Metaknights' Even matchups? Open discussion

[Deleted member]

Super Theory Crafters Brawl version 3.0 Remix HD edition.

Go.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Says the guy who claims that MK outranges all of Fox' aerials ...

 

[Conviction]

MK's aerials can outrange all of Fox's aerials, Gheb. Also, pretty much what Browny said. Get it in your heads.

And I knew this discussion would come up again in here.

What this is I don't even. Do you even have a solid argument? All you are doing is latching on to earlier bad ones.

Super Theory Crafters Brawl version 3.0 Remix HD edition.

Go.

Says the guy who claims that MK outranges all of Fox' aerials ...

This. LOL

 

[Deleted member]

You're saying he doesn't?

And I was referring to an earlier point that Gheb made that MK has to worry about rising f-air.

 

[Conviction]

Yep. I'd like to see Fair or Bair outrange my Uair when I come from under him LOL

and yes, he does. MK can't have the Dair hitbox out 24/7 like you guys make it out to be, the is time between each one. Fox's vertical speed is quick and rising Fair makes it faster. Just in case none of you noticed that.

Spoiler

inb4wolf

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Your comparing horizontal range to vertical. When you refer to actual range it's more likely MK's dair vs Fox's uair.

 

[Deleted member]

Yep. I'd like to see Fair or Bair outrange my Uair when I come from under him LOL

and yes, he does. MK can't have the Dair hitbox out 24/7 like you guys make it out to be, the is time between each one. Fox's vertical speed is quick and rising Fair makes it faster. Just in case none of you noticed that.

Is it really that easy to get in that window of opportunity? A good MK isn't going to just sh-dair all day, lmao.

Seriously, how can you not see the amount of options MK has against your character and the rest of the cast? He should have absolutely NO even matchups. Also, probably the #1 reason he shouldn't go even with another character is the sheer power he has in counterpicking.

 

[Conviction]

What MK SH Dairs? (we need more of those) LOL, yes the window is manageable. Who cares about the rest of the cast? We are talking about Fox vs. MK. Not MK vs everyone.

I feel fine on Brinstar vs. MK, Nakat feels the same. I'll ban RC.

@Ryu: They trade. If you hit with the 2nd hit Uair you get the better trade-off.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Seriously, how can you not see the amount of options MK has against your character and the rest of the cast? He should have absolutely NO even matchups.

There we have it. Exactly the kind of criticism I voiced against Grim Tuesday applies to many people who claim that MK has no even match-ups. You're not being open minded about this. You enter discussion pre-supposing that MK wins all match-ups and center all your arguments and thoughts on this, rather than starting at zero and comparing tools and options.

Once you've run out of arguments you fall back to generic cop-outs like "but he has so many options against XY...". Then what *are* these options? So far the only thing you mentioned was that MK "outranges all of Fox' aerials" which isn't even an argument as to why MK wins. Wolf also outranges all of Fox' aerials and doesn't have the advantage.
If you talk about "all these options" that MK supposedly has why don't you *name* them? I'm sure I can find a valid, practical counter on Fox' side for all of them.

 

[Conviction]

To add on what gheb said. Do I really have to fill up a massive portion of the page with the info me and TKD made?

 

[Deleted member]

To add on what gheb said. Do I really have to fill up a massive portion of the page with the info me and TKD made?

You're going to do it anyway.

 

[Conviction]

You're going to do it anyway.

This is the best argument I've seen all day

and no I shouldn't have to if people could read on their own after I told them where to find it LOL

 

[popsofctown]

I've played lots of Fox versus Meta Knight, as the Metaknight.

On an eventless Bridge of Eldin, Fox is as good or better than Metaknight. Fox's runspeed makes him able to punish shielded tornadoes that back away more than a lot of the cast. Fox has one of the best kill moves in the game, and a damage racking punish the likes of which there is little else in the game, he's really a beast held down by some vicious vs-spacie combos that MK doesn't really have access to.

Fox can get gimped off stage though. It's not something that only happens to bad Foxes, it happens. He can also be easily hit on a predicted onstage illusion, which is a way of getting more damage with just the threat of MK's gimp game. If I pull off a gimp somewhere in a match, I feel favored to win, if I don't I do in fact feel favored to lose. (I'm no M2K though). A string of nonlethal punishes for Fox's risky recovery can put the match at about even.

