Metaknights' Even matchups? Open discussion

[Juushichi]

And so today I learned that DMG just ***** people with no lube sometimes.

 

[OverLade]

"You beat MK by powershielding his attacks and punishing OOS with your fastest aerial"

Those are my favorites.

Shoutout to iSpamtoliethumor for lurking.

edit:
DMG *****. He stopped taking brawl seriously to come to theory boards and take names.

 

[Deleted member]

And so today I learned that DMG just ***** people with no lube sometimes.

And he makes it a pleasure to watch.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

uhhhh...let's not let this go any further ok?

 

[DMG]

How much further can you go past ****?



































Edit: Ok. Srs note, sure. Although I wouldn't mind if he came and stated why he though I was wrong instead of sarcastically calling me a God.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

How much further can you go past ****?



































Edit: Ok. Srs note, sure. Although I wouldn't mind if he came and stated why he though I was wrong instead of sarcastically calling me a God.

WHY r YOU MY SON!

 

[Deleted member]

Sorry Ryu. Just playful banter. :3

 

[SaveMeJebus]

DMG, You seem to forget that Fox has the better win/loss ratio against MK than any other character in the last two years. Even characters that supposedly go even with MK don't have as good of a win/loss ratio as fox does.

 

[Conviction]

I got M2K down to last stock with Fox... POINT?

The obvious skill gap between me and him. It should say something. Back to your main point though, you asked me what top MKs have I played. If you don't count Kismet then M2K is the only one.

DMG, You seem to forget that Fox has the better win/loss ratio against MK than any other character in the last two years. Even characters that supposedly go even with MK don't have as good of a win/loss ratio as fox does.

Who are you and what have you done with Jebus?

 

[Flayl]

DMG, You seem to forget that Fox has the better win/loss ratio against MK than any other character in the last two years. Even characters that supposedly go even with MK don't have as good of a win/loss ratio as fox does.

I'm curious, how do you know this?

 

[Cassio]

2. I don't claim to know everything, but it doesn't seem like it takes a genius to objectively look at Fox vs MK and determine "Ok, Fox has some solid defensive tools. These tools easily keep him in contention vs MK. However, it's noticeably easier to chase Fox down and hit him with faster, longer ranged moves while he tries to get past you to gain more space and continue camping, than it is for Fox to continually camp and cross past MK when he gets close.

Eh, this is sort of the problem. I know you like to breakdown MUs with camping as the optimal play, but realistically this isnt going to happen. I mean yes mobility is important for being able to run away or avoid being hit, but more importantly Fox can punish attacks that dont connect extremely well. MK is a great character but approaching he cant cover all options at once. Usually he has a lot of freedom because even though he cant cover all options, hes generally safe from punishment so he can just try again later, but against fox his freedom is much more limited.

 

[DMG]

His freedom vs Fox is not limited very much if Fox goes into the air. Fox's strengths are being on the ground while MK is in the air, and being fast enough to accomplish running away to shoot lasers (along with being able to fluidly dash and punish when needed). The instant Fox leaves the ground, he gives up a lot of that.

Fox runs to left side of the stage. Shoots lasers at MK. MK approaches obviously. Now, once MK starts getting close, what are Fox's options?

He can't keep lasering obviously. There's not enough space between the two of you to do so safely.

You can try to fight MK 1 v 1 on the ground. Not the easiest thing in the world to do.

You can try to SH aerial at MK, or SH at him and wait for a response and try to airdodge or something else. Not the scariest thing in the world to face, but it's there.

You can try to get past MK on the ground, and run to the other side to keep lasering. Good luck getting past Tilts, Smashes, shield grab, hell even Tornado lol.


