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Metaknight versus Diddy

Overswarm

is laughing at you
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May 4, 2005
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What do you want to know about this matchup?

What do you already know?


This matchup has been a popularized matchup for quite some time now, and I already have a ton of information. As part of a solo-man project I'm going to collect, confirm, and distribute as much information on this matchup as I can. You can help by answering the above two questions.


I'm also collecting videos, so if you know of any high level matches that don't involve videos posted in the MK / Diddy video threads link them here!
 

Overswarm

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Gates said:
Der, I'm gonna assume OS isn't lookin' in other threads at all durp da her! Imma post like a COOL GUY cuz everyone has to know what a COOL GUY I am since I'm telling OS to look in the matchup thread cuz he's obviously not gonna do that himself! I'm such a COOL GUY
Thanks.

10 Lain
 

Jupz

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I know that Diddy can punish most, if not all of MK's moves with a glide toss OOS. The exceptions to this are rising aerials. This makes diddy hard to approach. Tornado can be punished even if retreated due to the banana's long range. Diddy can set up a strong wall with two banana's - elimating all metaknight's ground options except running shield/dodge and popgun to control him in the air. Metaknight can attempt to wait for the banana's to disappear but it isn't too hard for Diddy to pull out new bananas - all it takes is a grab. Diddy has an amazing shield and can stand up to the tornado even without banana's. Diddy has an above average grab range and throws and an amazing dash attack which lets him pick up banana's easily an effeciently. Not DI'ed properly it can combo into a Utilt, Usmash, Dtilt, and any aerial at low percents. Monkey Hump is good when used offensively but is easily gimped as a recovery.


Metaknight has some trouble camping Diddy. Air camping works great in theory - Dair his aerials and catch Uthrown banana's with Dair, but its more complicated in practice. Diddy can simply wait for you to Dair and then Uair you OOS, or if you're higher up he can fullhop, baiting a Dair, then Uair after. If you don't Dair, he can simply Uair you in the first place. Peanuts help discourage aerial play as well. Diddy can have some trouble killing but this is obviously aided by the banana's. Fair is a great killer too.

 

CaliburChamp

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Metaknights best attributes are countered by... bananas. It stops tornado, it makes it riskier to approach. Diddy Kong can also out run the tornado. Shuttle loops gets out prioritized by bananas, and Diddy has a lot of control of the stage. In my opinion I think Snake and Diddy beat MK 55-45. Also, Diddy just has to accurately toss one banana at MK when MK is at high % then either f-smash or d-smash for the easy KO set up, it makes it even easier for Diddy when the Diddy Kong is setting up a wall with peanuts and bananas, then MK is forced to approach, and his punishable approach with tornado is countered, as long as Diddy Kong has a banana in his hand, most smart Diddy Kongs try to make you use tornado while they have a banana in their hand, then once they finish shield the tornado, you get hit with a banana, and get combo'd or KO'ed from Diddy's other moves.

Diddy Kong beats MK in the match up, as long as Diddy Kong is camping and playing gay. The best stage a Metaknight player can take Diddy Kong to is Norfair, because of the platform set ups and because the Lava forces the Diddy Kong player to move or Rainbow Cruise because of the moving stage makes it harder for Diddy to stay in one spot and camp you.
 

Overswarm

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I won't be commenting much on the statements in this thread, if at all.

This was sparked more or less by M2K vs. ADHD, yes. M2K clearly doesn't know the matchup at all. I don't know the matchup that well anymore (Diddy metagame evolved faster than I was able to play AZ!) and I'd wager I still know the matchup better than M2K. Looking at videos of this matchup, I found this was mostly true for everyone across the board. Everyone knew certain aspects of the matchup more than other players did. MK knowledge hasn't been consolidated when it comes to this matchup, mostly because of the lack of good Diddy players due to the extreme dedication it takes for them while we just pick up sticks and press "b" to turn on cruise control to top 8.

Over time we've found that only GOOD Diddy players seem to do well against MKs, and even then inconsistently. I don't believe Diddy wins this matchup at all; if he does, it willrequire much more information and techniques than they have now. The single naner lock could be amazing if they master it, but we'll just have to see about that.
 

moyshe

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Heres what I think, quit playing the easiest character in the game. kthxbai inb4lock.
 

BSP

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Even though I'm sure there are exceptions, I haven't really seen any MKs trying to use the bananas against diddy, and that's pretty important.
 

judge!

