Metaknights' Even matchups? Open discussion

[Budget Player Cadet_]

1. Glutonny doesn't even main or second main MK. If this MU is as even as you say it is, the second best Marth in the World shouldn't have that much trouble taking out a character Glutonny doesn't even main.

...You do know that Glutonny is a world-class player, right? Like, as in, his only real international result has him beating Ally for first place at a 200-man international in Paris. Since then, he's lost... never? I don't think Glutonny has ever dropped a tournament set since then. I may be wrong, but we're talking about a player who is on a level with players like M2K, Ally, and 9B vs. a player who is on a level with players like Orion, Lp, and MikeHaze. Big ****ing difference.

But furthermore, Glutonny doesn't main MK? How the **** do you know? You don't just randomly pick up a character and beat a top player because the matchup is bad. Not when it's "bad" like Marth vs. MK. No, Glutonny knew what he was doing. Big surprise there. You're full of ****.

Also, Kaos may be the best MK in Europe, but that doesn't mean anything when there are at least twenty MK's in the world that are better then him. How are you going to compare someone who you say is the second best Marth in the world to someone who wouldn't even make it to the top fifteen in the world with MK?

Do me a favor and count the number of noteworthy marths in the USA.
Now count the number of noteworthy MKs.
See the discrepancy? On one side we have... Mikehaze. On the other we have M2K, Ally, Nairo, Ksizzle, Anti, Tyrant, Seibrik... I could go on for days. Not to mention that Kaos doesn't really have much of a chance to test himself against the international crowd; for all we know, he could damn well be the fourth or fifth-best MK in the world. How am I going to compare them? Hmm... maybe a look at the tournament results?

Moron.

2. You are nuts if you think MK solidly beats Fox, Diddy, and ICs. Fox has a better win record against MK than any other character does in the last two years.

Because of two factors:
1. TKD is ****ing amazing. Like, top 10 in the world amazing.
2. A lot of people have never played against a competent fox. Ever.

Diddy Kong can be a ***** for MK if he plays the MU right.

...Which is why M2K, Ally, and Anti still lose consistently against Gnes and ADHD. Or no, they just aren't doing it right.

Against top level ICs, MK just better hope he doesn't **** up.

ICs cannot touch MK. That matchup is balls.

I guess it doesn't matter since I was asking BPC and not you

...Are you in this to show that you're smarter than me? If not, then this post makes no sense. If so, then debating with you makes no sense. I'm here to get the facts straight, whether I'm right or wrong. If you're just out to show me up as stupid, then you're not being productive. Then again, judging from your history, that wouldn't be the dumbest thing you've done.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I can tell you right now that Kaos is no where near top 5 of top MKs. He doesn't know how to air dodge (he either air dodges too early or not at all) and in the first match, right after the first stock, I could already see that he was going to get punished a lot for his habit of spot dodging right after he missed a grab. He did this at least six times. A top player has to adapt a lot quicker than that

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@Orion: What do I have wrong?

 

[Kuro~]

Yes these are the same 3 foxes I hear about all the time. So its 3 foxes then? And you said yourself that TKD doesn't do well in the MU soooooo no he probably doesn't know the MU very well. He does well against TKD, or maybe he doesn't do well against TKD and the MU just isn't even. How can you tell?

Is Japan just riddled with high placing foxes that beat MK's all the time? Or is it like Yui beats top level MK's and then there are a few pretty good foxes that don't? More importantly so does earth and Masashi (at least from what I have heard masashis might be a bit dated) and there are lots of pits in Japan is that MU even too?

How many times has Trevonte beaten these top MKs I have only heard of one occaison where he did this amazing feat (which was amazing btw)? Maybe he just had a really nasty tournament. That crap happens sometimes. I was told a while back YBM's Zss beat every major player in the MW (bar maybe michigan) at one tournament but he doesn't do it all the time.

More importantly you can't tell me for a second that anybody in the U.S. knows the fox MU as well as TKD knows the MK MU. If the only fox that Tyrant and Tear bear really play is TKD then they shouldn't be gaining that much ground on him if the MU is anywhere around even. Both people should be adapting to the other if they are around the same skill.

Eh it's more back and forth for the pit vs mk thing. They don't dominate the mks at all. It's definitely not as bad as some ppl think though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

2. You are nuts if you think MK solidly beats Fox, Diddy, and ICs. Fox has a better win record against MK than any other character does in the last two years. Diddy Kong can be a ***** for MK if he plays the MU right. Against top level ICs, MK just better hope he doesn't **** up.