You can try to go airborne and outmaneuver past MK to platforms or towards the other side of the stage. THIS strategy is what people tend to cite as "good" for Fox. Laser Laser, MK gets close, Ok fine jump DJ Fair/DJ and wait for MK to do something. This strategy of I guess tricking the other player or making him guess to try and stop you. Which, if Fox were a very mobile character horizontally, would actually be fairly solid. But Fox doesn't have that. What he has is a lot of vertical flexibility. Vertical flexibility is fine in certain areas, but when your goal is to try and gain some space against MK, horizontal space (one side of the stage to the other ideally), then vertical movement doesn't really help you accomplish that unless you can REALLY achieve a height that the other character cannot reach and use that to your advantage. But that's not the case here. MK isn't a character who sucks at covering vertical range. Hell this is THE guy with shuttle loop and multiple jumps. Even if MK could not possibly hope to cover the distance, he spaces well enough and is mobile enough horizontally that he can trap areas Fox would have to land or trap him while he's still airborne.


Fox can't go toe to toe with MK 1 v 1. That's obvious. The character's best strategy is to shoot a projectile over and over repeatedly while keeping his distance from MK, punishing mistakes here and there with quick hits while backing off and going back to the lasers, and then getting the Usmash for the kill. The strategy of shooting lasers could be VERY powerful IF he had a reliable way to extend how long he can do it. If he had a Falco Phantasm or a quick DACUS to get past him on the ground... if he had noticeable aerial range or horizontal mobility he could tell MK **** off you can't catch me... but he doesn't have tools that are "breathers" so to speak. He has stuff to make MK approach, but he DOESN'T have stuff to run from MK consistently to keep placing himself in that good position of being able to laser and make him approach. Because of that, once MK closes the gap and is breathing down his neck, Fox starts to have problems. Enough problems that you can't just look at the stuff he does good and say "This is good enough to go even".


The funny thing about this, is that it's much harder for Fox to get around MK than it is for MK to stop him. If things were "optimal" or if I was talking about optimal, Fox would be forcing MK to guess at every turn and having a 50-50 shot at being completely safe. But if we're not talking about optimal play, do you know how badly a random shuttle loop will **** up a Fox who goes to DJ to a platform/DJ to gain space away from MK and now he's offstage? It's a LOT easier to throw out X MK move and be safe than it is to be Fox and punish X move or be Fox and escape from MK. I have to worry whether you will Nair, Dair, Shine stall, Fastfall airdodge, etc... but YOU have to worry about Nair Uair Shuttle Loop Tornado Tilt Smash Fair etc. I'll take being MK and throwing out stuff in positions that 95% of the time you probably can't punish, than hope to be Fox and have MK **** up and go Usmash him.


MK can't cover every option every time. But the beauty of it is that you have to guess first. You as Fox have to make the decision to Shine stall, to fast fall, to wait and try an aerial, etc. MK doesn't have to shuttle loop and then you make your move. If you are the one running away past the laser point, your actions come first, which limits your ability to be as safe as you could be since you have to commit earlier than the other guy.

 

[OverLade]

Eh, this is sort of the problem. I know you like to breakdown MUs with camping as the optimal play, but realistically this isnt going to happen. I mean yes mobility is important for being able to run away or avoid being hit, but more importantly Fox can punish attacks that dont connect extremely well. MK is a great character but approaching he cant cover all options at once. Usually he has a lot of freedom because even though he cant cover all options, hes generally safe from punishment so he can just try again later, but against fox his freedom is much more limited.

Same goes for Fox. The fox player has to actually go for stuff. MK has so many ways to beat Foxes approach it's just the matter of reacting to the speed of mixups that makes the matchup winnable for fox.

DMG, You seem to forget that Fox has the better win/loss ratio against MK than any other character in the last two years. Even characters that supposedly go even with MK don't have as good of a win/loss ratio as fox does.

Data on this?

Anyway you have to keep in mind, DMG is not trying to say that MK ***** fox. He's merely saying that MK is inherently a much better character, and by equal execution of players wins the matchup simply due to range, priority, and pressure ability. MK is better on the ground, and technically has the way to negate any of Fox's air approaches as long as he reacts accordingly. Here is where MK has the option to win where fox has to guess to an extent whether his opponent will react.

 

[Blacknight99923]

fox -mk

whoever the better player is will win!

 

[OverLade]

MK vs MK, whoever's the better player will win. That's it.

 

[Cassio]

RedHalberd vs Cassio, whoever's the better player will win. Hype.

His freedom vs Fox is not limited very much if Fox goes into the air.