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eh. useing them against him doesnt really work lol. idk but it seems at a top lvl diddy just beats mk str8 up. my mk doesnt do to hott against adhd my wario does great. Idk mk only has so many options. diddy has maybe 3-5 options that can be set up to be used against u at all times. and camping diddy is out of the question. ino its srsly hard to accept mk may just be beaton by a char.....but yes it can happen and it has proove me wrong////give me vids if u actually play diddys.
 

Kaffei

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I noticed a very interesting strategy that Mew2King was using in Grand Finals.

Whenever he used Tornado, and ADHD shielded it, Mew2King retreated next to the ledge, or ended the animation of Tornado off stage so he could fall and grab the ledge. The thing is, if MK is near the ledge after Tornado's animation is over, and Diddy is far away, all Diddy can do is throw a banana which automatically pushes MK onto the edge. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Diddy can't follow up after that.

As for the latter, it seems risky, but I think it's a good idea to retreat off stage so you fall and grab the ledge (During Tornado if Diddy shields it or something.)

Like this:


Actually Diddy can just throw a banana at you when you're retreating to stop Tornado, so I don't know how well this actually works, but M2K was pulling it off pretty well when I watched him..

Thoughts?
 

clowsui

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kaffei that kind of shield pressure doesn't really work because diddy can start setting up on the stage at that point, it's just a reset and you being on the ledge is a disadvantaged position in terms of options because you can't apply any active pressure or extend your stage control
 

BRoomer
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Metaknights best attributes are countered by... bananas. It stops tornado, it makes it riskier to approach. Diddy Kong can also out run the tornado. Shuttle loops gets out prioritized by bananas, and Diddy has a lot of control of the stage. In my opinion I think Snake and Diddy beat MK 55-45. Also, Diddy just has to accurately toss one banana at MK when MK is at high % then either f-smash or d-smash for the easy KO set up, it makes it even easier for Diddy when the Diddy Kong is setting up a wall with peanuts and bananas, then MK is forced to approach, and his punishable approach with tornado is countered, as long as Diddy Kong has a banana in his hand, most smart Diddy Kongs try to make you use tornado while they have a banana in their hand, then once they finish shield the tornado, you get hit with a banana, and get combo'd or KO'ed from Diddy's other moves.

Diddy Kong beats MK in the match up, as long as Diddy Kong is camping and playing gay. The best stage a Metaknight player can take Diddy Kong to is Norfair, because of the platform set ups and because the Lava forces the Diddy Kong player to move or Rainbow Cruise because of the moving stage makes it harder for Diddy to stay in one spot and camp you.
meta isn't countered by Diddy but by banana's. I quoted CaliburChamp but pretty much everyone says just that. its much more the banana than diddy as a character. So while yes you can create a whole bunch of senarios where diddy always has a banana avalible to him, but the answer to winning the match up against the best diddy's is obvious you have to control the banana's there isn't really other options.

I would imagine banana's are hard to control as diddy because of poor aeiral mobility and a lack luster pick up range, but I really feel like his great zoning ability should be doing something to out weigh that.

I'm pointing out the obvious here but Diddy yis contructed to be great with items very low frame throw animations that make the item cover decent distance. very easy to catch items with dash attack and aerials. with MK none of these are true, so even if his glide toss is neat he isn't going to gain anywhere near as much as diddy so don't gvie opperrtunities back to diddy to get his banana's you are a much stronger character than him when neither of you have them.
 

Kaffei

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kaffei that kind of shield pressure doesn't really work because diddy can start setting up on the stage at that point, it's just a reset and you being on the ledge is a disadvantaged position in terms of options because you can't apply any active pressure or extend your stage control
Yeah that's what I thought so idk why M2K was doing it. Doesn't this still prevent you from being punished, though? and What are MK's options on the ledge?
 

Pierce7d

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The best way to fight Diddy IMO is to attack him. He has good defense, but his defense GROWS over time, so hit him while he's weak. When he has two bananas, you are NOT getting in. End of story. That brickwall is virtually unbreakable, but expires overtime.

Once it's down, just use a good read. Drill Rush Edgeguard ***** SideB. Hit him off stage, and have patient guarding with good spacing, and brickwall him back while he's on the edge. Once you understand Diddy's options from the ledge, keeping him there isn't that hard. He has no bananas, so you patiently brickwall until a gimp or a K.O., and if he gets past you, precise aggression with a couple of good reads resets the situation. You don't want to get hit by Fair or Grab (or a smash attack) so when you're in the air, watch out for Fair, and when you're on the ground, don't get grabbed. These moves have the knockback Diddy needs to set-up bananas again.

