Metaknights' Even matchups? Open discussion

[bassem6]

My opinion is that the grass is blue.

Doesn't mean the grass actually is blue.

Idk about this example.

Grass is physically green and we can see it and confirm it. You cant look at an MU and then say "oh that MU is x" because its not clearly visible what an MU ratio is.

The closest thing to an accurate MU ratio that we can have is what the majority of people agree that an MU is. Whereas if a majority of people said grass is blue, then it wouldnt matter because grass would still be green. So I think that everybody's opinion plays a part when it comes to deciding what an MU ratio is.

 

[Life]

Well, that's the thing. Maybe what looks green to everyone else looks blue to me (I'm partially colorblind btw, I used to think about this as a toddler) or something like that, since our brains all work slightly differently.

Alternatively, to turn it around, I could take matchup statistics from high level play and find that the MK-Shiek MU is 71.67-29.33, or whatever. I don't have those stats on hand, but who would anyone be to argue if I did? If you argue that I was biased in determining which matches constitute "high level play", then I turn around and ask what constitutes the color blue. If someone gives me a specific set of frequencies (or for these examples, a specific set of RGB numbers) that result in the color blue, that's still subjective--is #111166 close enough to "blue"? How about #6600FF? For that matter, #DD00FF is still mostly blue, even though it would be closer to magenta than blue.

Color is subjective, therefore the grass is blue IMO and you can't disprove it.

(geez, this looks like a Tesh post with all the colors)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdLBDBwaq04&t=5m40s

BPC should just stick to stage discussion

Hmm... A few things.

First of all, that's Leon (second-best Marth in the world, I'd argue) vs. Glutonny (best player in Europe). Saying those two are on an equal level is fairly ridiculous; Glutonny does not lose. His record in europe is ridiculous. Secondly, Glutonny beat Leon's marth with MK... But he also did it with Wario. That matchup is HORRIBLE for wario! You'll also notice that it was pretty ****ing close. Finally, in the related videos, we see... Kaos vs. Leon. Kaos is the best or second-best MK in France, possibly in all of europe... And he still gets his *** handed to him in winners semifinals of the same tournament. And that's just Leon-Mr R has been consistently wasting all comers at german tournaments (including Staco, Orion, Kaos, and Bjay), and I think he actually beat Ally's MK at nGamers (ally beat him by going DDD, ICs, and Snake).

This example is about as good as, say, every one of your RC examples. I'd say "go back to X", but you've proven massive incompetence everywhere you've posted, not just in certain areas.

I think Diddy, Fox, Falco, ICs and Olimar go even against MK and Snake, Pikachu, Sheik, Marth and Wario only have a slight disadvantage.

LMAO
MK beats diddy and fox by a decent margin, and ****s on ICs, Sheik, and Wario. I really have to wonder if you're not trolling at this point.

Also IC's? even vs MK? really? i'd almost put IC's at solid disadvantage. Jebus who do you play in tournament? do you play in tournament? Because ur grasp on MU's is pretty questionable.

He's 8th in socal. Kind of depressing, honestly.

 

[bassem6]

hmm ok. It doesnt have to be grass though. Replace grass with any quantifiable equation or fact such as 2+2=4. MU ratios arent quanitifiable IMO. The closest thing you can do, like you said, is to use statistics to find the actual number of matches won and lost between any two characters. But even that could be inaccurate due to undiscovered talent, techniques or metagame shifts.

So all we really have available for us for MU ratios are peoples opinions. So I dont think that any opinion should be immediately disregarded.

Hmm... A few things.

First of all, that's Leon (second-best Marth in the world, I'd argue) vs. Glutonny (best player in Europe). Saying those two are on an equal level is fairly ridiculous; Glutonny does not lose. His record in europe is ridiculous. Secondly, Glutonny beat Leon's marth with MK... But he also did it with Wario. That matchup is HORRIBLE for wario! You'll also notice that it was pretty ****ing close. Finally, in the related videos, we see... Kaos vs. Leon. Kaos is the best or second-best MK in France, possibly in all of europe... And he still gets his *** handed to him in winners semifinals of the same tournament. And that's just Leon-Mr R has been consistently wasting all comers at german tournaments (including Staco, Orion, Kaos, and Bjay), and I think he actually beat Ally's MK at nGamers (ally beat him by going DDD, ICs, and Snake).

This example is about as good as, say, every one of your RC examples. I'd say "go back to X", but you've proven massive incompetence everywhere you've posted, not just in certain areas.