No one said that MK solidly beats those characters, but none of them have an advantage against Meta Knight on Final Destination.

Fox and Diddy Kong are -1s, ICs are -2. Any good player of either character will tell you that.

Quick, somebody go Ganondorf against M2K, he won't have a clue what to do!

When M2K was in Australia for Robocop, he got hit by Ganon's Up Tilt in a friendly.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

TKD has already said that the Fox vs. MK MU is even.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And any of the top MKs will say otherwise ('cept maybe M2K cause he is stupid when it comes to game theory), get out-numbered TKD.

 

[SFA Smiley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2XSo_V2ELo

Last match.

I don't think Gdubs is Even but some things I think I'd highlight

-GW (And possibly marth I'd assume) is one of very few characters that can match MK in the Air
-GW can edgeguard MK (Nobody else can reliably do it except another MK)
-GW has somewhat reliable responses for 2 of MK's best moves (Uair on Nado and Shuttle Loop) that results in high reward for low risk
-GW has good techchase followups on MK
-GW's Best stages are also MK's best stages so MK can't counterpick him, because he (Like MK) does good pretty much anywhere (He doesn't give a ****)

Of course there's only a handful of players that can match top level MKs with GW, and He beats us on the ground. I believe at top levels GW is definitely scarier for MK than most people think, it's just that nobody ever sees this matchup happen because ICs, Snakes, and Marth, and Falcos, And Olimars (you get the point) totally get in the way

 

[Grim Tuesday]

From what I've seen of the match-up, it's -2 at ABSOLUTE worst, -1 at ABSOLUTE best.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I think it's -1, personally. But i'm just saiyan /goku

 

[DMG]

G^W scary for MK because MK players not patient enough overall. Camping him with the lead is very strong, same with vs Wario. But people too busy trying to beat him out with Fair and ****

 

[Orion*]

@Orion: What do I have wrong?

like everything.

your whole thought process is completely and utterly ****ed up :<

i understand WHY you think what you're thinking because you explain yourself clearly enough. but your opinions on MKs MUs and player skill I just don't agree with at all

 

[Mr-R]

you also forgot to mention that glutonny hasn't been to an international since bushido impact ( the one ally was attending )
not to discredit the guy or anything, consistently beating leon every month isn't an easy task.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

you also forgot to mention that glutonny hasn't been to an international since bushido impact ( the one ally was attending )
not to discredit the guy or anything, consistently beating leon every month isn't an easy task.

Yeah, he needs to swing his *** down to APEX or something.

 

[M@v]

Have you ever played against Kain or Semifer?

Also, USA don't know 'bout that Marth matchup... I think it's fair to say that given the german ruleset (RC and Brinstar banned), Marth goes even with MK, maybe even beats him slightly.

No way in hell marth could beat mk even with the best ruleset. Even with rc/brinstar gone? Mk still has frigate, Delfino, and Stadium 2 in lots of places. This matchup actually is pretty evenish on the ground. MK got better priority, but most of marth's moves outrange mk's though. Mk's fsmash is pretty much the same range as marth's though.

Offstage is where this mu is mk's favor. Mk Destroys marth so badly offstage. Brinstar/RC gone? Take him to another place its easy to get him airborne.

Let's not even get into how bad marth is at dealing with juggling. And mk is the best juggler...

 

[Mr-R]

How is marth bad at dealing with juggling? he has good airspeed, counter, wavebouncing and most of the time u can create enough horizontal space to get a fair when ur landing.

 

[M@v]

Compared to his other strengths, Marth's ability to stop juggling is noticeably weaker than stuff like his range, spacing and kill power.

If I don't try to fly up after you every time, I can have more than enough time to get under you before you reach the ground.

Counter? That's extremely risky. If you call it wrong your getting punished hardcore D:

The wavebouncing is one of the things he does have going for him.


As mk if I don't blatantly make it obvious im going to come up right after you and go for an upair, it makes things much more complicated. When I'm juggling marth, I normally try to make him react first by hovering right below him in the air, or waiting on the ground right below him, and either jumping up at the last second and upairing, uptilt him, or if he tries to airdodge into the ground, either dsmash him if he's high percent or grab him and upthrow/fthrow him back into the air. If I think he's going to try to counter , I'll empty jump to bait it.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I thought the only move marth has that has more range than any of MKs moves is the shield breaker

 

[M@v]

Shield breaker is just marth's longest ranged move, and yes it does outrange everything mk has. Fair outranges most of mk's moves though; its why its one of the most important moves marth has in the mu.