Given, same with most of your post as well. Sorry to agree.

Fox runs to left side of the stage. Shoots lasers at MK. MK approaches obviously. Now, once MK starts getting close, what are Fox's options?

I think its more important to look at MK's options since MK is going to be the one pressured into attacking. The problem is at close range if MK commits to an attack and it doesnt hit, unlike virtually the entire rest of the cast Fox has a very good shot at punishing.

Same goes for Fox. The fox player has to actually go for stuff. MK has so many ways to beat Foxes approach it's just the matter of reacting to the speed of mixups that makes the matchup winnable for fox.

Somewhat agree. Fox doesnt really have to take the initiative on anything, he's happy to laser camp all day. tbh I think if it werent for MKs edgeguarding and gimping ability this MU would be close though easily distinguishable as Fox's favor. h/o theyre pretty important factors to ignore, rofl.

 

[OverLade]

As DMG explains earlier, fox doesnt have real ability to play footsies. Up close MK beats him, his game revolves around pulling away and jumping to punish MK or dash shielding/dash grabbing (neither are really safe). If you watch TKD vs tyrant, there are large spaces of time when TKD can't hit tyrant, because he can only punish him if he commits to certain things. Watch delfino match 4 from their latest set. If fox runs away, he can only laser, not force MKs hand when he gets close.

 

[Cassio]

I dont think were really disagreeing on those points. If both are standing next to each other in the neutral position I agree MK has the advantage. Although I would add that the options you mentioned arent anymore unsafe than anyone else throwing out random approaches. The idea is that Fox doesnt spend much time approaching, instead hes great at causing MK to "commit to those certain things" and then punishing them. Also MK cant just stand there and wait to react to whatever fox does, his dash and walk speed are way to fast to be reasonably reacted to at close distance. To an extent this also puts pressure on MK if Fox does choose to approach, although I wont elaborate on that now.

And I actually just rewatched that match earlier today. Although I agree approaching MK is a pain, part of it was half of delfino being gay to approach MK and TKD waiting for a better opportunity, and another part was that TKD had the lead the whole match so really didnt need to commit to approaches.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DMG, I don't think you're a pretentious person. I just think you underrate your ability to be wrong by a lot and don't give other people's ideas enough credit once you disagree with them.

In other words: the same know-it-all as I am. Just with a purple name.

Edit: And that I actually still play this game / go to tourneys.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What DMG is saying makes a lot more sense than what you are saying imo.

 

[Conviction]

because what he is saying has been the status quo in beginning of brawl?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Because he satisifies your [pro-ban] sentiments a lot more, that's why.

 

[Conviction]

LOL idk if you are talking to me Gheb but I'm pro-ban and we've been agreeing. I'll keep the pro-ban thing there as that as I don't want this to change to why isn't MK banned.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@Gheb: Touche

But nah, anyone who knows me from the stage boards would probably say I'm one of the least biased people ever lol. I agree with DMG because his reasoning about Fox having to get to the other side of the stage makes a lot of sense given the options of both characters.

 

[Conviction]

Note to self:

New thing on to do list besides get ***** by Billy
Get a vid vs. a noteable MK.

/end note

Red, you wouldn't happen to be coming to GA anytime soon would you?

 

[M@v]

Oh wait, I've never seen that post Redhably made. I've actually played M2K a couple of times while he was in GA and I guess Kismet if you want to count him. LOL, M@v you did worse than I did then. I put up a fight. 1 match I got him last stock. Biggest accomplishment yet.

I got him down to 1 stock twice, once with mk and once with falco, but not fox :3

Freakin' steamrolled my fox.

 

[Conviction]

I learned after the 2nd match don't apply any ledge pressure what-so-ever and stay a dodge roll's length away from the ledge. It stopped that stupid ledge BS he was doing.

 

[OverLade]

I dont think were really disagreeing on those points. If both are standing next to each other in the neutral position I agree MK has the advantage. Although I would add that the options you mentioned arent anymore unsafe than anyone else throwing out random approaches. The idea is that Fox doesnt spend much time approaching, instead hes great at causing MK to "commit to those certain things" and then punishing them. Also MK cant just stand there and wait to react to whatever fox does, his dash and walk speed are way to fast to be reasonably reacted to at close distance. To an extent this also puts pressure on MK if Fox does choose to approach, although I wont elaborate on that now.