LMAO
MK beats diddy and fox by a decent margin, and ****s on ICs, Sheik, and Wario. I really have to wonder if you're not trolling at this point.



He's 8th in socal. Kind of depressing, honestly.

Just to clear any misconceptions. Wario:marth and wario:mk are not as bad as you make them out to be. 45-55 mk/marth adv IMO

 

[B.A.M.]

Bpc if Leon is the second best Marth to you then who is the first? And I hope you aren't inferring Leon is better than Mr. R at this point.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

vs is +1 for MK

 

[Chuee]

LMAO
MK beats diddy and fox by a decent margin, and ****s on ICs, Sheik, and Wario. I really have to wonder if you're not trolling at this point.

He's 8th in socal. Kind of depressing, honestly.

Not really. Fox has a better record vs top MKs than just about any other character except maybe Falco. MK doesn't **** on ICs or Wario, maybe sheik but not on those two.

Bpc if Leon is the second best Marth to you then who is the first? And I hope you aren't inferring Leon is better than Mr. R at this point.

Mikehaze

 

[DMG]

Just to clear any misconceptions. Wario:marth and wario:mk are not as bad as you make them out to be. 45-55 mk/marth adv IMO

Bassem, Marth sucks complete balls for Wario. You can say what you want about MK, but Marth cleanly wins hands down.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Mr.R could be the best Marth player in the world. Fox vs MK could be even, don't know atm.

 

[bassem6]

Bassem, Marth sucks complete balls for Wario. You can say what you want about MK, but Marth cleanly wins hands down.

Explain yourself mr bobby. I played against chaz in florida and we were going pretty even/he was winning a bit more. Then there were some friendlies with mikehaze at mlg dallas which also gave me the same impression.

I dont think its worse than 55-45 marth. Marth gets juggled like a ***** by wario and has a hard time killing. Yes marth can wall wario out but once wario gets in....HE GETS IN.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

As a Jigglypuff main, I'd say that it's only a +1 for Marth.

Puff is pretty similar to Wario, and I play against Marths all the time (it's one of my favourite match-ups) and have found numerous way of getting in. I'd put Puff/Marth as -2.

So if Jigglypuff can do it, it stands to reason that Wario can do it better.

 

[bassem6]

As a Jigglypuff main, I'd say that it's only a +1 for Marth.

Puff is pretty similar to Wario, and I play against Marths all the time (it's one of my favourite match-ups) and have found numerous way of getting in. I'd put Puff/Marth as -2.

So if Jigglypuff can do it, it stands to reason that Wario can do it better.

agreed

10agreed

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just to clear any misconceptions. Wario:marth and wario:mk are not as bad as you make them out to be. 45-55 mk/marth adv IMO

I've heard differently on both counts from fairly reliable sources.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I do agree that Wario/MK is a +2 for MK, though.

 

[DMG]

Mikehaze in friendlies is a LOT different than Mikehaze in bracket.


Either way, that MU sucks. It's at least 6:4 for Marth, and that's being positive lol

 

[bassem6]

I've heard differently on both counts from fairly reliable sources.

Eh, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. Just dont say something like its fact unless youre for sure that its universally agreed upon.

Mikehaze in friendlies is a LOT different than Mikehaze in bracket.


Either way, that MU sucks. It's at least 6:4 for Marth, and that's being positive lol

Thats true. I could agree with 6:4 but I lean more towards team 55:45

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Hmm... A few things.

First of all, that's Leon (second-best Marth in the world, I'd argue) vs. Glutonny (best player in Europe). Saying those two are on an equal level is fairly ridiculous; Glutonny does not lose. His record in europe is ridiculous. Secondly, Glutonny beat Leon's marth with MK... But he also did it with Wario. That matchup is HORRIBLE for wario! You'll also notice that it was pretty ****ing close. Finally, in the related videos, we see... Kaos vs. Leon. Kaos is the best or second-best MK in France, possibly in all of europe... And he still gets his *** handed to him in winners semifinals of the same tournament. And that's just Leon-Mr R has been consistently wasting all comers at german tournaments (including Staco, Orion, Kaos, and Bjay), and I think he actually beat Ally's MK at nGamers (ally beat him by going DDD, ICs, and Snake).

This example is about as good as, say, every one of your RC examples. I'd say "go back to X", but you've proven massive incompetence everywhere you've posted, not just in certain areas.



LMAO
MK beats diddy and fox by a decent margin, and ****s on ICs, Sheik, and Wario. I really have to wonder if you're not trolling at this point.



He's 8th in socal. Kind of depressing, honestly.

