Metaknights' Even matchups? Open discussion

[M@v]

I took pwii to last hit one game fox vs mk, but I credit that to me playing differently than you. Also it felt a lot harder fighting him than a lot of mks I do since he plays you a good amount, so he knows what to do.

It just feels like, especially compared to falco, mk just shreads through most of fox's options up close. Shine is pretty awesome in this mu (shoutout to the invulnerability frames for bailing my *** out of a lot of stuff), and upsmash as it is in like every mu, but it seems to me all of fox's aerials get shut down so hard vs mk D:

 

[napZzz]

any character that has a chance vs. mk is usually on some kinda neutral or specific stage, but between banning/the cp system it just doesn't matter

uphill battles all day

 

[B.A.M.]

^^^^^ straight up. Thats what it comes to

 

[OverLade]

3 of the 4 best Snakes got timed out by Tearbear and lost. That **** is like 65/35...

 

[Flayl]

3 of the 4 best Snakes got timed out by Tearbear and lost. That **** is like 65/35...

Was it on Rainbow Cruise only or other stages too?

 

[OverLade]

MK gets 1 free win per set, but Tearbear had to have won at least 2 matches per set on neutrals or Snake CPs. I'm not saying all of his wins were timeouts but I know he beat Hrnut and MVD by timing them out. If Razer lost too it's likely the same case since he's the best against MK out of all 3 of them.

 

[BlueXenon]

I think Pikachu has an advantage over metaknight.

 

[Tesh]

Apparently not. If the only top Pika won't use him against the best MK. Then again I was hoping more to see TKD vs M2K finally.

 

[DMG]

MK gets 1 free win per set, but Tearbear had to have won at least 2 matches per set on neutrals or Snake CPs. I'm not saying all of his wins were timeouts but I know he beat Hrnut and MVD by timing them out. If Razer lost too it's likely the same case since he's the best against MK out of all 3 of them.

Eh, Razer could have lost by being gimped to death a ton. Him vs Seibrik for example: Seibrik didn't time him out, just got reads at low % offstage that lead into a long offstage chain into death.

 

[Flayl]

How many of the time outs were on Rainbow Cruise?

 

[UltimateRazer]

MK gets 1 free win per set, but Tearbear had to have won at least 2 matches per set on neutrals or Snake CPs. I'm not saying all of his wins were timeouts but I know he beat Hrnut and MVD by timing them out. If Razer lost too it's likely the same case since he's the best against MK out of all 3 of them.

Tbh, it was my fault that I lost. I won game 1 quite solidly. Game 2 on RC, I could of won when he was at 100% + but I SD. Game 3, I could of won, but pokemon stadium ***** me...literally took 2 of my stocks away including the last one. Although, I could tell he was going for the time out game 3. He was air camping the platform the whole game until I was able to get the lead.

 

[2-DJeff]

MK vs MK, whoever's the better player will win. That's it.

The better mk player with a combination of who has more knowledge of mks attacks not better play over all. (If that's what you meant. I'm just reading up on somethings!
You mean better mk by knowledge of his frames data of attacks and what punishes what right?

 

[Flayl]

That's a part of being the better player...

I take it nobody can answer my question until vids are uploaded?

 

[2-DJeff]

Knowing frame data better than your opponent specifically for one character out of the many characters in the game dose not make you better overall. Maybe better at that mu but not always a better overall player. Idk if you get what I'm trying to say.

 

[Exdeath]

Frame data [in Smash] is not a direct tool toward victory, but rather a base for creativity. You can do just fine without knowing frame data, but questions such as "I wonder what I can punish that with" are ultimately best answered with frame data as a backbone so that you know all of your options, how large your window of opportunity is, etc.

 

[Flayl]

Knowing what punishes what doesn't mean memorizing frame data. It's completely possible to find out through experience or doing what Xdeath said.

Your post is really confusing 2-djeff, but my point was knowing what punishes what is just a part of possibly being the better player. There's a lot more stuff that goes into it. Reaction time, quick decision-making, picking up opponent's habits, DI/SDI etc.

 

[2-DJeff]

Let me be more specific. Knowing what punishes what in a mk ditto dose not make you a overall better player.