I think it's a very close matchup. I don't think it's even, I think MK has an edge. Fox is definitely better than Falco against MK, against Falco I just air camp, often get chaingrabbed anyway, but giggle when I shield Falco's killing upsmashes on the frame Fox would have had me killed. There are so many things I'm allowed to do at Falco's kill percents that I can't do against a Fox, which makes it easier to eke out extra damage on a Falco while I'm on death row.

Something to note though is that the matchup requires a lot of specific experience. The matchup improved tons of me when I learned exactly when Upsmash was going to start killing and started sheilding like crazy, SDI'ed out of Fair consistently, and stopped using some of the moves that are a lot less safe around Fox like tornado, shuttle loop, and downsmash.

I hope people aren't drawing conclusions based on "Sonic came from nowhere and beat some MKs" logic. If a Fox obliterates a Meta Knight who has excellent results against the state's top MKs, Snakes, and Diddys, that doesn't mean he has played against Fox enough to adapt his style to him. Upair and forward air used to be half the ways I got killed by Fox, but after I learned to DI forward air and expect the jumpspeed behind upair, they vanished as kill moves. At first I died at 110% upsmashes, when I figured out Fox's throws can't kill or even follow up well, he started killing me at 170% because I shielded like crazy at high %s. And it's not just any one specific thing, Fox's run speed and aerial movement makes him very different and gives him strong surprise factor, much like Sonic. There's more legit advantages behind that, but you still have to throw out a lot of the irrelevant matches you see before you draw conclusions.

 

[Conviction]

Lol @Fox not having good follow ups after throwing. You know Dthrow is a staple juggle starter?

Wait you live AL, good I don't have to do a whole bunch of explaining. Just come to GA for a tourney.

 

[DMG]

MK tilt range and speed makes Fox poop.

Fox's strategy of running away laser is fine. However, the part about going from the left side of the stage to the right side of the stage, THROUGH MK, is not ok. Fox's ability to do that safely and reliably is heavily doubtful, even with his vertical mixups for delaying actions, concerning shine. Fox should have a fairly difficult time getting back onstage. Shuttle Loop and Dair to send him offstage can put him in incredibly bad positions.

Fox isn't great at approaching MK. Approaching MK means taking away your fairly solid defensive tools and laser camping, and replacing it with approaching MK in a game where defense is amazing. This stuff about SH Dair or SH airdodge mindgames is bull. Your MU is basically run like hell from MK, shoot lasers, hope to trick him a few times/make him play overly aggressive, punish, run to other side of stage. That's IT. There is no SH Bair spacing or Full Hop Fair weave game.

The few things you have on MK are pretty solid. GR to Usmash is nasty, although your methods for getting a grab on MK are pretty subpar compared to most characters. If your best option for trying to get a grab is airdodging into him and reading the spotdodge/shield (because don't even get me started with SH Dair to grab ideas that don't work, or going for a grab in places Usmash would punish anyways like a bad tornado), that's a lot of work you're gonna have to do.

The MU is not even, but Fox can confidently say MK doesn't hard counter him.


There. Now shut up about Fox vs MK.

 

[popsofctown]

Lol @Fox not having good follow ups after throwing. You know Dthrow is a staple juggle starter?

Wait you live AL, good I don't have to do a whole bunch of explaining. Just come to GA for a tourney.

In context, I was talking about high %s. Downthrow to fair works at low %s and is part of Fox's great rack game, but at high percents downthrow tosses people too far to get consistent follow ups. Even if you land a fair, the smash DI avoids the killing kick and the net result is just more damage. So, fox has a lot of trouble killing a shieldy metaknight. A grab from Diddy can kill, Snake gets a tech chase with skill potential, Fox just gets upthrow upair, which can get airdodged very consistently when you learn to account for Fox's vertical movement.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Bobby thinks he's a genius, I agree with his post completely btw.

 

[Conviction]

LOL just come to GA.

 

[OverLade]

Iblis... let's be real. How many top MKs do you have in GA? How many top MKs have you even played?