1. Glutonny doesn't even main or second main MK. If this MU is as even as you say it is, the second best Marth in the World shouldn't have that much trouble taking out a character Glutonny doesn't even main. Also, Kaos may be the best MK in Europe, but that doesn't mean anything when there are at least twenty MK's in the world that are better then him. How are you going to compare someone who you say is the second best Marth in the world to someone who wouldn't even make it to the top fifteen in the world with MK?

2. You are nuts if you think MK solidly beats Fox, Diddy, and ICs. Fox has a better win record against MK than any other character does in the last two years. Diddy Kong can be a ***** for MK if he plays the MU right. Against top level ICs, MK just better hope he doesn't **** up.

 

[Chuee]

If this MU is as even as you say it is, the second best math in the World shouldn't have that much trouble taking out a character Glutonny doesn't even main.

I think that I am the best math in the world.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@ BPC, watch the first Match of the set http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm2rLohppzk
If you can't figure out why Kaos lost the set, then you are just bad at this game.

 

[DMG]

Gluttony has a pocket MK. Dunno how much he uses it as of recently, but I do know he's gone against Kaos and other MK players in the ditto quite a bit before.

 

[OverLade]

Explain yourself mr bobby. I played against chaz in florida and we were going pretty even/he was winning a bit more. Then there were some friendlies with mikehaze at mlg dallas which also gave me the same impression.

I dont think its worse than 55-45 marth. Marth gets juggled like a ***** by wario and has a hard time killing. Yes marth can wall wario out but once wario gets in....HE GETS IN.

Chaz isn't even that good at the matchup, no offense to him but I know because he loses to Se1briks wario and his wario isn't even that good comparatively. Imo Marth and MK both beat Wario 6-4 solidly. All you have to do is camp and zone backwards. If you get a percent lead in either matchup Wario is finished, he has no real way to get in on either character.

I'm not known for it but I've beaten S3ibr1k in a set with my Wario before, I know what the character does but I also main MK and have a pocket marth/play against a ton of marths in my region who go even with me regardless of how much better I am then they are because the matchup is that bad.

vs is +1 for MK

Lol no

 

[bassem6]

Chaz isn't even that good at the matchup, no offense to him but I know because he loses to Se1briks wario and his wario isn't even that good comparatively. Imo Marth and MK both beat Wario 6-4 solidly. All you have to do is camp and zone backwards. If you get a percent lead in either matchup Wario is finished, he has no real way to get in on either character.

I'm not known for it but I've beaten S3ibr1k in a set with my Wario before, I know what the character does but I also main MK and have a pocket marth/play against a ton of marths in my region who go even with me regardless of how much better I am then they are because the matchup is that bad.



Lol no

I'll concede the marth ratio. But I remain convinced that wario mk is 55:45 mk. You'll have to watch my sets with holy(once theyre uploaded) and then tell me what you think.

 

[Judo777]

@ BPC, watch the first Match of the set http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm2rLohppzk
If you can't figure out why Kaos lost the set, then you are just bad at this game.

Watching that match i would say that both player played the MU like a champ. Both players seemed to have pretty good knowledge of the MU (at least what I know of it). However while Kaos is certainly good and did some impressive things, I feel that there was a significant difference in skill. Leon just freaking played completely perfect. I mean everything, his spacing his timing, his decisions all completely flaw less (for the most part obv.). Like Kaos every now and then made a few bad choices and misspaced every now and again but Leon just didn't mess up like at all.

I personally think Leon should have won that match by a much larger margin than he did. But there were a few "LOL MK" moments that messed it up. I have never seen a more precise marth in my whole life.

Also people love throwing around that fox has the best success against MK of any character right now. You wanna know why? Because there aren't very many and fox has a decent MU with MK. That would be like me saying "actually Captain Falcon has the best success against MK than any other character, because Ally has beaten tons of MK's with his Falcon and hes the only one there is."

Which foxes have been beating MK's? Like TKD, Trevont, Zeton and maybe a few others. TKD i have no doubt in my mind is one of the best players in North America. I would be willing to argue there are not more than 7 players in North America better than he is. When a ton of your success comes from one player that us just really freaking good it doesn't necessarily mean the MU is even.

Granted I'm sure the other foxes have been doing well also but how many MK's in North America do you honestly think know the fox MU? How can they they don't ever get to play them because there are like 5.