 

[SAX]

I think I get what Jeff is trying to say.

Lets say that redhalberd uses Metaknight and faces ESAM's Metaknight.
Redhalberd wins the ditto.
But ESAM doesn't main metaknight, but he can beat halberd with his pikachu. So just because he loses the mk ditto doesn't mean that halberd is necessarily the better player. He is just the better Metaknight USER.

That's what I got out of it

 

[2-DJeff]

This is one example ^^^
Thx nick

 

[Judo777]

I think I get what Jeff is trying to say.

Lets say that redhalberd uses Metaknight and faces ESAM's Metaknight.
Redhalberd wins the ditto.
But ESAM doesn't main metaknight, but he can beat halberd with his pikachu. So just because he loses the mk ditto doesn't mean that halberd is necessarily the better player. He is just the better Metaknight USER.

That's what I got out of it

This example is also likely because MK vs Pika MU is not even lol

 

[BSP]

Diddy and Falco

Still even at this point?

 

[2-DJeff]

Nah diddy isn't even and falco eh like a 45:55. Imo
And the mk vs pika is really not even. Mk clearly has the tools to show that he definitely has the advantage.

 

[Kuro~]

Mk has no even matchups.

mk vs mk is 100:0 in shuttle loops favor.

 

[OverLade]

Actually MK is the only character that beats shuttle loop 60:40.

 

[B.A.M.]

^^^^^^ this.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Actually MK is the only character that beats shuttle loop 60:40.

Diddy's flip kick trades hits with it

 

[OverLade]

Lots of moves trade with it, and then you die off the side while MK takes 12%...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Lots of moves trade with it, and then you die off the side while MK takes 12%...

Don't **** with shuttle loop. People often do and they pay the price

 

[B.A.M.]

Spring all day! RedHalberd, teach me the ways of video analysis lol.

 

[M@v]

Actually MK is the only character that beats shuttle loop 60:40.

Mk dittos: first to shuttle loop loses

 

[Djent]

I don't know much about match-up specifics, but I can say this:

Finding ways to counter each of :metaknightbrawl:'s options isn't the hard part, it's finding moves that can reliably cover as many of :metaknightbrawl:'s options as he can cover other characters' options. This is why IMHO we'll never see a character that truly goes even with :metaknightbrawl:, though many will come close.

You can have answers to everything your opponent does, and still be playing a losing matchup if your opponent can cover more options at once than you can. I feel like this is the scenario we're at with :metaknightbrawl: and I don't see that changing, for better or worse.

 

[B.A.M.]

Bingo. This is the reason why MK is so good. Heck in fact this same principle is why Sonic looks bad on paper but is a solid character. Except the myriad of sonics options arent that good even though they could cover a ton of scenarios.

MK has so much tools, that once he gets in its so easy to rack up damage/gimp/ or out right kill. You are automatically limited by playing vs a MK because his options shut down a ton of yours. So usually you have to play a certain way to battle MK. Which means you become damn predictable and he gets to read a kindergarten book while having an IQ of 150.

However I will say this, I do believe there are some characters that may have a chance at making MK an even matchup or at least 55-45 overall. I think that people have to start thinking in this mindset though. I think as stated above, a ton people believe all you have to do is have an answer for this and for that and you are good. You have to realize a character with that speed you cant really react to his options. You need to have an answer that thwarts that entire scenario.

 

[Judo777]

Its not just that he has options to cover yours its also that his moves are so fast and long that even when he guesses wrong he can react to HIS OWN MISTAKE and still hit you. If he dthrows you and you DI toward him and he goes to uair you and misses he then can hit you with nair after he SEES that he missed.

I think this is a humongous factor, not only does he have options like charging fsmash at the ledge which covers almost ALL of some characters getup options (he just as to release at the right time). But he has lots of scenarios where even if he guesses wrong he can still hit you afterward. Miss a shuttle loop? thats ok if the spacing is right ou can hit them with glide attack which is waaaaayyyyy too strong lol.

he also just has a lot of ways of getting out of mistakes that would otherwise be a stock on most characters. If he accidentally side B's in mid match if hes good he can cancel that on the ledge and make it safe. This is true for most of his B moves. If he whiffs a SL, depending on where you are, you don't get a free punish, you get to play rocks papaer scissors one more time and then you get a punish. Is he gonna glide attack early or late? Is he gonna not glide attack at all and jump drop instead? How far is he gonna glide?