 

[Doc King]

I feel like Diddy Kong and Pikachu are even matchups, maybe Fox, Falco, and Wolf too.

 

[Cassio]

You guys forgot trevonte best fox in the US. Hes beaten pretty much everyone in socal. He also beat tyrant on RC, lol.

DMG its a good post, although lasers are supposed to force MK to approach and also create openings for approaching. I think youre also overestimating MKs ability to approach Fox and underestimating Foxs ability to move move around. People seem to forget fox's amazing mobility stats. Its not an exaggeration to say that Fox is better than metaknight in every way. This is of course excluding mobility relating to shine stalling, rising fair, illusion, tornado, glide, drill rush, etc.

Walk Top Speed
2. Fox (1.45)
10. Meta Knight (1.22)

Dash/Foxtrot Speed
1. Fox (2.10)
7. Meta Knight (1.75)

Running Speed
3. Fox (2.08)
6. Meta Knight (1.85)

Acceleration Due to Gravity
1. Fox (0.17)
6. Meta Knight (0.10)

Acceleration Due to Gravity Boost While Fastfalling
6. Fox (0.01)
6. Meta Knight (0.01)

Normal Fall Terminal Velocity
3. Fox (1.83)
19. Meta Knight (1.39)

Fastfalling Terminal Velocity
4. Fox (2.56)
19. Meta Knight (1.95)

Base Aerial Mobility
10. Fox (0.08)
19. Meta Knight (0.07)

Aerial Mobility Boost While Decelerating
7. Fox (0.01)
7. Meta Knight (0.01)

Maximum Air Speed
24. Fox (0.89)
36. Meta Knight (0.75)

Weight/Launch Resistance
33. Fox (80)
34. Meta Knight (79)

I think they both do better than Pikachu though, while he is up there with MK's hardest MUs, he's a little over-rated imo.

Fox definitely, but not wolf. If pika's is overrated so is everyone but fox, unless youre talking about difficulty.

 

[OverLade]

Posting frame data has nothing to do with the actual matchup. Check please.

 

[Cassio]

It's not frame data, and it is relevant for the MU since its overlooked and was used as an argument against Fox. Im still getting dessert

 

[Doc King]

Also Fox can punish the tornado with the dair, so if mk is using the tornado, Fox can just press the stick in any direction on the first hit to escape the tornado (Some other characters can do this also). With the dair, Fox can punish it with the dair to a combo and can also shine to up smash on mk.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can't escape Tornado by pressing anything, it's un-SDIable.

 

[OverLade]

If you tornado properly, Fox can't get out. Most top MKs light tap tornado these days.

Also, dair beating tornado doesnt mean you can beat tornado if he nados you from positions other than from under you...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://theelectricscribble.com/2011/06/20/tkds-fox-and-the-meta-knight-matchup/

Straight from TKD

 

[DMG]

The main mobility comparisons are:

1. Fox in the air trying to cross past MK who is on the ground

2. Fox in the air trying to cross past MK who is on the ground

Fox is faster than MK in the air, but it's hard to airdodge through him because of how much space he controls in the air. If you DJ in the air and MK follows, you have to worry about Shuttle Loop Nair Uair Fair if you are in front Dair if you airdodge/try to dip down Tornado etc. If you are doing anything else, and honestly expect to get past MK movement wise, you simply are not putting enough space between the two of you for that to reasonably happen. If MK gets close and you just Full hop trying to cross over, even with platforms around you aren't accomplishing much.

That in particular is what I refer to when I say people overrate his mobility.


Not his ground speed or his ability to keep up with MK if MK is in the air and Fox is on the ground, but the reverse. If Fox is in the air and MK is following him either on ground or in the air, there's no magical movement or weave or trick he can play to reasonably try and catch MK off guard to get to the other side of the stage and keep lasering. Or to trick MK sufficiently that he makes a bad call, you punish, and go back to laser camping. It HAPPENS, not gonna say people don't prematurely shuttle loop into stuff or that MK players are always patient and are content spacing moves at max range instead of getting closer for the Nair, but it's not something reliable enough to cite as a MU tool for Fox to use against MK that evens the playing field. Which, that tends to get cited a lot. "Oh just shoot lasers and DJ shine fast fall airdodge Dair Nair mixup etc on battlefield to be tricky and get past MK and be safe". That stuff is BS lol. If Wario, the god of running away in the air, hates trying to get past MK... don't even get me started on what BS Fox has to pull to do the same thing.