 

[Chuee]

Which foxes have been beating MK's? Like TKD, Trevont, Zeton and maybe a few others. TKD i have no doubt in my mind is one of the best players in North America. I would be willing to argue there are not more than 7 players in North America better than he is. When a ton of your success comes from one player that us just really freaking good it doesn't necessarily mean the MU is even.

Granted I'm sure the other foxes have been doing well also but how many MK's in North America do you honestly think know the fox MU? How can they they don't ever get to play them because there are like 5.

TKD has beaten multiple top MKs while only losing 2 sets in that MU, once against Tyrant (the first set TKD went MK game 5 on Delfino) and once against Anti. Trevonte has beaten the same MKs that TKD has and beat TKDs MK.
In Japan, Yui has beaten every top MK there (El, Otori, Rain) multiple times each, his only set lose against Rain which was 2-1.
Don't know the MU?
Tyrant has played against TKD a large number of times. Even though he doesn't do too well against other Fox's, he always does well against TKD. Tearbear has also played against TKD for quite awhile.
Yui's been a top Fox player in Japan for a few years now, the MKs there have had PLENTY of time to learn the MU and multiple other good Fox players to play against. Even watching the video's, they know what they're doing.

 

[OverLade]

I'll concede the marth ratio. But I remain convinced that wario mk is 55:45 mk. You'll have to watch my sets with holy(once theyre uploaded) and then tell me what you think.

The thing is, if Marth can completely box out Wario then there's absolutely no way MK can't do it better. I seriously doubt Holy is a MK player who plays gay, or knows the Wario matchup very well, as a combination of both are required to make it unwinnable. Your set with Dojo from a year or two ago is one of my favorite sets, but he's an extremely aggressive MK who happens to be very precise. If you take the same precision and then make it defensive Wario has no way to land farts, and no way to get in horizontally or vertically.

Imo Wario feels really bad vs a lot of characters if they actually know the limit to his horizontal to vertical speed ratio. He doesn't really have any characters besides link that he beats past 60:40 and everything else is between that and 30:70.

 

[Deleted member]

I heard that TKD quit. :/

Edit: AC, a player that practiced with him often, said this over a month ago. Too bad.

 

[Judo777]

TKD has beaten multiple top MKs while only losing 2 sets in that MU, once against Tyrant (the first set TKD went MK game 5 on Delfino) and once against Anti. Trevonte has beaten the same MKs that TKD has and beat TKDs MK.
In Japan, Yui has beaten every top MK there (El, Otori, Rain) multiple times each, his only set lose against Rain which was 2-1.
Don't know the MU?
Tyrant has played against TKD a large number of times. Even though he doesn't do too well against other Fox's, he always does well against TKD. Tearbear has also played against TKD for quite awhile.
Yui's been a top Fox player in Japan for a few years now, the MKs there have had PLENTY of time to learn the MU and multiple other good Fox players to play against. Even watching the video's, they know what they're doing.

Yes these are the same 3 foxes I hear about all the time. So its 3 foxes then? And you said yourself that TKD doesn't do well in the MU soooooo no he probably doesn't know the MU very well. He does well against TKD, or maybe he doesn't do well against TKD and the MU just isn't even. How can you tell?

Is Japan just riddled with high placing foxes that beat MK's all the time? Or is it like Yui beats top level MK's and then there are a few pretty good foxes that don't? More importantly so does earth and Masashi (at least from what I have heard masashis might be a bit dated) and there are lots of pits in Japan is that MU even too?

How many times has Trevonte beaten these top MKs I have only heard of one occaison where he did this amazing feat (which was amazing btw)? Maybe he just had a really nasty tournament. That crap happens sometimes. I was told a while back YBM's Zss beat every major player in the MW (bar maybe michigan) at one tournament but he doesn't do it all the time.

More importantly you can't tell me for a second that anybody in the U.S. knows the fox MU as well as TKD knows the MK MU. If the only fox that Tyrant and Tear bear really play is TKD then they shouldn't be gaining that much ground on him if the MU is anywhere around even. Both people should be adapting to the other if they are around the same skill.

 

[ADHD]

Anyone that beats Metaknight is a gimmick.

The bottom line is that he should never lose.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Watching that match i would say that both player played the MU like a champ. Both players seemed to have pretty good knowledge of the MU (at least what I know of it). However while Kaos is certainly good and did some impressive things, I feel that there was a significant difference in skill. Leon just freaking played completely perfect. I mean everything, his spacing his timing, his decisions all completely flaw less (for the most part obv.). Like Kaos every now and then made a few bad choices and misspaced every now and again but Leon just didn't mess up like at all.

