Maybe, but IIRC every one of the top 5 Fox players say that Fox is either even with MK or that Fox beats MK (which has been consistent for at least a year). On the other hand, the opinions of the top 5 Snakes have been mixed on the other side of the spectrum for years now.
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Metaknights' Even matchups? Open discussion
- Thread starter LanceStern
- Start date
tekkie
Smash Master
fox beats mk
which is why mk mains are picking up fox to beat mks at national tournaments and succeeding with it
you cant argue with the results.
which is why mk mains are picking up fox to beat mks at national tournaments and succeeding with it
you cant argue with the results.
You guys are stupid if you think Fox beats MK. He may have a close matchup. Probably not 50-50 but he definitely doesn't even have an advantage. All that's going on is people getting outplayed or not playing the matchup well... SMH.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Don't kid yourselves, folks...Wolf does great against MK as well, but I don't think it's even. MK really shouldn't have any even matchups at all, and these Fox vs. MK matchup discussions claiming otherwise due to frame data that humans could never execute perfectly 100% of the time are just ridiculous.
Conviction
Human Nature
Dog, no one was talking about Wolf LOL. You bring him in whenever Fox is being talked about XD
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Listen to Stauffy please.
I think he loses to some extent to Fox, tbh.
~
As for MK, I don't agree with him having even MUs.
This.
Auspher, please, you must realize by now that you always do this X_x
On topic: MK has no even MUs, but Fox still does relatively well against him. Better than Diddy imo.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Who's saying I can't?
But for real, just giving an example using the character I main, as many do. The point is that while a matchup may feel comfortable, you have to realize the capabilities of the other character your fighting. In this case, I used my own main as an example for an obvious reason; he's who I feel the most comfortable using in that specific matchup, and just overall play.
It's a valid point I'm making. Don't dismiss it just because you hate me for not letting Starfox do that.
Edit: Ish, what kind of Wolf mod are you? You should support that cause.
But for real, just giving an example using the character I main, as many do. The point is that while a matchup may feel comfortable, you have to realize the capabilities of the other character your fighting. In this case, I used my own main as an example for an obvious reason; he's who I feel the most comfortable using in that specific matchup, and just overall play.
It's a valid point I'm making. Don't dismiss it just because you hate me for not letting Starfox do that.
Edit: Ish, what kind of Wolf mod are you? You should support that cause.
Conviction
Human Nature
There is such obvious bi- never mind LOL. Numbers don't matter playing out the MU and knowing your options does.
@ Auspher: I'm not saying you can't or it's not a valid point, but it's just... not the topic. Wolf doesn't need to be in every discussion, it's like... imagine if we had someone come in from every other character saying "Oh MK MUs? My char does pretty good vs MK, don't count them out etc etc", and then the discussion won't get anywhere because there's 20 things going on at once, regardless of how valid each claim is. People don't always want to talk about Wolf, forcing him into everything actually makes people want to talk about him less :x It doesn't paint you in a good light when you repeatedly do this either, y'know :/Edit: Ish, what kind of Wolf mod are you? You should support that cause.
Also, there is no cause
Still <3 Wolf and all the Wofls, but yeah, just sayin' 
D
Deleted member
Guest
I mean, like it said, it was just an example. I didn't go into full on details of Wolf's MU vs. MK like you seem to be saying. It's not a fair point to make when you say it like that, and the example was pretty brief.
You calling me on it is derailing the topic more than anything else, honestly, :/
You calling me on it is derailing the topic more than anything else, honestly, :/
John12346
Smash Master
Personally speaking, I think Wolf does okayish against MK, simply because two of his most used moves(shine and blaster) can compete with Nado and SL, and both character's Dsmashes are roughly equal in killpower, lag, fear-factor, etc...
It's not even, considering MK will gimp the everloving **** out of Wolf, along with that BS dashgrab range, but it's not horrid, imho...
It's not even, considering MK will gimp the everloving **** out of Wolf, along with that BS dashgrab range, but it's not horrid, imho...
This man was alluding to the idea of an MK ban and I DEMAND that he be punished. Where are the mods when you need them?