And I actually just rewatched that match earlier today. Although I agree approaching MK is a pain, part of it was half of delfino being gay to approach MK and TKD waiting for a better opportunity, and another part was that TKD had the lead the whole match so really didnt need to commit to approaches.

The thing is that Fox actually doesn't force MK to commit to certain things. MK can play a poke game that's pretty safe. Not committing means he'll take laser damage, but he has good enough options to try and catch fox doing something too close without commit to a lot. Obviously fox CAN punish him, but MK is a character who doesn't really commit when he does anything. When MK throws out a Ftilt, he's not commiting to anything. Framewise Ftilt has a mixup to beat anything, and it takes godlike reaction to just run in and powershield any of the hits to get a grab. MK can just stay near fox and camp tilts. In this situation, Fox has to a take a risk, because even short hop lasering at close range vs MK is a huge commitment. Fox definitely commits to a lot more in this matchup than MK does, the lasers just entice MK players to be less patient.

Red, you wouldn't happen to be coming to GA anytime soon would you?

Come to FL.

 

[Conviction]

If BigLou or Chima goes I'll go with.

 

[Cassio]

The thing is that Fox actually doesn't force MK to commit to certain things. MK can play a poke game that's pretty safe. Not committing means he'll take laser damage, but he has good enough options to try and catch fox doing something too close without commit to a lot. Obviously fox CAN punish him, but MK is a character who doesn't really commit when he does anything. When MK throws out a Ftilt, he's not commiting to anything. Framewise Ftilt has a mixup to beat anything, and it takes godlike reaction to just run in and powershield any of the hits to get a grab. MK can just stay near fox and camp tilts. In this situation, Fox has to a take a risk, because even short hop lasering at close range vs MK is a huge commitment. Fox definitely commits to a lot more in this matchup than MK does, the lasers just entice MK players to be less patient.

Force isnt a word I would use, he just causes the situation to occur often enough. And I dont doubt that MK can play so safe with tilts that hes either too close (and catches a shield) or too far to be punished, but at that point hes playing so safe fox can just escape or not approacch and add laser damage. Then again Ive never really seen an MK camp Fox with tilts and disregard laser damage, the strategy seems too simple to have no been tried though. And if it hasnt been tried Ill believe it works when I see it .

 

[OverLade]

You obviously don't JUST camp tilts, you stay close enough to fox isn't able to focus on lasering you, but avoid JUST rushing him. You obviously go for dashgrabs and dash attacks in places that you think it's a good read, but the tilts stop fox from coming in easily. If he jumps over you, you pull back and fair/uair OOS as you retreat etc. This is a strategy you can't do the entire match because it gets too predictable, you alternate between making your opponent think you're being passive and being aggressive. Tyrant plays the matchup like this for the most part. But he's a pretty aggressive player in general, so he tends to go for more reward with his punishes.

 

[Cassio]

eh, that just sounds like a MU dependent on reads. The DA, DG, fair and uair can (and have) connect or backfire and be punished. I know you've said fox takes more risks trying to approach MK and I agree, but its still risky for MK to try and approach and in this MU MK is generally the one approaching.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...But it's more risky for Fox, which is why it isn't even.

 

[Cassio]

Virtually every character that does well vs MK pressures him to approach, helping to negate the risk of approaching MK themselves. A lot of MUs that would otherwise be even or work against MK are not because of his ability to rack up damage and kill early with combos/pseudo combos, gimps, edge guards, and a wealth of kill options.

 

[OverLade]

...But it's more risky for Fox, which is why it isn't even.

REAL TALK. There's this thing called risk reward. When you put away the frame data and the priority and the range of attacks, MK still has better risk reward against ANY character in the game. Ice Climbers are the ONLY character that could possibly have better risk reward ratios and that's not by much given that Nana can be killed etc.

