-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
- Status
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
"It's automatically better because it's the original/what I grew up on!"
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
Umm, yeah, any Uair where you are close enough that the Footstool won't end before you touch the ground. Yes, It's more scary when it's random, but if you aren't perfectly SDiing the Uair out of Dthrow, you are bad. Very bad. It's like not SDIing Falco's Dair out of chaingrab when he is putting you offstage, or Marths GR Dair on MK.
Also, have you ever even played a Pikachu? Lol my practice partner and doubles teammate for the entirety of brawl is a piachu
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 11,841
Wait.
WAIT.
An elemental animal in a game about elemental animals?
you might be onto something here.
fox =/= dog, last i checked.
Nah, growlithe automatically better because ... he is.
being 1st gen has nothing to do with it.
btw, your avatar is a spirit in a household appliance.
obviously the definition of originality.
Not sure why i need to fight a pikachu to be able to realize SDIing something 100% of the time is unrealistic.
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
If you don't have experience with something, you can't really accurately judge it.
Again, I don't perfectly SDI all Uairs, but I basically never fail to SDI Guaranteed ones. And without a setup, it isn't reliable. How hard to understand is this?
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
If you gave an eight year old male child a pen and paper after explaining the concept of a game about elemental animals, I'd venture to say it's nearly guaranteed that he'd draw you a flaming dog.
"Fox is a common name for many species of omnivorous mammals belonging to the Canidae family." --Wikipedia
You're beat, sons.
So if Growlithe came out in 2010/2011 instead of 1998, he'd be just as cool to you as he is now? Probably not. It's only natural for people to display bias toward things from their childhood.
When you put it next to Sparky the fiery puppy, sure.
He's saying that after a dthrow, you should just do the SDI inputs anyway in case he uairs because there's no better option.
zeldasmash
Smash Lord
-4
-3
-2
-1
0
1
2
My opinion
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Why do you consider Falco to be worse than MK/Fox out of curiosity?
I'm a bit curious about ICs only being -1, along with DK being 0.
I'm a bit curious about ICs only being -1, along with DK being 0.
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
ICs is actually only -1. Bombs > ICs. ICs win because links sucks, but his general tools are good against us (think Jiggs VS Diddy)
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
*shrugs*
It's understandable, but I didn't think the bombs would pull it that close to even. Sure he has bombs and in theory boomerang to disrupt the ICs, but I couldn't think of much else in the way of tools.
Guess it's kinda the same boat as Ike vs ICs where Ike/Link have a few tools that really screw over the ICs. Except Ike has more. Cool.
It's understandable, but I didn't think the bombs would pull it that close to even. Sure he has bombs and in theory boomerang to disrupt the ICs, but I couldn't think of much else in the way of tools.
Guess it's kinda the same boat as Ike vs ICs where Ike/Link have a few tools that really screw over the ICs. Except Ike has more. Cool.
Coney
Smash Master
what-1
i'm pretty certain that if ddd cgs link to the ledge and then grab releases him (air release), so long as the ddd makes the bare minimum amount of effort to edgeguard, link cannot make it back.
try it sometime. it's impossible.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Why is Fox so bad for Link compared to other characters you listed in -2? I'd think the hyrulian shield alone can block Fox's lasers. And hurricane boomerange I'd think would **** up a bunch of ****. And he is very heavy.
Conviction
Human Nature
We outspeed him, gimp him like Fox was MK, shield blocks only for so long, he probably dies from Usmash around 110%, boomerang sucks, arrows suck, he isn't TL so his bombs don't work as effectively, super slow in the air, and ground.
Poltergust
Smash Master
I don't understand what you don't understand. The chart has this number, too.Actually I agree with most of his numbers for Link. The -2 vs Yoshi is the one I can't understand.
This chart is inaccurate and awful.I don't understand what you don't understand. The chart has this number, too.
Poltergust
Smash Master
That's helpful to know.
Conviction
Human Nature
I thought all spacies ***** Link...
Poltergust
Smash Master
Can you come up with a better way of doing this, then? This project involved the top players of each character (for the most part) who know about their characters and their match-ups inside out. Therefore, this chart should represent match-ups as they are in top-level play. Sure, there may be some inaccuracies, but I don't think it's justified to call the entire chart "awful."
Fuujin
Smash Champion
Ignoring the fact that almost all of the characters in this game don't even have a top level player to begin with [and if they do it's usually the wrong characters like Sonic, ZSS or Ike] I doubt that they know everything about their character or his match-ups. It's the entitlement of this chart to represent top-level play yet the vast majority of players who were discussing or used as reference for this chart are nowhere near "top" level play.This project involved the top players of each character (for the most part) who know about their characters and their match-ups inside out. Therefore, this chart should represent match-ups as they are in top-level play. Sure, there may be some inaccuracies, but I don't think it's justified to call the entire chart "awful."