Well, can't argue that last bit And I'm not accusing you of going into detail, don't see where you got that from tbh :x I was just saying that you bring Wolf into things when the topic doesn't involve him pretty frequently, especially when it's somehow related to Fox :/ I don't mean any offense, really, just calling it like I see it. Your reputation precedes you on this one, imo
What does Fox really have on MK besides good speed, an awesome kill move, and camping with lasers? I'm no Fox/MK expert, but aren't MK's transcendent attacks a bit of an issue when Fox can't outrange them?
Since John#s brought it up, Wolf vs MK is eh. It's probably in the top 20% of each character's hardest MUs lol... I'd say Fox does better, but not by too much. Tornado can be a real pain for Wolf when used intelligently imo, Fox doesn't have as much of an issue with that.
And I'm not accusing you of going into detail, don't see where you got that from tbh :x I was just saying that you bring Wolf into things when the topic doesn't involve him pretty frequently, especially when it's somehow related to Fox :/ I don't mean any offense, really, just calling it like I see it. Your reputation precedes you on this one, imo What does Fox really have on MK besides good speed, an awesome kill move, and camping with lasers? I'm no Fox/MK expert, but aren't MK's transcendent attacks a bit of an issue when Fox can't outrange them?
Since John#s brought it up, Wolf vs MK is eh. It's probably in the top 20% of each character's hardest MUs lol... I'd say Fox does better, but not by too much. Tornado can be a real pain for Wolf when used intelligently imo, Fox doesn't have as much of an issue with that.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I agree that Fox does better against Meta Knight than Wolf, if my opinion means anything.
I think they both do better than Pikachu though, while he is up there with MK's hardest MUs, he's a little over-rated imo.
I think they both do better than Pikachu though, while he is up there with MK's hardest MUs, he's a little over-rated imo.
Orion*
Smash Researcher
the main problem is, when MK gets scared he is not allowed to wall, and anything just zoned or spaced easily easily gets punished by fsmash.
Not only that, but at the level of execution that would be required of fox, an equally skilled MK player would perfectly react to all of foxes approaches.
Also, Orions right about Wolf. Imo Wolf zones MK on the ground possibly better than any character except Yoshi.
edit:
Wolf has some of the most practical options vs MK, while some other characters require greater player execution but get greater reward.
MK doesn't beat Fox and frame data has very little to do with it. It's Fox ridiculous anti-aerial options [the damage output of nair and uair alone is scary], coupled with his ground coverage of lasers, great escape options [high jump escape + super fast dash] and absurd killing power. If MK doesn't approach via the air he eats lasers en masse. If he approaches via the air he constantly has to worry about rising fair or uair. If MK dashes towards Fox he risks getting grabbed and be put in the air or even worse getting dair -> anything'd. What exactly *is* MK supposed to do when aerial approaches are unsafe, his dash is unsafe and walking is not even worth it because you'll end up eating all those lasers? Wanna powershield them all? MKs KO power and damage out put doesn't beat out Fox's damagae output or KO power. So what *is* it that makes the match-up supposedly in MKs favor? All I hear is johns about TKD being godlike, as if Yui hasn't been slaying MKs in Japan since 2008 [so the MU experience excuse doesn't fly here either] as if there aren't any other Fox player that statistically are even with MK at worst.
-Ran
Smash Master
Who has TKD beaten MK wise [of note, aside from Tyrant]? I can't really look at result threads, since TKD is too short of a phrase to search. It seems the main MK that he fights on youtube is Tyrant. In fact, that's all I really can find of him. Clearly, TKD is a great player, but I wish I knew of more matches of him against other top players. Sometimes some players are simply bad against a character, or the other player has a contrasting play-style that they can't adapt fully to.
Conviction
Human Nature
Tyrant, Havok, and Tearbear are the ones I know of, if he ever decides to come back on AIM I can ask him but I think he's ran through every MK in Cali.
Also Ish, in the Fox boards their is college essay type thing for the MK MU so check that out if you want.
Also Ish, in the Fox boards their is college essay type thing for the MK MU so check that out if you want.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Gheb, MK out-ranges Fox.
MK can approach safely, though he has to eat lasers doing it, and once he HAS gotten close he simply can cover more options than Fox can.
@IblisX
I stopped reading that essay when the author mentioned how good Fox is at SDI'ing Tornado.