Virtually every character that does well vs MK pressures him to approach, helping to negate the risk of approaching MK themselves. A lot of MUs that would otherwise be even or work against MK are not because of his ability to rack up damage and kill early with combos/pseudo combos, gimps, edge guards, and a wealth of kill options.

Now you're just spouting stuff instead of talking about anything concrete.

But I bet you don't know exactly why and how Falco/Snake/Diddy/ICs/Olimar/Yoshi/Fox go close with MK. Pressuring MK to approach isn't important if MK has no trouble getting in. That's not just it...

 

[Cassio]

lol, yeah the second sentence of that post was bad. I was going to change it but decided not to bother. At your post before last we came to a fundamental disagreement on how much risk MK puts himself in to assertively connect hits and how often the situation occurs, so arguing from now on would just circle that. tbh 'having no trouble getting in' is not something I see reflected in high level matches so I have a hard time seeing eye to eye on your opinion.

Also, I got a sense for your reasonings on why those characters do well based on what you posted earlier in the thread I just don't agree, which is probably why I don't agree with your list either. h/o If you want to expand feel free.

 

[DMG]

Because he satisifies your [pro-ban] sentiments a lot more, that's why.

What about the people who are Anti Ban, who would agree with me that Fox simply does not go even with MK? I mean, if I really made this a pro ban biased rant, why would I go through the trouble of actually discussing BOTH character's tools when I could just say MK invalidates them all for being MK?



But no, I went through the trouble of discussing what Fox does at closer ranges vs MK, why I think the laser strategy is solid until Fox runs out of room (this coming from a WARIO Main who's used to dancing circles around people), and why I think Fox doesn't go even with MK although he has a solid MU vs him, and apparently none of it matters and I'm pro ban biased in my thinking that MK wins the MU? Well ****, I wish character MU debates were so simple for 1 side to win that the only thing it takes is "Your biased, GG". If I had known that was the legitimate way of convincing people why I'm right, or at least that I'm not crazy, hell I would have done that from day 1. You anti ban piece of ****. See, now MK wins the MU.


Let's go over the details:

1. Player consensus on this MU is NOT solidified. From Fox mains or MK mains that play it the most. Your statement that I ignore what top players think about this MU is incorrect, since even they aren't clear on how they feel.


2. Fox vs MK sets do not consistently swing one way or the other. There are other details that are hard to correctly factor in when evaluating sets. Such as people who CP to MK against Fox for their CP stage, or when Fox mains switch from Fox to another character on the MK CP but end up winning the set. However, the sets are back and forth enough that it's not unreasonable to assume that at the very least, Fox does not get hard countered by MK (there is nothing supporting that at all.)


3. I'm pretty realistic when it comes to MK's MU's. I'm not gonna sugar coat a MU and say "Oh yeah MK vs Wario is only 55:45" because of "Well if you play better than the other guy or get that clutch fart at 60% and he DI's bad he dies" kind of stuff. I'm also not gonna say MK vs Marth is a hard counter against Marth or that Snake cannot possibly win against MK because he sucks **** the instant he is thrown into the air. Or that MK counters characters harder than their well known hard counters (MK vs Ness instead of Marth, Dedede vs DK if he can infinite, IC's vs certain characters, etc). If I am the definition of biased, then good luck having any reasonable discussion with... 90% of the smash community because they would look impossible to convince otherwise biased compared to me.


4. I don't think I overrate MK. Most of the time when I talk about him, I'm trying to keep other people honest about their character's options against him. If you wanna say Laser camping is good vs MK, I'm down with that. It's true. But, if you wanna say you can reliably Laser camp one side of the stage, and find a way to get MK away from you (either by knocking him away or crossing past him or whatever it takes) so that you can KEEP laser camping and exploiting that advantage... then I'm gonna call you out and hopefully explain that while your character is great at laser camping MK, he does not excel at keeping his distance or making room to stay away from MK over and over and OVER throughout the course of a match to abuse that laser camping advantage to the fullest. I focus more on that kind of stuff instead of "Yeah MK is the ****, don't even bother"

@Gheb: Touche

But nah, anyone who knows me from the stage boards would probably say I'm one of the least biased people ever lol. I agree with DMG because his reasoning about Fox having to get to the other side of the stage makes a lot of sense given the options of both characters.