This kinda of stuff is a really big deal in fighting games. Having t win rock paper scissors TWICE is a big deal when he only has to do it once, and even if you win it twice you don;t get THAT big of a punish, MAYBE a smash if you read it well. he almost always gets a SL or a nair for ur mistakes (btw nair does 21% if all 3 hits land).

 

[B.A.M.]

Judo.....I do believe that is something one should equate into an option. I do. Cool down is a huge factor in an option because what if they opponent does nothing. or retreats? MK is never missing, due to the nature of a myriad of his options frame trapping. Thats part of the way his options cover a ton of other options. We are discussing the same thing bro. You are just talking in detail about one of the aspects.

Nair is such a BS move dude. Noone should be doing 21% off a versatile single hit confirm OoS like that

 

[OverLade]

Its not just that he has options to cover yours its also that his moves are so fast and long that even when he guesses wrong he can react to HIS OWN MISTAKE and still hit you. If he dthrows you and you DI toward him and he goes to uair you and misses he then can hit you with nair after he SEES that he missed.

I think this is a humongous factor, not only does he have options like charging fsmash at the ledge which covers almost ALL of some characters getup options (he just as to release at the right time). But he has lots of scenarios where even if he guesses wrong he can still hit you afterward. Miss a shuttle loop? thats ok if the spacing is right ou can hit them with glide attack which is waaaaayyyyy too strong lol.

he also just has a lot of ways of getting out of mistakes that would otherwise be a stock on most characters. If he accidentally side B's in mid match if hes good he can cancel that on the ledge and make it safe. This is true for most of his B moves. If he whiffs a SL, depending on where you are, you don't get a free punish, you get to play rocks papaer scissors one more time and then you get a punish. Is he gonna glide attack early or late? Is he gonna not glide attack at all and jump drop instead? How far is he gonna glide?

This kinda of stuff is a really big deal in fighting games. Having t win rock paper scissors TWICE is a big deal when he only has to do it once, and even if you win it twice you don;t get THAT big of a punish, MAYBE a smash if you read it well. he almost always gets a SL or a nair for ur mistakes (btw nair does 21% if all 3 hits land).

Exactly Judo. Many situations are basically option select. There are a lot of top Metaknights who don't even use option select frame traps but that's truly what makes Metaknight so ridiculously good.

There are so many situations that you don't have to go for the perfect damage option, just the safest option. He even has defensive options that are completely safe. For example, on BF, if I'm on a platform and my opponent is under me, I can mindlessly shuttle loop at any time (shuttle loop has a ridiculous hitbox under MK) and I will always make it to the platform before my opponent can react to jump up and hit me. Upair option selects if your opponent airdodges as long as you follow up with the right move, shuttle loop option selects in the air, and you have the option of option selecting on the ground against an opponent in the air if you react fast enough. Even tornado is completely safe against some characters if you hitconfirm whether you hit their shield or not.

This is the main thin that bothers me about MK. He's forgiving to even players who initially make bad decisions because he's so difficult or unsafe to punish, that you can correct your mistake even after you've made it and still get a punish out of it.

 

[Toneh]

I like how red is mixing in SF/marvel terms now

 

[OverLade]

Metaknight is SO PRINGLES, HE CAN SELF OTG INTO LEVEL 3. BROKEN.

Scoops.

 

[B.A.M.]

well thats not the proper usage of option select. I would be more inclined to call them frame traps. Although some maybe like uair>dair/nair would be one? seeing as you can put in the uair and then a dair/nair, then if uair hits due to the hitstun the buffered dair/nair wont be accepted if it misses it registers the dair/nair. However, the point still remains; MK has too many strong options. its so wack

 

[Flayl]

MK being Pringles would mean he fails to block combo starters. That would be a good thing

 

[Vex Kasrani]

GnW can cover most of MK's options, but MK covers ALL of GnW's options, which is why he gets ***** when MK has % lead :/