Basically, camp when he's got his shield and wall up. Attack when it's down. Banana's cannot be passed through. Feint a lot, and then attack in the openings. MK is used to generating openings in his opponent's walls, but you have to let this one open itself.
 

BRoomer
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You guys are playing this out in your heads like diddy always has bananas. He doesn't and shouldn't. he throws them at you. take banana's away from him and kill him. Diddy is a mediocre character without banana's and you are MK. Every time you get him alone without a banana you should get a good amount of damage and edge guard opportunity or a stock.

MK isn't the hotest at controlling items, but doing some easily turns the match in your favor. When diddy has banana's you main focus shouldn't be how to avoid him but instead how to get the banana's awayfrom him with minimal risk.

I can't wait till people realize how much they are hyping up diddy.
 

Kitamerby

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The best way to fight Diddy IMO is to attack him. He has good defense, but his defense GROWS over time, so hit him while he's weak. When he has two bananas, you are NOT getting in. End of story. That brickwall is virtually unbreakable, but expires overtime.
Short hop to grab.

GG ADHD.
 

Pierce7d

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You're forgetting how gdlk the popgun is, as well as glide tossing away. You can even toss down to maintain the banana. Diddy is fast, you can mindgame him with stuff like that, but it doesn't win the match.
 

Kitamerby

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You're forgetting how gdlk the popgun is, as well as glide tossing away. You can even toss down to maintain the banana. Diddy is fast, you can mindgame him with stuff like that, but it doesn't win the match.
Airdodge then. Or just jump again. Or just follow his glide toss if he does it downwards and grab him. or dair his shield. Or just... grab.
 

ksizl4life

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it doesnt matter. this isnt what the thread should be about because not many need help vs diddy

rename it to MetaKnight vs ADHD plz
 

RATED

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do u know who u solve the MU? banning MK , that way u don't have to play it anymore.

ps: don't nado at diddy when he has naners at hand that's stupid.


also I herd u liek nado spam and planking. :)
 

Jem.

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I know a lot of you probably don't know me, or a lot of you just think I'm bad, but I've played against Felix's Diddy (I'm number 1 in the Pacific Northwest, he is number 2) a lot of times. And before you say he isn't as good as ADHD - That is probably true for the time being, but he gets better every tournament, and at Tourneyplay 3 he beat Havok 2-0 so clearly he has a lot of potential. So I am just going to say how I feel on the matchup.

I think the matchup first off, is 55 - 45 Metaknights favor.

Things you NEED to do to have success against Diddy:

Play extremely aggressive
. A lot of diddys are now doing the "ADHD wall" with peanuts and bananas, they want you to camp and be behind in the match. You have to be smart while you're doing this though. What this means is RARELY, IF EVER, hitting diddy's shield. It is NO-GO if he has a banana, you're asking to get comboed if you attack his shield while he has a banana. What you can do, is attack the corner of his shield with dair at the top part, he cant punish that.

Attack diddys recovery from above. A lot of diddys have now learned that if they keep Metaknight parallel to himself, the over b has so much priority that it'll latch onto Metaknight, ruining your edge-guard. Attack his recovery from above-diagonally with dair or even fast falling fair.

Start the match off with dash attack!! every diddy either pulls a banana from the ground, or jumps and pulls a banana. I've gotten a quick starting gimp that way. If they don't pull out a banana to start for some reason, play aggressive as heck. If the dash attack hits, bthrow reverse fair and follow the edge-guard up. If they aren't used to the aggressive aerial b, you can do that after the fair and kill him, but most automatically air dodge, so wait for the read. If they jumped and the dash attack didn't hit, follow up with tornado or upair, diddy is useless if he's above you.

This is important for all matches, BUT DON'T GET DESPERATE FOR THE KILL! Diddy is probably the character who can punish kill-greed the most. If you start spamming down smash, diddy has one of the best shields in the game and it wont hit nor break his shield even if the shield is small! Just keep playing your game to get him off the ground. If you see the opening by all means do it, but do NOT get desperate for the kill.