MK can approach safely, though he has to eat lasers doing it, and once he HAS gotten close he simply can cover more options than Fox can.
@IblisX
I stopped reading that essay when the author mentioned how good Fox is at SDI'ing Tornado.
Not really, but that was pretty jarring >_>
Conviction
Human Nature
Fox's walk into grab is really nice against tiliting MKs.
The accl. allows you still slide into shieldgrab range even if the tilt hits. Also you can buffer a grab after Ftilt1 and if they don't finish it, well you'll get the grab, if they do finish it, shieldstun cancels out the buffered grab, allowing you to get away.
@Grim: LOL yeah there is some obv. dated stuff in there but most of it is frame tested+TKD input.
The accl. allows you still slide into shieldgrab range even if the tilt hits. Also you can buffer a grab after Ftilt1 and if they don't finish it, well you'll get the grab, if they do finish it, shieldstun cancels out the buffered grab, allowing you to get away.
@Grim: LOL yeah there is some obv. dated stuff in there but most of it is frame tested+TKD input.
You're so very vague. He "outranges" Fox [how? under what circumstances? how does that make it hard to punish?], and he can "safely" approach Fox and he can "cover more options than Fox" once he's "gotten in there". I explain how Fox has a direct, practical counter to all of MKs options and the only thing you can come up with is this half-***ed wishy-wash?!?
It's fairly obvious that you don't observe the matchup from a neutral, objective point of view but are fixed on the idea that MK must beat every character in the game.
It's fairly obvious that you don't observe the matchup from a neutral, objective point of view but are fixed on the idea that MK must beat every character in the game.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
That's the best I can do as a mid level player lawl
But seriously, MK can eat the lasers and approach. He can then space with tilts and SH aerials, Fox's answer to this CQC spacing is both much harder for him to pull-off (needs quite strict timing and prediction to maneuver around MK's pressure and especially to punish it with running Up Smash and the like). In short, the risk/reward ratio is more in MK's favour.
Fox can't really stop MK's recovery unless he's really predictable. The MK CAN stop Fox's if he doesn't go too deep. It's basically the same as edge-guarding Falco but you also have to make sure you can always cover the rising fair with a dair/shuttle loop from behind/etc...
The way I see it, Fox has answers to everything Meta Knight can do, but they require much more effort and precision to pull-off than anything MK can do to Fox. It's because of this that only REALLY good players will be able to win the match-up consistently, and that is why they are considered "outliers".
But seriously, MK can eat the lasers and approach. He can then space with tilts and SH aerials, Fox's answer to this CQC spacing is both much harder for him to pull-off (needs quite strict timing and prediction to maneuver around MK's pressure and especially to punish it with running Up Smash and the like). In short, the risk/reward ratio is more in MK's favour.
Fox can't really stop MK's recovery unless he's really predictable. The MK CAN stop Fox's if he doesn't go too deep. It's basically the same as edge-guarding Falco but you also have to make sure you can always cover the rising fair with a dair/shuttle loop from behind/etc...
The way I see it, Fox has answers to everything Meta Knight can do, but they require much more effort and precision to pull-off than anything MK can do to Fox. It's because of this that only REALLY good players will be able to win the match-up consistently, and that is why they are considered "outliers".
Browny
Smash Hater
Wats goin on here?
Foxes beating top MK's regularly in super theory land?
Let me know when it happens IRL. (Note the use of 'fox' and not 'tkd')
Also lol as impressive as tkd's results are, __X__ has pulled similar wins, and he doesnt have to change characters when the enemy actually bothers to use the stage CP system Same applies to japanese foxes who have a free advantage when no one CP's them.
Foxes beating top MK's regularly in super theory land?
Let me know when it happens IRL. (Note the use of 'fox' and not 'tkd')
Also lol as impressive as tkd's results are, __X__ has pulled similar wins, and he doesnt have to change characters when the enemy actually bothers to use the stage CP system
Same applies to japanese foxes who have a free advantage when no one CP's them.
Conviction
Human Nature
You just took 90% of the Fox community and call them outliers.
MK's horizontal air mobility is bad, Fox should be rising Fair away from the stage and shinestall so you don't have as much jump to cover options.