Mk's 3rd ftilt outranges most of marth's moves.

 

[Mr-R]

Compared to his other strengths, Marth's ability to stop juggling is noticeably weaker than stuff like his range, spacing and kill power.

Well compared to 90 % of the cast marth is pretty good at getting out of juggles

Counter? That's extremely risky. If you call it wrong your getting punished hardcore D:

It's good when mk wants to catch ur landing with nado, usually u have enough time to respond to it so there's no risk involved, otherwise it IS somewhat risky I suppose.

 

[M@v]

...........Why are mk's trying to catch you with nado when your falling with time to react, especially if they start it early? There are much much safer options than that D=.
They deserve to get a counter to the face for trying something stupid like that >.<.

Mk should really only nado up close and preferably as a followup. Doing it any farther away is inviting the marth to stop it with counter or dolphin slashing it. If the marth knows what he's doing, Tornado is hard to use in this mu

 

[Le vieux lapin]

...........Why are mk's trying to catch you with nado when your falling with time to react, especially if they start it early? There are much much safer options than that D=.
They deserve to get a counter to the face for trying something stupid like that >.<.

Mk should really only nado up close and preferably as a followup. Doing it any farther away is inviting the marth to stop it with counter or dolphin slashing it. If the marth knows what he's doing, Tornado is hard to use in this mu

Most rookie Mks are overconfident because they use the
"best". And yeah, a good marth should be able to play
the space game with Mk, that is why they are kinda a close
MU.

 

[Judo777]

Hang on I was told that MK's ftilt out ranges ALL of marths options on the ground an most all of his aerials too (obv. the fact that ftilt hits low is important but still).

And marth has better option at getting juggled then like 90% of the cast as Mr R said. He has airspeed, long aerials that WIN if your opponrnt trys to hit you AND a way to not be vulnerable right when you hit the ground (via counter granted hes vulnerable after). Thats WAAAAAYYYYY better options than about 90% of the cast. Infact the only qualities Marth doesn't have that others do to prevent juggling would be additional jumps, Wario aerial acceleration and Bananas or Nades (which doesn't even matter with Snake cause he gets juggled way harder than marth)? Maybe a shine stall of wolf shine.

MK can literally laugh as he nados under you super early with like 60% of the cast and you are unable to do anything about it (he should angle it so you can't dair him). Or he can sit their and charge a dsmash outside ur range because you don't have a sword to swat him early. He can't even get into position to charge moves like that on marth because of his airspeed (which isn;t how you want to juggle marth obv. but other characters don;t get that luxury) and if he does try and trap ur landing you CAN counter if you knows hes gonna try and hit you. Its just another option but options are good.

 

[bassem6]

Hang on I was told that MK's ftilt out ranges ALL of marths options on the ground an most all of his aerials too (obv. the fact that ftilt hits low is important but still).

And marth has better option at getting juggled then like 90% of the cast as Mr R said. He has airspeed, long aerials that WIN if your opponrnt trys to hit you AND a way to not be vulnerable right when you hit the ground (via counter granted hes vulnerable after). Thats WAAAAAYYYYY better options than about 90% of the cast. Infact the only qualities Marth doesn't have that others do to prevent juggling would be additional jumps, Wario aerial acceleration and Bananas or Nades (which doesn't even matter with Snake cause he gets juggled way harder than marth)? Maybe a shine stall of wolf shine.

MK can literally laugh as he nados under you super early with like 60% of the cast and you are unable to do anything about it (he should angle it so you can't dair him). Or he can sit their and charge a dsmash outside ur range because you don't have a sword to swat him early. He can't even get into position to charge moves like that on marth because of his airspeed (which isn;t how you want to juggle marth obv. but other characters don;t get that luxury) and if he does try and trap ur landing you CAN counter if you knows hes gonna try and hit you. Its just another option but options are good.

I think what gives people (inlcluding me) the impression that marth can be easily juggled...or at least pressured in the air is the fact that his dair has so much landing lag/post move lag. Like if you jump at marth while hes in the air, he can basically either dair, counter or air-dodge, none of which are that great of an option since your opponent can react fairly easily to any of these and punish. Of course this is before he has the chance to b-reverse...or after he has just b reversed.

