and either deal good damage or lead directly into another move.
If it in Yoshi's favor I really don't think it's more than +1.
Link has two enormous obstacles to overcome in this match-up (which is why it's a bad match-up for him): Heavy-character syndrome and the chain-grab.
Because Link is such a fast-faller (and is sort of heavy, too) he suffers from combos and strings at any reasonable percent. If a b-air from Yoshi gets through Link can expect to take quite a lot of damage. This is compounded by the fact that Link is extremely vulnerable in the air, which makes him not too hard to juggle. And because of this, Yoshi can also punish his landings with a grab, which leads to a chain-grab.
The chain-grab is what really cripples Link in this match-up. Not only does it do more damage to him but his grab-release animation puts him so far off-stage that he's forced to use his double-jump to recover. This makes his recovery extremely easy to gimp if Yoshi gets a good read (and even if he doesn't he could still gimp him anyways because Link's recovery is that bad). All he needs is one d-air or n-air to gimp Link at basically any percent above 60%. It gets even worse if Link doesn't have his double-jump (for whatever reason), in which case it becomes impossible for him to recover.
Still, Link is no Bowser. It's not like he doesn't have an answer to any of Yoshi's moves, they just tend to not work out as well as other characters, and any mistake he makes can get punished heavily. Although, the fact that he actually has a decent camping game against Yoshi certainly helps his chances.
link isnt really vulnerable in the air imo
good ff, AD canceled zair (although this works way better for TL), nair thats decent for landing, and a dair that scares the **** out of everyone. If he's higher up bombs make it more difficult as well.
good ff, AD canceled zair (although this works way better for TL), nair thats decent for landing, and a dair that scares the **** out of everyone. If he's higher up bombs make it more difficult as well.
Poltergust
Smash Master
The fast-falling is the problem, though. Unlike Fox or Dedede, he doesn't have any way to stall himself in the air to prevent from getting juggled. His aerials also lack the range and versatility to make him land safely most of the time (except z-air. By the way, d-air is easily avoided by simply not being directly under Link). Bombs do help him, though.
Why do people think fast falling makes it easier for opponents to juggle you? It's actually more difficult because you can get back down to the ground quicker.
In fact if your floaty and you don't have multiple jumps I would think you would have significant disadvantages compared to characters who fast fall.
The only times fast falling is bad imo is if it enables you to get CG'ed or locked.
In fact if your floaty and you don't have multiple jumps I would think you would have significant disadvantages compared to characters who fast fall.
The only times fast falling is bad imo is if it enables you to get CG'ed or locked.
Magical float powers are similar to being able to change up when/where you land.
Poltergust
Smash Master
Which is why characters like Mr. Game & Watch and Olimar are also easy to juggle. Floaty characters that don't have good ways to mix up their landings actually suffer worse from getting juggled since it's easier to react to them.
The problem with Link is that he's a fast-faller with bad aerial mobility and basically no way to mix up where/when he lands. At least King Dedede has multiple jumps and Fox has his down-B. Link doesn't have anything like that, which makes it easy to punish him when he lands.
To be fair, Link's N-Air covers a good amount of space, and footstool -> bomb pull is a decent option, too.
Fuujin
Smash Champion
Ganon/Zelda
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i love your avatar by the way.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
he can also wavebounce and b reversal and shiz. not to mention when he is wavebouncing his bow he can do that lagless arrow cancel thing too which leads into boomerang arrow lock.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Wow! I thought I was the only one. :\
Yeah, Link is sort of bad, not for any of the reasons people say he is. I hate when people talk about how bad Link's recovery is as though up+b is the only element of recovery in Smash.
I've thought about Link as one of the better LT characters for a long time now. He can cover a good amount of approach options and unlike Samus he can deal some nice damage with his keep-away game as well [zair -> DA, fair, bomb -> anything deals 15%+]. Despite having no useful grab, his close range game is fairly decent thanks to a good jab.
He also has legitimate kill set-ups and can kill at 120ish %. A bad recovery alone doesn't negate all these positive aspects. Otherwise Ness would be rock-bottom.
I think Link is better than Samus, Falcon, Bowser and maybe even Mario. Yoshi is the only Low Tier character I'd agree to be better than Link without hesitating.
He also has legitimate kill set-ups and can kill at 120ish %. A bad recovery alone doesn't negate all these positive aspects. Otherwise Ness would be rock-bottom.
I think Link is better than Samus, Falcon, Bowser and maybe even Mario. Yoshi is the only Low Tier character I'd agree to be better than Link without hesitating.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Agree@Gheb. Going up against a good Link player is much scarier than going up against say, a good Bowser or Mario.
I think Link's projectile game is underestimated, too. Bombs are good. He has the ability to force reactions with his projectiles that can be punished with bombs or zair, and he has good long-range pressure. His close-range game is pretty bad (ZSS I know can beat almost any of it by just getting close and using dtilt) but not unworkable, as once he lands a move he can usually get you out of his zone.
Link is an extremely horizontal character. He has good projectiles, a usable zoning game in fair and nair, etc. He is really good at covering the area directly in front him.
