Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[~ Gheb ~]

How does a character with a non-existent ground game go even with Diddy? ZSS doesn't have that powerful an aerial game.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

How does a character with a non-existent ground game go even with Diddy? ZSS doesn't have that powerful an aerial game.

ZSS' ground game doesn't suck when there are items in play, especially bananas that combo into her stuns. Plus, she has a really easy dsmash banana loop on him that is NOT some situational garbage, it is easy-ish to land, Dakpo did it on both ADHD and Gnes at WHOBO 3, and also an a MM against RH's Diddy secondary lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNlVGOf6BWI

 

[DMG]

Depends on what you mean by easy to land. So far, only people I've seen do it are some Japanese ZSS's, and Dakpo out of the blue.

With that said, I'd still have the MU as 55:45 or 6:4 Diddy favor.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's as easy to land as paralyzer shot, dsmash, or forward glide toss?

I dunno, people land those all the time as much as you'll pretend it never could happen, it has. Dakpo landed it on GOOD players not idiots, and they knew it existed.

Side note Dakpo is amazing with items, I love how he instant throws like every projectile thrown at him LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YVW2mtUVOU&feature=related dakpo vs adhd

With that said, I'd still have the MU as 55:45 or 6:4 Diddy favor.

Much wisdom from the guy who plays neither character and presumably doesn't know much about them

 

[DMG]

Lol

That's rich.

 

[zeldasmash]

I've thought about Link as one of the better LT characters for a long time now. He can cover a good amount of approach options and unlike Samus he can deal some nice damage with his keep-away game as well [zair -> DA, fair, bomb -> anything deals 15%+]. Despite having no useful grab, his close range game is fairly decent thanks to a good jab.
He also has legitimate kill set-ups and can kill at 120ish %. A bad recovery alone doesn't negate all these positive aspects. Otherwise Ness would be rock-bottom.

I think Link is better than Samus, Falcon, Bowser and maybe even Mario. Yoshi is the only Low Tier character I'd agree to be better than Link without hesitating.

Most beautiful words ive ever seen someone say about Link.

 

[Nefarious B]

Some opinions for ZSS:

Diddy Kong: I think this is even, although I can see an argument for -1 so I won't make a big deal out of it. I just wanted to say it.

Falco: This is a **** match-up. I don't know why it is listed as -2. This is -3. Falco can CG ZSS, making him one of three characters that can, and he is probably the only one where it is a real threat. (Pikachu and Donkey Kong also have CGs, but DK's is lol and Pikachu's isn't a huge deal). Falco also has hitboxes that exist in zones ZSS has a difficult time operating in and challenges her mid-range and close-range games with outright superior options. She should really never win this match.

Marth: This is pretty even. Marth and ZSS mains alike feel it is even. I don't know how this became -1 on the MU chart. lol

Wario: Same as above, except DMG thinks ZSS loses for some reason. What advantage does Wario have on ZSS anyway?

Game and Watch: +1. Really easy to keep Game and Watch out. Close range game is blatantly superior due to frame 1 jab beating all of gaw's options there. He kills ZSS really early so it isn't a total wash, but his kill moves are telegraphed and silly. Plus, sdi-uair. Aerials all beat all of gaw's aerials. Uair trades with gaw's dair, meaning he isn't as safe from juggling (zss wins when it trades).

Kirby: +2 easily lol

Fox: -1. This has been talked about over and over again, but Fox is super annoying and I don't think there's a ZSS main alive that feels this match-up isn't in Fox's favor. How did 0 even happen?

I agree with this except I think Marth is -1, his gimp game is a legitimate threat and his zoning and shield pressure are both very hard to beat. If Marth is playing well you have to make hard reads just to gain any momentum

 

[Judo777]

I've thought about Link as one of the better LT characters for a long time now. He can cover a good amount of approach options and unlike Samus he can deal some nice damage with his keep-away game as well [zair -> DA, fair, bomb -> anything deals 15%+]. Despite having no useful grab, his close range game is fairly decent thanks to a good jab.
He also has legitimate kill set-ups and can kill at 120ish %. A bad recovery alone doesn't negate all these positive aspects. Otherwise Ness would be rock-bottom.