Im not saying Im right. This is just the impression that I personally get.

Edit:I wouldnt say he has better options than 90% of the cast. Wario, diddy kong, pikachu, yoshi, mk, falco, jigglypuff, kirby, zamus, g&w and TL are all characters who I would say are harder to juggle than marth.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Marth can definitely be juggled, but he is neither good nor bad at getting out of juggles.

 

[C.J.]

@ Judo- Shieldbreaker outranges MK's entire moveset. Marth's fsmash outranges all of MK's grounded moveset but ftilt3 and maybe dtilt (they trade iirc). Marth's dair outranges MK's uair, but MK can FF his uair to stay safe. Also, MK's utilt straight up beats Marth's dair. Marth's uair and bair both beat MK's dair cleanly. Marth's fair beats MK's entire ground game except ftilt3 (but that would require a huge commitment to) and GSL (technically nado too, but, idk if you'd consider that part of MK's "ground game").

As for Marth being juggled:
If you manage to stay directly underneath Marth, he's terrible @ getting out of juggles, like what bassem said. It's why someone juggling Marth should stay closer to the ground than just jumping at Marth randomly. If you do let Marth get moving horizontally, then juggling becomes a lot more difficult.

 

[B.A.M.]

^^^ This. marth definitely has options to get out of juggle and has some clean strengths in this match up. Marth's fair beats the majority MKs options , Marth is hard to juggle unless you have the aerial mobility to keep directly under him (or land camp). Honest to goodness if it wasnt for MKs gimp factor Marth would probably be closest thing to a MK counter. Everything else hes capable of dealing with quite reasonably.

Marths need to be on that Link main DI.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

"Marth's fair beats the majority MKs options"

I would've agreed with this if you said 'moves' instead of 'options', but as this sentence stands... No, just no.

 

[M@v]

Hang on I was told that MK's ftilt out ranges ALL of marths options on the ground an most all of his aerials too (obv. the fact that ftilt hits low is important but still).

Marth's only ground move that outranges the ftilt is his shield breaker. So mk still does out range pretty much everything.

@ Grim. I agree. Moves is more appropriate than options.

 

[AllyKnight]

Anybody can beat my MK with Marth, it's really easy. That said, just send EU players over here afaik, rain with all respect, got 7th at apex, then got ***** at genesis 17th. Beating one player doesnt mean World Class fightah. Can't wait to see all of EU play here, only one that really don't talk too much **** is RAMMMIIINNNN. Don't hate on Ramin, he mad cool.

 

[Judo777]

I think what gives people (inlcluding me) the impression that marth can be easily juggled...or at least pressured in the air is the fact that his dair has so much landing lag/post move lag. Like if you jump at marth while hes in the air, he can basically either dair, counter or air-dodge, none of which are that great of an option since your opponent can react fairly easily to any of these and punish. Of course this is before he has the chance to b-reverse...or after he has just b reversed.

Im not saying Im right. This is just the impression that I personally get.

Edit:I wouldnt say he has better options than 90% of the cast. Wario, diddy kong, pikachu, yoshi, mk, falco, jigglypuff, kirby, zamus, g&w and TL are all characters who I would say are harder to juggle than marth.

Agree with all of your list except maybe Zss, Falco and most importantly Yoshi. Yoshi gets juggled so hard once you learn how he works. If you know what ur doing you can make Yoshi take about 80% before hitting the ground. I'd like to point out tho every character you listed has one of those qualities I stated that really help (Pika technically has insane airspeed with QA, and TL might as well have a nade and banana mixed lol)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Can't wait to see all of EU play here, only one that really don't talk too much **** is RAMMMIIINNNN.

"...all of EU..."
"...only one is Ramin..."

Generalize less plz =(

 

[bassem6]

Agree with all of your list except maybe Zss, Falco and most importantly Yoshi. Yoshi gets juggled so hard once you learn how he works. If you know what ur doing you can make Yoshi take about 80% before hitting the ground. I'd like to point out tho every character you listed has one of those qualities I stated that really help (Pika technically has insane airspeed with QA, and TL might as well have a nade and banana mixed lol)

I said yoshi because he has INSANE airspeed plus super armor on his 2nd jump, and a move that allows him to zip straight down (down-b).

Falco because its a guessing game as to whether we will side-b to the other side of the stage, use dair (which has a long lasting hitbox that can hurt people w/o disjointed hitboxes trying to jump up at him) or airdodge.