Link's problem is that vertically he is almost useless. His uair and dair are scary kill moves, but also really punishable and easy to bait. Bombs are good for dair kill set-ups but if you avoid Link while he is holding a bomb it nullfies that risk. Juggling Link and punishing his landings is quite easy, as well. I think Link with Marth's uair would be a much much better character.
Also, pressuring Link's shield is a really strong option at mid-range especially. He really suffers out of shield and charaters with strong pressure games are annoying there.
His recovery is not in and of itself a problem. Usually between his weight, boomerang and bomb traps, Link can make edgeguarding him risky enough that he can make it back to the stage. If his up+b makes it to the stage, the lingering hitbox makes timing the edgeguard difficult, too. Where recovery is concerned, his biggest problem is moves that send Link away from the stage at a horizontal angle like Wolf's down throw, ZSS' low-angled ftilt, and Fox's down smash. Also, many high tier characters can abuse this angle, which makes him an incidental victim of high level play. I don't think most characters have strong guaranteed ways to gimp Link, but unfortunately many good ones do.
I think Link's projectile game is underestimated, too. Bombs are good. He has the ability to force reactions with his projectiles that can be punished with bombs or zair, and he has good long-range pressure. His close-range game is pretty bad (ZSS I know can beat almost any of it by just getting close and using dtilt) but not unworkable, as once he lands a move he can usually get you out of his zone.
Link is an extremely horizontal character. He has good projectiles, a usable zoning game in fair and nair, etc. He is really good at covering the area directly in front him.
Link's problem is that vertically he is almost useless. His uair and dair are scary kill moves, but also really punishable and easy to bait. Bombs are good for dair kill set-ups but if you avoid Link while he is holding a bomb it nullfies that risk. Juggling Link and punishing his landings is quite easy, as well. I think Link with Marth's uair would be a much much better character.
Also, pressuring Link's shield is a really strong option at mid-range especially. He really suffers out of shield and charaters with strong pressure games are annoying there.
His recovery is not in and of itself a problem. Usually between his weight, boomerang and bomb traps, Link can make edgeguarding him risky enough that he can make it back to the stage. If his up+b makes it to the stage, the lingering hitbox makes timing the edgeguard difficult, too. Where recovery is concerned, his biggest problem is moves that send Link away from the stage at a horizontal angle like Wolf's down throw, ZSS' low-angled ftilt, and Fox's down smash. Also, many high tier characters can abuse this angle, which makes him an incidental victim of high level play. I don't think most characters have strong guaranteed ways to gimp Link, but unfortunately many good ones do.
Link's biggest problem is that he's boned in close-quarters combat. If anyone has a good jab or grab, Link really has his work cut out for him.
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
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For those kinds of moves, Link can usually DI down and airdodge>tether ASAP the ledge to cancel the knockback, since airdodge gets you out of hitstun really quickly.Where recovery is concerned, his biggest problem is moves that send Link away from the stage at a horizontal angle like Wolf's down throw, ZSS' low-angled ftilt, and Fox's down smash. Also, many high tier characters can abuse this angle, which makes him an incidental victim of high level play. I don't think most characters have strong guaranteed ways to gimp Link, but unfortunately many good ones do.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
He can do that when he can't tech the ground? Really?
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
^This. Link can work around his bad recovery since he has a great momentum cancelling move in bair (and dair vertically; lol 2nd fastest fast fall behind D3) and lives forever outside of getting gimped, as long as his DI is good. Projectiles and a tether help out too. But Link really suffers once an opponent with a good close-up game gets inside his comfort zone. His best response is usually to just try to escape, like with a nair OoS or something and reset the spacing.
Personally, I think he should be above Jiggs and at the very least tied with Falcon. Samus probably has a little more going for her than Link (although I can definitely see an argument for him being better than her and Bowser), but Link can put up a legit fight against a lot of higher tier characters (like Snake, Marth, and Wario), which is something a lot of lower tier characters can't claim.
Also, he has a guaranteed dair and jab lock setup if he throws a bomb on top of you and footstools you, and Link's powerful jab makes his jablock very damaging and potentially deadly since you can end it with, say, dair or half charged Spin attack.
EDIT:
Yes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w44CFL-1T7s&t=1m45s
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I disagree with some of his MU's on that spread tbh.
Unlike Lucario where I almost entirely agreed with it, I had a lot of quirks with Link's MUs.
Unlike Lucario where I almost entirely agreed with it, I had a lot of quirks with Link's MUs.
i feel like informing poltergust he needs to differentiate between the input fastfall and the character attribute fastfaller. One of them is great for avoiding juggles, guess which one.
i also feel like saying although links grab is slow, its by far faster than ZSS, although i dont know the frame data atm (zss was 16 iirc, i'd guess link's is 10 to 12)
and yes, the instant tether is good, but it wont work at high % (i hypothesize u need to be able to airdodge when still in tether range of the ledge) so any (of those) semispikes at fairly high % at the end should suffice.
i also feel like saying although links grab is slow, its by far faster than ZSS, although i dont know the frame data atm (zss was 16 iirc, i'd guess link's is 10 to 12)
and yes, the instant tether is good, but it wont work at high % (i hypothesize u need to be able to airdodge when still in tether range of the ledge) so any (of those) semispikes at fairly high % at the end should suffice.
doommachine15
Smash Ace
im sure I wont see your guys responses. but in my opinion I live right by Will(dk) aka broc kong. and hes beaten atomsk before how does DK have almost unlosable matchup to D3. lol
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
^double negative is double negative.