I think Link is better than Samus, Falcon, Bowser and maybe even Mario. Yoshi is the only Low Tier character I'd agree to be better than Link without hesitating.

Then Mario????? no way. Mario is the freaking God of Low tiers. Mario has sooo many more tools than any other Low tier (bar yoshi I agree with you there). Mario has alot of pros that are non existent in other low tiers such as realtively good frame data, and some decent priority on a hand full of moves. Not to mention some pretty stellar smashes, and a beastly projectile. Obviously ness and lucas have some similar qualities but they just get straight up gayed.

Also links jab is good??? Links jab has some interesting follow up options and decent range but it doesn;t do the one thing a jab should do, which is actually come out quickly. A frame 7 jab is a problem.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mario's projectile isn't good - a grounded fireball can cover some aerial approaches and has its follow ups. But it's not a "beastly" projectile by any means ... once the opponent is starting to powershield it - and it's stupidly easy to powershield - it loses almost all of its use.

His frame data can only do so much ... it's possibly the only thing that's truly "good" about Mario in any situation [other things that Mario are good at are very situational such as platform pressure] but even then you kind of have to get yourself in a position to make good use of it. Do you think it's easy to get in a position to land one of his quick moves like jab? The risk / reward is really poor for that anyway [getting really close to the opponent for 9% // ironically it's one of Mario's best moves] and Mario is really weak in general in the neutral position ... he has no stellar smashes lol. They are good in certain situations ... and that's it.

Bowser, Ganon, Falcon, Jiggs are worse than Mario for sure. Samus and Zelda probably are too but everything else is debatable in my book. I understand the character pretty well ... in case you don't believe me I have a pretty legit Mario myself. The character is only good if he gets the opponent into a disadvantaged situation and that's not an easy task, even vs certain Low Tier characters.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Mario's projectile isn't good - a grounded fireball can cover some aerial approaches and has its follow ups. But it's not a "beastly" projectile by any means ... once the opponent is starting to powershield it - and it's stupidly easy to powershield - it loses almost all of its use.

His frame data can only do so much ... it's possibly the only thing that's truly "good" about Mario in any situation [other things that Mario are good at are very situational such as platform pressure] but even then you kind of have to get yourself in a position to make good use of it. Do you think it's easy to get in a position to land one of his quick moves like jab? The risk / reward is really poor for that anyway [getting really close to the opponent for 9% // ironically it's one of Mario's best moves] and Mario is really weak in general in the neutral position ... he has no stellar smashes lol. They are good in certain situations ... and that's it.

Fireballs are really good when you have your opponent at a specific distance.

D-Smash and F-Smash are both really good. He has some nice, unique traits.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dsmash isn't "really" good ... it's one of his better moves though and it's pretty useful. Fsmash is OK in very certain situations but "really" good is a huge stretch. It's good but only on rather rare occasions.

That "specific" distance you need for a fireball to be effective ... is easier for the opponent to manipulate than for Mario himself. Just saying.

 

[Spelt]

mario's dsmash is really good.

 

[Nanaki]

Calling his smashes stellar might be a stretch, but I'd also say they're better than 'situationally good', especially for a low tier. We're probably just arguing semantics at that point, though.