I already told you about the Tilts and the option I gave is really easy. Also Fox can SH over Ftilt 1-2, Dtilt, Fsmash, and Dsmash. So I can Nair or Dair when I know you are going to be spacing with said moves or trying to get the kill.
Tbh, SH fair is harder to punish than Full jump Fair but it still punishable. LOL if you approach with Nair. Dair camping is not really effective when I can just time a rising Fair or Uair before you can Dair again. Bair is like a worse version of Fair.
Browny just threw out the existence of Nakat, Trump, MegaFox, EU Foxes, and others I'm forgetting atm. Damn it's 09 all over again.
We out.
MK's horizontal air mobility is bad, Fox should be rising Fair away from the stage and shinestall so you don't have as much jump to cover options.
I already told you about the Tilts and the option I gave is really easy. Also Fox can SH over Ftilt 1-2, Dtilt, Fsmash, and Dsmash. So I can Nair or Dair when I know you are going to be spacing with said moves or trying to get the kill.
Tbh, SH fair is harder to punish than Full jump Fair but it still punishable. LOL if you approach with Nair. Dair camping is not really effective when I can just time a rising Fair or Uair before you can Dair again. Bair is like a worse version of Fair.
Browny just threw out the existence of Nakat, Trump, MegaFox, EU Foxes, and others I'm forgetting atm. Damn it's 09 all over again.
We out.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
What decent Meta Knights have those other Foxes beaten?
Fox isn't completely safe when he does a rising fair away > shine stall as an escape. It leaves him more vulnerable than he was before, that's the point of pressure.
That tilt option requires predicting tilts, which isn't easy when MK has so many options and his tilts/aerials are as fast as jabs.
It is definitely one of his hardest match-ups, but saying it is in Fox's favour is just too much.
Fox isn't completely safe when he does a rising fair away > shine stall as an escape. It leaves him more vulnerable than he was before, that's the point of pressure.
That tilt option requires predicting tilts, which isn't easy when MK has so many options and his tilts/aerials are as fast as jabs.
It is definitely one of his hardest match-ups, but saying it is in Fox's favour is just too much.
Conviction
Human Nature
Whoa, I never said it was Fox's favor LOL. I just think it's even.
Those people have beaten their respective MKs in their region and/or PR.
Inb4Cassiocomesoutofleftfield
This isn't a CP stage?
Or this
Those people have beaten their respective MKs in their region and/or PR.
Inb4Cassiocomesoutofleftfield
This isn't a CP stage?
Or this
Browny
Smash Hater
Pretty sure plenty of other characters have had similar success vs whatever MK's that those players have beaten. Doesnt mean they go even with MK rofl.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I have success against Power Ranked Meta Knight players in my region with Jigglypuff. It's not quite enough, I'm afraid.
Even is plausible, I guess. I still think it's MK's favour though :3
Oh, and if Fox/MK is even Diddy/MK is in Diddy's favour.
Even is plausible, I guess. I still think it's MK's favour though :3
Oh, and if Fox/MK is even Diddy/MK is in Diddy's favour.
Tyrant, Eru, Nairo, Otori, Holy Nightmare are all good MK players that have lost to Fox players other than TKD.
Conviction
Human Nature
There is a difference between once and a long a span of time and mutliple players of one character doing over and over again. LOL, you are trying to downplay any type of success a Fox player has had over MK. I feel that trying to explain to you is like trying to break the Great Wall of China with my bare hands.
Don't compare MUs for me LOL, I don't know about Diddy MUs besides the one vs. Fox. I'd have to ask BigLou about Diddy.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Is there a video of a Fox beating Nairo? I'd like to see styles other than TKD's (he's the only Fox I've really payed attention to before).
Conviction
Human Nature
D
Deleted member
Guest
MK's aerials can outrange all of Fox's aerials, Gheb. Also, pretty much what Browny said. Get it in your heads.
And I knew this discussion would come up again in here.
And I knew this discussion would come up again in here.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Ignore/delete this double post. Smashboards needs more maintenance, apparently.
Very shallow point considering that Fox has enough time to punish the cooldown of these aerials anyway. Just because he doesn't beat them face to face doesn't mean that there's no way for him to deal with it.