I personally think Leon should have won that match by a much larger margin than he did. But there were a few "LOL MK" moments that messed it up. I have never seen a more precise marth in my whole life.

Also people love throwing around that fox has the best success against MK of any character right now. You wanna know why? Because there aren't very many and fox has a decent MU with MK. That would be like me saying "actually Captain Falcon has the best success against MK than any other character, because Ally has beaten tons of MK's with his Falcon and hes the only one there is."

Which foxes have been beating MK's? Like TKD, Trevont, Zeton and maybe a few others. TKD i have no doubt in my mind is one of the best players in North America. I would be willing to argue there are not more than 7 players in North America better than he is. When a ton of your success comes from one player that us just really freaking good it doesn't necessarily mean the MU is even.

Granted I'm sure the other foxes have been doing well also but how many MK's in North America do you honestly think know the fox MU? How can they they don't ever get to play them because there are like 5.

I can't believe you couldn't see what I saw. I expected more from a BBR member

 

[Deleted member]

Lol no

Well, MK doesn't really have any even matchups, so I can only assume you think vs is -2 for Wolf or worse.

Have you even played any good Wolf mains?

Edit: Or maybe I'm wrong and you think it's even, but that definitely shouldn't be the case.

 

[bassem6]

Anyone that beats Metaknight is a gimmick.

The bottom line is that he should never lose.

So grave with your post lol. This is only true if the mk knows how to play every (reasonable) MU perfectly. There are so many mks that most everybody knows how to play optimally against him with their character. However, not every mk knows what to do in certain MU's. And there isnt a single mk user (not even m2k) that does.

Thus there's some semblance of hope

 

[Judo777]

I can't believe you couldn't see what I saw. I expected more from a BBR member

Well firstly you are dumb for expecting anything special from an online group that is completely made up.

And i was looking as an unbiased viewer because I didn't even read the conversation up to the point you posted the video so if you disagree that actually hurts your argument a decent amount because I didn't even know what to look for. I just saw Leon out play the living piss out of Kaos and make virtually no mistakes.

 

[Life]

Quick, somebody go Ganondorf against M2K, he won't have a clue what to do!

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Well firstly you are dumb for expecting anything special from an online group that is completely made up.

And i was looking as an unbiased viewer because I didn't even read the conversation up to the point you posted the video so if you disagree that actually hurts your argument a decent amount because I didn't even know what to look for. I just saw Leon out play the living piss out of Kaos and make virtually no mistakes.

I guess it doesn't matter since I was asking BPC and not you

 

[Judo777]

I guess it doesn't matter since I was asking BPC and not you

good thing its a public forum and I can post what I want and contribute to the conversation regardless of if anyone wants.

@complex dude he freaking won't lol. He would probably just nado alot like he normally does in MU's he doesn't know and win anyway lol. That would be a fun test tho haha.

 

[Deleted member]

Quick, somebody go Ganondorf against M2K, he won't have a clue what to do!

Fonz should be the one to do it.

 

[Orion*]

Hmm... A few things.

First of all, that's Leon (second-best Marth in the world, I'd argue) vs. Glutonny (best player in Europe). Saying those two are on an equal level is fairly ridiculous; Glutonny does not lose. His record in europe is ridiculous. Secondly, Glutonny beat Leon's marth with MK... But he also did it with Wario. That matchup is HORRIBLE for wario! You'll also notice that it was pretty ****ing close. Finally, in the related videos, we see... Kaos vs. Leon. Kaos is the best or second-best MK in France, possibly in all of europe... And he still gets his *** handed to him in winners semifinals of the same tournament. And that's just Leon-Mr R has been consistently wasting all comers at german tournaments (including Staco, Orion, Kaos, and Bjay), and I think he actually beat Ally's MK at nGamers (ally beat him by going DDD, ICs, and Snake).

This example is about as good as, say, every one of your RC examples. I'd say "go back to X", but you've proven massive incompetence everywhere you've posted, not just in certain areas.



LMAO
MK beats diddy and fox by a decent margin, and ****s on ICs, Sheik, and Wario. I really have to wonder if you're not trolling at this point.



He's 8th in socal. Kind of depressing, honestly.

So much slander and false information holy ****

 

[bassem6]

Quick, somebody go Ganondorf against M2K, he won't have a clue what to do!

You cant do that! I put (reasonable) MU! meaning like high tier and above! Not ANY MU. AHHHHHH

 

[Life]

It's a joke, chill LOL

 

[bassem6]

It's a joke, chill LOL

Chilling...chilling...CHILL!