Side note: out of curiosity, is his fsmash at all punishable if spaced on a shield? I think it's -26 or -27, and has insane range. 7 frame shield drop, so ~20 frames to cover that ground and hit...before he gets out his 2 frame jab.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The main use for fsmash is to instantly punish whiffed shield grabs against bair. It's safe on block against some characters, that's true but it's still by all means situational. It's kind of a gimmcky move. Unless you hit a shield with it [it's unsafe on whiff or successful spotdodge] *and* space it perfectly it gets punished most of the time.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

D-Smash comes out on the same frame as Meta Knight's D-Smash, and the hitbox is about the same. What's not to like? >_>

 

[stingers]

mario's fsmash is also good for covering a lot of ledge get up options...and lots of chars that like to play with their range and fail on whiff (its stutter step is godly)

 

[Nanaki]

D-Smash comes out on the same frame as Meta Knight's D-Smash, and the hitbox is about the same. What's not to like? >_>

The lack of disjoint, 3 frame longer cooldown, and 4 frame longer 2nd hitbox appearance?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

D-Smash comes out on the same frame as Meta Knight's D-Smash, and the hitbox is about the same. What's not to like? >_>

MK's dsmash has a lot more range - it outranges a lot of Marth's ground moves, Mario's dsmash doesn't come close to it. MK dsmash is safer on shield or whiff, has more range and a lot more KO power [especially the 2ns hit].

Mario's dsmash is inferior in any way.

Mario's fsmash relies a LOT on the opponent not being prepared for it ... it's a gimmick. If the opponent doesn't foolishly try to shieldgrab a bair or realizes where it can hit and where it's safe ... the move becomes useful in very specific situations only [and it's already very situational].

 

[Nanaki]

I think Mario's dsmash does slightly more damage than MK's, so it's not inferior in EVERY way.

/nitpick

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The lack of disjoint, 3 frame longer cooldown, and 4 frame longer 2nd hitbox appearance?

Mario's D-Smash has nice priority, regardless. As for the slightly longer cooldown period, we're assuming that you're aiming to -hit- with it, rather than throwing it out and hoping for the best.

As for the second hitbox, I'll grant that you can't get the powerful second swing of Meta Knight's D-Smash, but as far as "covering your ***," it doesn't make much of a difference overall if you're trying to hit with the first hit, anyway.

I never said that it's just as good as Meta Knight's D-Smash, but, the similar traits do say a lot of good about it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*reads the various Mario praise*

Er...have you all been smoking the same stuff as A2ZOMG suddenly?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't think Mario is all that special--Pierce thinks he's the second coming of Pokémon Trainer or something--However, there's definitely a fair amount of usefulness in him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

lol @ the idea of Mario going up at all.

I think Bowser should be above him for crying out loud. At least Bowser has his nice Up B, Koopa Claw, and Ground Release stuff to back up his strength. Mario's "strong point" in gimping just isn't that impressive, and the rest of him is average at best.

Mario is just so "bleh".

 

[Nanaki]

Mario's D-Smash has nice priority, regardless. As for the slightly longer cooldown period, we're assuming that you're aiming to -hit- with it, rather than throwing it out and hoping for the best.

As for the second hitbox, I'll grant that you can't get the powerful second swing of Meta Knight's D-Smash, but as far as "covering your ***," it doesn't make much of a difference overall if you're trying to hit with the first hit, anyway.

I never said that it's just as good as Meta Knight's D-Smash, but, the similar traits do say a lot of good about it.

Even if you're assuming you'll hit with it, odds are you're doing it to punish a spotdodge or something similar, where those extra 3 frames may make a difference if you do miraculously miss. Either way, it's nitpicking and I don't want to argue with you about it.

As far as the 2nd hit, coming out later is probably actually better for landing it against spotdodges or late airdodges, so that's not necessarily even a downside. Again, I was nitpicking and flaunting frame data.

It's definitely not as good as MK's, but I agree, it's a great smash for a low tier - I'm picking tiny differences out of a comparison to one of the best dsmashes in the game.

 

[Spelt]

The lack of disjoint, 3 frame longer cooldown, and 4 frame longer 2nd hitbox appearance?