 

[z00ted]

I'm just going to stop here and say that Metaknight goes at least 6:4 with every character in the game.

 

[Tesh]

I'm just going to stop here and say that Metaknight goes at least 6:4 with every character in the game.

 

[Conviction]

Okay, I really lost to that pic.

 

[M@v]

Iblis... let's be real. How many top MKs do you have in GA? How many top MKs have you even played?

I've played m2k...and he made this mu feel like its 90:10 mk LOL. Then again, he does that a lot.

 

[Conviction]

Oh wait, I've never seen that post Redhably made. I've actually played M2K a couple of times while he was in GA and I guess Kismet if you want to count him. LOL, M@v you did worse than I did then. I put up a fight. 1 match I got him last stock. Biggest accomplishment yet.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I forgot that DMG knows every little detail about this game already and that he already figured it out completely. In the future I will listen to nobody else's advice even if statistics don't prove him anywhere near right and some of the best players of either character claim otherwise and back it up solidly. Even then and even if my own brain tells me he's actually wrong I'm going to agree with him.

DMG is god.

 

[Conviction]

Thank you Based God.

 

[Judo777]

You guys need to also remember that a characters range is also very important related to their maximum effective range when trying to evade them. DK is probably the hardest character in the game to get away from because his maximum effective range is like 3/4 of the entire stage. He's fast but more importantly his moves are long.

MK is the same. Fox maybe able to outspeed him everywhere but MK outranges fox everywhere so you have to take that into account.

 

[OverLade]

I forgot that DMG knows every little detail about this game already and that he already figured it out completely. In the future I will listen to nobody else's advice even if statistics don't prove him anywhere near right and some of the best players of either character claim otherwise and back it up solidly. Even then and even if my own brain tells me he's actually wrong I'm going to agree with him.

DMG is god.

All hail the might DMG

Oh wait, I've never seen that post Redhably made. I've actually played M2K a couple of times while he was in GA and I guess Kismet if you want to count him. LOL, M@v you did worse than I did then. I put up a fight. 1 match I got him last stock. Biggest accomplishment yet.

I got M2K down to last stock with Fox... POINT?

I've played m2k...and he made this mu feel like its 90:10 mk LOL. Then again, he does that a lot.

Meh when I play him with characters like that I see the punishment windows it's just always too late. I have no doubt a fox good enough could beat him, but it doesn't make the matchup even, just reasonable.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do any of the top Fox's other than Zeton stay Fox on MK's hard cps?

Gheb didn't he compare tools and options like you suggested before? then why the hate?

 

[OverLade]

It's hard not to hate on DMG. He has too much swag.

 

[DMG]

I forgot that DMG knows every little detail about this game already and that he already figured it out completely. In the future I will listen to nobody else's advice even if statistics don't prove him anywhere near right and some of the best players of either character claim otherwise and back it up solidly. Even then and even if my own brain tells me he's actually wrong I'm going to agree with him.

DMG is god.

Ok. Cube of Vast Knowledge, shine your light on this man:


1. Fox mains beating MK players =/= even MU. I guess no one mentions the sets that MK players win against Fox, OR the sets that Fox players switch from the character to someone else. Of course not, all we wanna talk about is Trevonte or TKD vs Tyrant (the sets he wins of course. When Tyrant wins a set, you just use that as fuel to enhance TKD's wins over him. "SEE Tyrant ***** at that MU, and TKD still wins, therefore Fox must beat/go even with MK!" instead of looking at the sets/mu more objectively)