Also, depends on ruleset, if you have the standing infinite/small step, it's much worse, whereas if you're on the EC, where it's only the regular CG allowed, then it's only like 40:60 D3's favor.
Also, depends on ruleset, if you have the standing infinite/small step, it's much worse, whereas if you're on the EC, where it's only the regular CG allowed, then it's only like 40:60 D3's favor.
Slhoka
Smash Lord
I fixed the DK vs Sheik matchup in all the files. It should be fixed in the individual matchup list in the next few days.
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
Fastfalling is a blessing and a curse for Link; he gets more out of vertical momentum cancelling than any other character, can help him escape juggles, and can let him slip by people with how shockingly fast he drops, but it can somewhat limit his options offstage too because his recovery limits the opportinities to use his fastfall to avoid being intercepted.
Link's grab is 11 frames I'm pretty sure. It has terribad lag though (I think his pivot grab can theoretically be punished with a Warlock punch if Ganon spotdodges just right and buffers it) and takes longer for it to fully extend.
Whiplashing works until at least like 300%, which, if I make it to that high in the first place, that's fine, I'm perfectly happy surviving up to that point, haha. So realistically it will always work, as long as the Link has good enough reflexes.
And I agree with Ryu, a lot of Link's matchups are pretty wrong.
Fuujin
Smash Champion
You forgot to fix the rest of the chart.
Am I wrong? I've a hard time believing link can whiplash(yay now i know the name for it) foxs dsmash at the edge at 300% or heck 100% LOL
Fuujin
Smash Champion
He can do it to Zelda's till about that high.
I would assume Jigglypuff's and Fox's as well.
Unless you hit him far and somewhat low offstage or don't or gimp/edgehog him he can actually be pretty tough to kill.
Huggles828
Aimin' to Misbehave
Old video is old, but this shows Link using it and how to do it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0u3sUOShcI&t=4m37s
Again, you have to react really quick so it's still not easy (unless you're Legan, haha).
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Some opinions for ZSS:
Diddy Kong: I think this is even, although I can see an argument for -1 so I won't make a big deal out of it. I just wanted to say it.
Falco: This is a **** match-up. I don't know why it is listed as -2. This is -3. Falco can CG ZSS, making him one of three characters that can, and he is probably the only one where it is a real threat. (Pikachu and Donkey Kong also have CGs, but DK's is lol and Pikachu's isn't a huge deal). Falco also has hitboxes that exist in zones ZSS has a difficult time operating in and challenges her mid-range and close-range games with outright superior options. She should really never win this match.
Marth: This is pretty even. Marth and ZSS mains alike feel it is even. I don't know how this became -1 on the MU chart. lol
Wario: Same as above, except DMG thinks ZSS loses for some reason. What advantage does Wario have on ZSS anyway?
Game and Watch: +1. Really easy to keep Game and Watch out. Close range game is blatantly superior due to frame 1 jab beating all of gaw's options there. He kills ZSS really early so it isn't a total wash, but his kill moves are telegraphed and silly. Plus, sdi-uair. Aerials all beat all of gaw's aerials. Uair trades with gaw's dair, meaning he isn't as safe from juggling (zss wins when it trades).
Kirby: +2 easily lol
Fox: -1. This has been talked about over and over again, but Fox is super annoying and I don't think there's a ZSS main alive that feels this match-up isn't in Fox's favor. How did 0 even happen?
Diddy Kong: I think this is even, although I can see an argument for -1 so I won't make a big deal out of it. I just wanted to say it.
Falco: This is a **** match-up. I don't know why it is listed as -2. This is -3. Falco can CG ZSS, making him one of three characters that can, and he is probably the only one where it is a real threat. (Pikachu and Donkey Kong also have CGs, but DK's is lol and Pikachu's isn't a huge deal). Falco also has hitboxes that exist in zones ZSS has a difficult time operating in and challenges her mid-range and close-range games with outright superior options. She should really never win this match.
Marth: This is pretty even. Marth and ZSS mains alike feel it is even. I don't know how this became -1 on the MU chart. lol
Wario: Same as above, except DMG thinks ZSS loses for some reason. What advantage does Wario have on ZSS anyway?
Game and Watch: +1. Really easy to keep Game and Watch out. Close range game is blatantly superior due to frame 1 jab beating all of gaw's options there. He kills ZSS really early so it isn't a total wash, but his kill moves are telegraphed and silly. Plus, sdi-uair. Aerials all beat all of gaw's aerials. Uair trades with gaw's dair, meaning he isn't as safe from juggling (zss wins when it trades).
Kirby: +2 easily lol
Fox: -1. This has been talked about over and over again, but Fox is super annoying and I don't think there's a ZSS main alive that feels this match-up isn't in Fox's favor. How did 0 even happen?
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