Zss because she has decent airspeed and a 3rd jump that shifts her horizontally by a good amount AND gives her a super lingering hitbox aimed at her opponent.

I just feel like they have more options and are harder to predict than marth who will most likely either airdodge or dair.

 

[Judo777]

I said yoshi because he has INSANE airspeed plus super armor on his 2nd jump, and a move that allows him to zip straight down (down-b).

Falco because its a guessing game as to whether we will side-b to the other side of the stage, use dair (which has a long lasting hitbox that can hurt people w/o disjointed hitboxes trying to jump up at him) or airdodge.

Zss because she has decent airspeed and a 3rd jump that shifts her horizontally by a good amount AND gives her a super lingering hitbox aimed at her opponent.

I just feel like they have more options and are harder to predict than marth who will most likely either airdodge or dair.

Ooooh forgot about flip kick with Zss I'll retract that one but Falco..... I'm on the fence.

As for yoshi his double jump just puts him much higher in the air without that option anymore if he uses it and the only way to not get the height is to use a really laggy B move (like down B or egglay). Even if he manages to super armor a hit he just took damage and is still being juggled. I'm telling you yoshi gets juggled harder.

 

[Kuro~]

Marths don't get gimped THAT often. He's at least harder than snake/diddy to gimp.

inb4hazevsrain

That isn't a reliable counter example compared to the plenty of matches where it doesn't happen till way later %.

 

[OverLade]

So grave with your post lol. This is only true if the mk knows how to play every (reasonable) MU perfectly. There are so many mks that most everybody knows how to play optimally against him with their character. However, not every mk knows what to do in certain MU's. And there isnt a single mk user (not even m2k) that does.

Thus there's some semblance of hope

It's hillarious to me, because top MKs being bad at matchups is the only reason MK wasn't banned ages ago. But most people don't realize that these MK players have never invested time into really learning matchups because they've always been dominating their regions anyway so they've never felt that they had to.

Well, MK doesn't really have any even matchups, so I can only assume you think vs is -2 for Wolf or worse.

Have you even played any good Wolf mains?

Edit: Or maybe I'm wrong and you think it's even, but that definitely shouldn't be the case.

MK beats wolf solidly. SMH what are you trying to argue?

G^W scary for MK because MK players not patient enough overall. Camping him with the lead is very strong, same with vs Wario. But people too busy trying to beat him out with Fair and ****

Real talk. Shoutout to Pwii for somehow beating Vinnie where me and Seibrik didn't know what was going on.

Marths don't get gimped THAT often. He's at least harder than snake/diddy to gimp.

inb4hazevsrain

That isn't a reliable counter example compared to the plenty of matches where it doesn't happen till way later %.

The difference is that getting gimped is far more devastating for marth than it is for Diddy and Snake. Diddy and Snake can camp and actually have the potential to come back, whearas Marth has no way to force MK to approach. The matchup becomes 10 times worse when MK is ahead by a stock and just baiting you...

 

[Kuro~]

Ya ik. The mu becomes infinitely worse if you lose first stock. But other than that on neutrals it's pretty damn close imo.

Cuz if marth loses first stock it basically becomes RPS in which mk can cover 2 out of 3 at once.

 

[Vinnie]

Real talk. Shoutout to Pwii for somehow beating Vinnie where me and Seibrik didn't know what was going on.

He hasn't beaten my g&w since before I went to Florida. He has beaten my ICs and Wario.

/namesearch

 

[Deleted member]

@Redhalberd, He definitely beats Wolf, but it's only -1. You're acting like it's worse when the reality is that Wolf is a lot safer in the air vs MK than most of the cast due to shine giving him a safer landing option, as well as good keep-away aerials like bair and plenty of killing options. His ground game against him isn't bad either.

Wolf only has to worry offstage, but so does everyone against this bat.

 

[M@v]

Uh, I can't see how Wolf does as good as the other 2 spacies against mk. Imo the order of how well they do is Falco, then Fox, then Wolf.


Fox has an event faster shine, and they best recovery out of all 3 spacies, so he has the least chance of getting gimped. And fox is still -1 vs mk. Meanwhile Wolf has THE worst recovery of all 3 spacies hands down. He will be getting back a lot less than Fox, and still won't be making it back as often as falco.

Let's not forget compared to fox and falco, wolf has a harder time forcing mk to approach since his lasers are way worse for that job.