2. I don't claim to know everything, but it doesn't seem like it takes a genius to objectively look at Fox vs MK and determine "Ok, Fox has some solid defensive tools. These tools easily keep him in contention vs MK. However, it's noticeably easier to chase Fox down and hit him with faster, longer ranged moves while he tries to get past you to gain more space and continue camping, than it is for Fox to continually camp and cross past MK when he gets close. When this scenario happens, if Fox gets sent offstage or higher up in the air, he's gonna have some issues. This is MK we are talking about. Shuttle Loop Uair Nair Fair Tornado, you have to worry about at least 1 of these at any time. It's more likely for VERY bad things to happen to Fox if you put him in a bad situation than if you put MK in a bad situation. Furthermore, the actual definition of "bad situation" is much more narrow for MK than Fox. Being offstage in that MU is not a big problem for MK. Being offstage as FOX against MK can be brutal. Being directly above Fox while the two of you are in the air can hurt quite a bit, but it usually leads to an aerial and the punishment is over. Being in the air above MK while the two of you are in the air can quickly turn bad, or the scenario can be reset over and over a lot easier than Fox can do to MK."


If you think I'm ignoring MU data between the two character, go ahead and prove me wrong. Who has the better tilts? The better Fair? Better Uair/Nair/Shuttle Loop/Tornado? Ok Fox doesn't have some of those, fine. Fox gets a vertical killer, laser camping, and what? A more dangerous OOS game if characters are at higher %? What else? More damage on certain moves on strong hits? I mean I'm trying to give Fox credit for what he has over MK. Cause we all know there's a list of:


Edgeguarding
Recovering
Juggle Trapping
Range
Priority
Platform Game
CP stages
Variety of Kill Moves
Variety of Approaching
Safeness in moves (both Frame data and SDI factor of a move. You can SDI both Fox Dair and MK Fair, but which move would you realistically SDI better/easier? Fox Dair. That's a disadvantage for Fox especially for a move that links into just about everything.)


That MK is the better character in those categories. Now, unless you wanna say that these aspects of a match don't occur as often as Fox's advantages in the MU, and that's why he can go even, then by all means try and make that argument. Fox has these tools, and MK has these tools, but these MK tools aren't that important because Fox's tools are more prominent and matter more, FOXXXXXXXXXXXX.


3. Player opinion of the MU changes quite a bit. TKD has said everything from Fox beats MK, Fox goes even, Fox loses a tad, Fox SHOULD go even but CP list prevent it, Fox goes even again, etc. Zeton last time I talked to him said he felt it was not a very hard MU, but that MK definitely had an easier time and was probably a soft counter 6:4. Trevonte... has he even voiced his opinion of the MU?


In recent times, most opinions I've heard of Fox minus MAYBE Nakat and Iblix whatever the **** his name is, hold that Fox has a decent MU vs MK, but that it is not an even MU. Something around 6:4.

Do any of the top Fox's other than Zeton stay Fox on MK's hard cps?

Gheb didn't he compare tools and options like you suggested before? then why the hate?

He has hate because I don't have an elaborate diagram or drawing of Fox vs MK positioning wars, with their mobility data calculated and expressed clearly, showing how MK's speed on the ground and the range he covers in the air tend to prevent Fox from being on the left side of BF, leaping into the air, and reliably getting through MK to the other stage to continue laser camping.


Or that I didn't post each character's frame data side by side, and show how MK's Ftilt and Dtilt **** a lot of Fox's ground maneuvers, or range comparisons elaborating how it's not so crazy for Fox to maybe struggle with beating Tornado and Uair and Shuttle Loop safely.


Or that I didn't do a hyper theoretical breakdown of the MU where we expect every player to play perfectly, and show that Fox would PS every MK move and punish without fault.




Lastly... Gheb if you think I am being a pretentious biased person, have a discussion with me and prove me wrong. I think I'm to look at this MU unbiased. None of this "Oh it's MK, he HAS to win his MU's, that's a given" crap. I'm not picking sets that favor MK winning or Fox winning. I'm trying to look at it all, from what TKD thinks to recent sets to side by side comparison of the characters. If you think that's being unfair to Fox, show me what would be fair to Fox. If I'm not giving him enough credit, then elaborate to me how amazing he is at getting through MK to the other side of the stage, or fighting hand to hand with MK, or avoiding the edgeguarding opportunities or how his laser camping nullifies MK's advantages or whatever it will take to demonstrate "Hey DMG, you're wrong, Fox goes even with MK". I'd love to hear it.