Counterpick Brinstar if they ban Rainbow. Counterpick Rainbow, Frigate, or Castle Seige if they ban Brinstar. I've found success on Castle Seige by fighting for the first transformation, running and getting little hits in on the 2nd (try not to let him refresh his moves on the statues though, use them as bait) and running on the 3rd transformation. Be careful though, a lot of diddy's nowadays practice on Rainbow and Delfino a lot, which is why I didn't include Delfino (you can pick it I suppose if youre really comfortable there)

Shield up b diddy's bananas! When diddy is starting to throw bananas at you when you're both on the ground, if you're frame perfect your shield up b will hit him. This is a lot more suggestable at a higher percent, as he will recover quicker at lower percent and fight for control again. Try standing in front of diddy when he has 2 bananas ready and he'll likely glide toss one at you -- its kind of a mind game like an empty short hop or walking at them.

z-catch diddys bananas! when he throws a banana at you, short hop and press z as its about to hit you, and you'll catch the banana no lag! remember the same goes for diddy though, so be smart once you have the banana. Banana control is probably THE most important part of this matchup, so you can't give up the bananas back to him that quickly.

Be careful with your tilts! again, because diddys shield is soooo good, he can actually frame-perfect shield grab out of your tilt even without a banana if you're too close. Especially be careful for that if he has a banana -- you should just try to poke his shield at that point on the corners.

Keep diddy above you!! this is pretty common, but still extremely vital to racking percent. You can bait an air dodge then tornado, you can straight up tornado, up air, nair, whatever. Just try to keep him in the air AS LONG AS POSSIBLE to rack up damage.

I will come up with more later if people like this..
 

Jem.

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Also, I'd like to note, that I see a lot of MK's simply glide toss the banana back to diddy.. Everyone expects it guys. play around with the banana. z drop and catch it, do whatever. you can glide toss nair and catch the banana before it hits the ground too. but seriously, glide toss to dsmash is expected nowadays, be creative!
 

Crizthakidd

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theres really no discussing diddy so much. none of them place top 5 except for the werid one diagnosed with adhd

its him. he plays too god dam much against top mks. but once they figure out how to gay out diddy the match will be in our favor by more than 5 pts -_-
 

Jem.

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theres really no discussing diddy so much. none of them place top 5 except for the werid one diagnosed with adhd

its him. he plays too god dam much against top mks. but once they figure out how to gay out diddy the match will be in our favor by more than 5 pts -_-
There are still really good players who could make it farther if they weren't losing to Diddy's like Felix/Gnes/etc.
 

ADHD

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It's even and will always be even. If you try to land directly behind me I'm going to glide toss it down so you land on it and eat a smash.
 

Jem.

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ADHD I just can't believe the matchup is even. I'm convinced its 55-45 MK favor. No MK has truly learned that they can use diddys bananas against him. They will all say "No, I have!" but they dont use the bananas correctly. Diddy without bananas = vulnerable, and I hope someday I can play you to see how I fair since I only get to play Felix :)
 

Max Ketchum

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As limited as Diddy is without the bananas, MK is also severely limited while holding one.

Edit, so people don't think I'm crazy:

MK can't control the bananas nearly as well as Diddy Kong can. His glide toss, while long and efficient for crossing the stage, is not well-suited for use with bananas and really won't do all that much for him aside from guaranteeing a grab or one hit, unless the other banana happens to be near him post-glide toss. While he's holding one, he can't utilize his entire arsenal of A moves or grabs. He can't abuse his tilts on the shield for pressure. He can't throw or hit Diddy offstage. He has access to banana throws and special moves--it's already been proven that Diddy is extremely apt at punishing tornado and shuttle loop.

If MK wants to drop the banana briefly to have his full moveset, Diddy still most likely has the other banana. In addition, this sacrifices time on the banana that MK holds control of. Once that timer runs, Diddy is free to produce a new banana, and MK has to put in quite a bit of work to get his hands on it.
 
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I'm sure this is already known, but MK can chain with a banana in hand.

What I mean is that if you're in the air, you Zdrop, and you catch the banana again with an aerial, you can mash whatever aerial you want as much as you want (with the exception of Fair and Bair, which you can only use once) without dropping the banana.

You can also air dodge and drop a banana at the same time (just like TL's iBomb). What's cool about MK's iBomb is that he can re-catch the banana with an aerial just after the air dodge animation is done. That means that he can chain/Instant Throw right after an iBomb.

Just sayin'.
 

Max Ketchum

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That stuff about the aerials is interesting (and true). In that case, MK loses his ground game.
 
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