Nope. You biased, your name is gloomy.

DMG, I don't think you're a pretentious person. I just think you underrate your ability to be wrong by a lot and don't give other people's ideas enough credit once you disagree with them.

In other words: the same know-it-all as I am. Just with a purple name.

Edit: And that I actually still play this game / go to tourneys.

Well, what claims of mine are wildly baseless and super far off target?


Remember when FOW took 3rd at WGF? Remember when people ACTUALLY argued that Ness went even with MK? I took the position that MK still beat Ness. Does that make me Pro Ban Biased, completely ignoring FOW beating Tyrant and others? No. It makes me a person not afraid to use my own head and come to my own conclusions without coming to rapid stances. Remember when Atomsk argued that Dedede went even with MK? Hell he was the inventor of that MU for the Dedede side for awhile, he played that MU over and over in tournament, he knew it better than I did. And yet I didn't buckle into it and say "I know nothing, I'm going to accept what this man has said and assume it's right".


I would give people's ideas and thoughts credit if I thought they were thinking for themselves instead of looking at recent set between 2 players and assuming that's the MU, or RELIGIOUSLY following what a player has said as if his words are the gospel. The people who said MK goes even with Ness after WGF for example. People that DIDN'T even have the chance to watch the set or talk to the players or see what was going on, INSTANTLY changed how they felt after looking at the bracket and seeing FOW 3rd. Those kind of people make me sick. If they said "Hey Ness may go even with MK, I saw this stuff FOW did to MK players and it looked Solid and these tools look competent. This MU looks pretty good after seeing that", it would be different. But if you say Ness now goes with MK because of how that tournament went, I'm gonna call you stupid. Simple as it gets.


But no. More than half the time, it's people following what player x says or changing how they feel after any recent results. Hell, if I come in and say "Hey I don't think Fox goes even with MK", and someone goes "Hey I agree with that cause you're name is DMG", then I'm not pleased at all because that's the same bull**** I wish people would stop doing. I WANT someone to go "Well what do you mean DMG? Elaborate on that, explain to me why you feel this way" and then a discussion takes place. Now, why then do I go around throwing my opinions sometimes without these elaborate in depth explanations? Cause half the time people won't engage in anything, and the other half if I explain myself to death, I get responses like "Lol you biased". And it's not worth my time to type up a genuine response filled to the brim with details and knowledge, only to have it replied with "Well whatevez".


Gheb, this will be the last time I will ask, and after that I'm basically gonna drop it and move on to better things. If you want to talk about Fox vs MK stuff, frame data, positioning advantages, strategic maneuvering, how x moves clash with y scenarios, or go in depth on why I'm wrong in my evaluations of this MU in words other than "You're biased" then I would be more than happy to talk about it. But you've spent more time talking about me being wrong, than talking about why you're right about the MU. Convincing, or proving, that Fox goes even with MK does not start with "DMG you hate MK" and does not end with "DMG you still hate MK".

 

[M@v]

psuedo bump here, but I'm pretty sure this weekend showed pika =/= mk.

Trolling aside, I feel mk's only evens are Falco and diddy, and those are stage dependent. No one goes even with mk on many counterpick stages. Snake and Ice climbers can do ok vs him on the right stages. Fox is mainly gimmicks vs mk. If the mk knows the MU, fox doesn't go even.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MK's hardest match-ups in order:
Meta Knight
Diddy Kong
Falco/Snake
Fox
Wolf
Pikachu

 

[NAKAT]

psuedo bump here, but I'm pretty sure this weekend showed pika =/= mk.

Trolling aside, I feel mk's only evens are Falco and diddy, and those are stage dependent. No one goes even with mk on many counterpick stages. Snake and Ice climbers can do ok vs him on the right stages. Fox is mainly gimmicks vs mk. If the mk knows the MU, fox doesn't go even.

I actually disagree with that, Pwii knows the matchup extremely well to the point it's almost a coin toss to see which one of us beats eachother.