LOL.
do you think you're comparing marth to mk or something?
mario is low tier... all of those things seems pretty respectable to me.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Mario is a fine low tier. He suffers from being average in every way, but isn't really bad except for recovery

 

[Poltergust]

And range. At least overall.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I forgot about that lol

 

[Juushichi]

Why the hell are we talking about Mario?

Let's go back to talking about high tiers, Sonic or Yoshi.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Cuz Mario is your waifu

 

[Judo777]

By stellar smashes I simply meant that all 3 of Marios smashes are pretty useful which is a trait that not alot of characters share. I can't think of any character in low tiers except maybe Lucas and Zelda who has all 3 of their smashes being about as good as Marios.
And Marios fsmash is really freaking good at one thing which is what its should be used for alot. Using the lean back to punish moves. My buddy crash used to always say that Marios fsmash alone makes the Mario Luigi MU evenish. Because Marios fsmash just out spaced the PISS out of Luigi. If you ever predict a swing you can make alot of characters eat smashes.

But yea comparing Mario to MK is a pretty big stretch too obviously. MK as the best moveset in the game by a large margin so A low tier like Mario even being in the ball park is pretty impressive.

 

[Browny]

Mario is a fine low tier. He suffers from being average in every way, but isn't really bad except for recovery

Two thousand and eleven is the year we are in.

And this still goes around. FFFFF

First step; ignore everything you ever thought you knew about mario. Consider him like... diddy when you first played the game, had NO idea how good/bad he was.

Now, look at things which define a character. Weight, range, speed, recovery, projectiles and power you say? Maybe to someone brand new to the game. They are all basic attributes which affect him, but arent considering the other 50% of the game. THE OTHER PLAYER (and his interactions with them).

Consider what is actually important in this game; the actual fighting. How safe is mario on block? Can he pressure characters on the ledge heavily? How hard can he punish reads? How threatening is he to someone recovering? How does he escape combos? How does he combo himself? how can he recover vs edgeguarders? How does he get an opening on a walling character? How well can he avoid getting KO'd if he gets a stock lead? how does he land safely vs characters who punish landings heavily (escape juggels)?

I could go on all day about the dozens of characters interactions which make up this game. Now while the first five traits (weight etc) he gets scores of average, low, average, poor, good and average, lets look at how he rates in the other categories. personally id rate him as poor, poor, medium, low, low, good, poor, low, poor, low. Remember, all of these traits are compared to the rest of the cast. fireballs may cover landings safely, but when most other characters have strong wavebounces/b reverses or all sorts of methods to switch up their landing, fireballs doesnt look so strong anymore.

Mario is by no means average. The only thing I would put him average in is weight, combos and projectile. every other aspect is low/poor with a few debatable around low/av/good IMO.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

lol it's a good thing you're all geniuses when it comes to low tiers

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I said it once in the last tier thread and got mocked which means I'm going to say it again:

No one bothers to play Mario because Luigi exists. No, they aren't the same but they have the same fan base, and a playstyle that isn't exactly worlds different, and Luigi punishes soooo much better.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

and weegee kills earlier, has cyclone, dat jab>*insert move*. not to mention he actually does have a recovery. mario and luigi are worlds apart and so is how they are played, lmao at whoever said earlier that they are played the same. my best friend blaze mains weegee and our other buddy mains mario and they would laugh their ***** off is they read that

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I didn't say they are the same but they aren't exactly Meta Knight and Bowser

 

[Z'zgashi]

and weegee kills earlier, has cyclone, dat jab>*insert move*. not to mention he actually does have a recovery. mario and luigi are worlds apart and so is how they are played, lmao at whoever said earlier that they are played the same. my best friend blaze mains weegee and our other buddy mains mario and they would laugh their ***** off is they read that

Both of those characters are low tier

 

[Thebest1pj]

Why isnt falco -2 for tl?

edit: ics should be 0

g&w should 0

peach should be 0

luigi should be 0

 

[Yikarur]

and why? explain!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No TL owns Peach lol