I'm not even complaining about the chart's inaccuracy. It's a solid effort based on various sources focused together in this project. But don't go around pretending that "numerous top level player" or "top players for each character" were involved because these players do not exist. It's a weak attempt to justify the flaws of this chart by merely referring to the players involved. I'd be a lot more pleased if you actually had the guts to admit that 50% of the match-ups you just flat-out had no clue about because the best players who represent the match-up aren't even that good at this game.
And if there actually *is* a good amount of data involved with high- and top-level player like Fox vs MK you choose to disregard this and proceed to assign an incorrect number anyway.
You can refer to this chart of the beginning of something that could possibly - and hopefully - become a good piece of work but you can't use it in its current state to justify an inaccurate match-up number [which I believe to be the case regarding Yoshi vs Link].
Poltergust
Smash Master
Two things I don't understand with that post:
In any case, this is a V1.0 for a reason. It'll be improved in the future. As it stands, though, this chart serves as a good reference point for discussing match-ups.
First, you say that almost all the characters in this game don't have a top player. However, you then contradict yourself by saying that there are some top players playing the wrong characters (as if they should be focusing on only the top characters or something). Do you not want these characters to have top players?
Which is the original point I didn't get. Yoshi vs. Link is solidly a +2 for Yoshi... >.>
In any case, this is a V1.0 for a reason. It'll be improved in the future. As it stands, though, this chart serves as a good reference point for discussing match-ups.
Conviction
Human Nature
Lol where did I once say Fox is better suit against link than DDD.
I was defending the fact Fox is terribad for Link.
Try again.
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
You are not this stupid.First, you say that almost all the characters in this game don't have a top player. However, you then contradict yourself by saying that there are some top players playing the wrong characters (as if they should be focusing on only the top characters or something). Do you not want these characters to have top players?
You know what I mean.
And what do you base this on other than theorycrafting?
Good
No
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
links that can DI (aka any link) doesn't die from usmash until 125ish. it's crazy just how good link's DI really is. if his recovery wasn't balls he'd be SOOOO much better. but it's just so easy to gimp the poor *******....
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
then eat da poo pooDude, I ****ing love the peepee.
Gen2 is my favorite designwise, I'd say, followed by 1/3/5 in some order, then gen4. Regardless, just because it's my favorite doesn't mean it's the best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On3etueeGIg#t=23s
I actually loved gen2 as well tbh
Tagxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,482
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
also on the whole yoshi vs link, tbh perfectly honest there may like, 1 near top level link in the US. all the best links are from europe. so unless they come over here and you play them polt, honestly there is no valid claim of link in the US being a top level player and thus the true match up numbers for link are unknown on a lot of MUs
quote myself and pulse131 on a fine summer's day, "if you lose to link, regardless of how close the match was, you got *****"
quote myself and pulse131 on a fine summer's day, "if you lose to link, regardless of how close the match was, you got *****"
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
What? All the best Links are from Europe? Who? Izaw? The guy who only posts up matches Link can win against? I never see him vs high tiers like D3, Snake, Diddy, or Mk. Yet, we have Legan and Kirinblaze playing some hard *** bull**** matchups and prove themselves in tourney.
You always say things never backed up by anything and without thinking everytime lmao.
The only one in EU who can be argued to play Link at top level is Mr-R imo. I wouldn't be surprised if his Link was better than anybody else's in the USA to be honest.
I think that Smasher from Japan has the best Link overall.
I do agree with your core message though: *If* there is somebody who plays Link at top level in the USA and *if* there is somebody who plays Yoshi at top level in the USA and if they have played the match-up against each other numerous times only then you can rightfully claim to have a solid basis for your match-up. Throwing out statements like "Yoshi beats Link +2 because of XY" means nothing out of the mouth of a Yoshi player who possibly doesn't even know what a really well played Link looks like.
Edit: Izaw's Link is pretty good but he doesn't play Link that much anymore I think [at least in tourney]. It's no wonder you won't see him playing vs S- and A-Tier characters because no Link plays them. Why do you think Legan doesn't use Link mainly in tourney anymore? For the same reasons Izaw doesn't. What amazing win does Kirin have with Link? I thought he was mainly known for his Mario [which I believe to be the best in the USA at least].
Asking for the accomplishments of a Link player is like asking a beggar about his income.
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
Basically, except Ike is a much better character than Link lol. Link would win if wasn't such a generally bad character, but alas...
Just because somebody can't travel doesn't mean they don't exist. Never seen someone who is really good with their character, but bad a brawl (think all not top Diddy/ICs mains)? That's my friend lol
Also, gen 2 is the best, although 1 can be argued as well.
You guys are idiots.
I have the best Link.
I have the best Link.
Conviction
Human Nature
Vids or it didn't happen Reflex.
smashkng
Smash Lord
Actually Link's recovery isn't his only problem. His camping is very beatable and doesn't do much damage, his OoS sucks because of his slow jump and horrible grab, almost all of his moves (except Zair) are unsafe on shield and his close range combat is also pretty bad because of his lack of quick enough moves. Link just sucks because he's too slow.
- Status