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Metagame Minute, DI Part 4, Out Now! 12/13/2011 UPDATE!

~ Gheb ~

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I would guess that's because the input of the bair also makes Wolf drift towards the blast zone a little. Some fair attacks [such as Pikachus] seem to reduce momentum but it's not the fair that does so but the directional input towards the stage - the attack itself doesn't change the momentum at all.

:059:
 

Yikarur

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oh you misunderstood
I didn't mean momentum to the blastzone.
he gets momentum to the stage like if he bairs twice he has his ordinary drifting speed to the stage but if he bairs once he is stucked in the knockback momentum a bit longer.
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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I was expecting a segment on B reversals like Zelda's neutralB, Fox's downB and maybe even some data on a move like ZSS's downB (it functions the same as Diddy's sideB for afaik) etc
 

Supreme Dirt

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Oh also some characters with path jumps will get slightly more or less momentum if they aerial during it.

Weird path jumps are weird.

Afaik the only characters with path jumps are Ness, Lucas, Yoshi, and Peach, though. And I have noticed that Ness and Lucas seem to live significantly longer than other characters of around the same weight...

idk maybe I just DI better with them, or I`m simply crazy.
 

JRC LSS

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it has really a use for some characters (notibly wolf)

create a big stage and do momentum cancel with Wolf
do one bair and hold to the stage
do two bairs and hold to the stage.
he gets far more momentum if he does the second bair. Didn't notice that for other characters though :/
So I made a big stage with big blocks running all across the bottom. I put mk and wolf on the left side and had mk fsmash wolf to the right. The percents are the highest percent that wolf survived at in training mode.

Holding left (toward the stage): 183%
Airdodging and holding left: 183%
Bair and holding left: 184%*
Two bairs and holding left: 183%
Bair and jumping left: 195%

*I could not consistently get him to this percent, it was usually 183%.
This indicates that bair cancels only a very tiny amount of momentum that probably wouldn't be relevant in a normal sized stage. Also, because I couldn't do it consistently at 1/4 speed, you probably need to be close to frame perfect for it to do anything. Double bair is likely the same way, although I never was able to get wolf to survive at 184%. I don't know how you concluded that it was better than one bair. Besides, there probably aren't many actual game situations where you would even have time to do two bairs.

Just for comparison I tested bair and then jumping and clearly it's much better than any of the other options.
 

Yikarur

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why do people always try highest kill% stuff when people talk about this topic?
the important thing with this is not to survive longer but to have better momentum for recovering.
 

JRC LSS

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why do people always try highest kill% stuff when people talk about this topic?
the important thing with this is not to survive longer but to have better momentum for recovering.
Because the hard numbers are the easiest way to do this objectively. You can easily compare two numbers, but it's much more wishy-washy when you same something like "this looks like it has less momentum than that". As far as getting in a better position for recovering-I know you would like to save your second jump for later, but if you're going to die otherwise, you're better off using it. My point still stands that bair barely does anything and that double bair is useless.

@Supreme Dirt: I did a quick test on Ness (same as I did on Wolf) and I could get him to survive with 1% more damage using nair then double jumb+fair vs. just nair then double jump. Like the test with Wolf, I couldn't do it consistently. I would imagine it's about the same for the other characters or using other aerials.
 

Yikarur

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Ness is a bad example because he has such a weird double jump :D

and you can see it objectively, you just need good eyes, it's a clear difference.
 

JRC LSS

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Ness is a bad example because he has such a weird double jump :D

and you can see it objectively, you just need good eyes, it's a clear difference.
I was just addressing what Supreme Dirt had said with the Ness thing.

With what you were saying, with bair and double bair helping momentum cancel, it's not a clear difference. It would be pretty difficult to post a video, so going by the kill percents is the best way to explain it right now. The numbers don't lie.
 

Ghostbone

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I was just addressing what Supreme Dirt had said with the Ness thing.

With what you were saying, with bair and double bair helping momentum cancel, it's not a clear difference. It would be pretty difficult to post a video, so going by the kill percents is the best way to explain it right now. The numbers don't lie.
I'd say the reason Ness survives longer with DJfair is because the fair would cancel the double jump animation, which probably affects his "death bubble" or whatever you want to call it.
I'd suspect any character living longer with a certain aerial is due to how they move around during the aerial.

Anyway you can't drift during an aerial until your knockback actually ends, so there's no bonus to using an aerial compared to an air-dodge (except for the fact you can fastfall) for characters who's air-dodge ends faster than their aerial would.
So basically if you mess up your DI (which happens often, and is good to prepare for) as someone like Snake, it's good to know you can air-dodge > DJ and live longer than if you tried to aerial > DJ.
 

Cassio

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Important

To be quite honest it would make the most sense if jump didnt do anything to affect surviving horizontally. Im glad someone finally tested this to confirm. Only issue I had is why DIing to stretch your path helps while jumping would not. Video helped fix the error I was making, shouldve realized it earlier :p.

Maybe some people already know all this.

The issue is that something that only affects verticle kinetics (like jumping) should have no affect on horizontal kinetics. i.e. regardless of how long the overall path is it should take the same amount of time to die off the side if your horizontal distance and speed does not change. Unless jumping directly reduces knockback it should change neither (only verticle).

Why? For one its how physics works in real life. Secondly a long long time ago colinfj did a ton of research supporting that this was how physics worked in smash as well. Lastly it would be extremely complicated for horizontal kinetics and verticle kinetics to be dependant on each other, I wont even get into that because of how unlikely it is.

DI is less to do with the path and more to do with the way force is distributed. If force is determined by percent and attack power itll come at a fixed amount. DI determines how that force is distributed between the x and y axis. If an attack has a force of 140 units and you'd die with 100 units of force verticly and 120 units of force horizontally youre gone if you travel straight on either axis. However the diagnol takes over 150 units of force to reach. DI allows you to distrubute the 140 units of force so that you wont reach either axis. However if youre already traveling with 140 units of force at the horizontal axis, adding a verticle force wont change the the fact that youre traveling 140 towards the axis.
 

Flayl

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you're joking right?

try jumping in one direction, then double jump the other

when you double jump you're applying a force to the character, that force doesn't just have a vertical component
 

GimR

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This is why I don't like to do videos on subjects that already have a lot of data on them. If I don't add one thing, people jump on me like I killed some one.

Also, why do people expect me to add every B-move that helps cancel momentum? This is a general video for beginners that explains the concept. I should've said some B-moves increase momentum, and I should've said that double jumping helps if you aim yourself down more horizontally.
 

Cassio

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At what point does jumping or double jumping have a horizontal movement component? Answer: it doesnt unless theres something researchers have found. But as far as I know no ones claimed it does.

The claim was that jumping increases your path to the blastzone. While technically true, this shouldnt have any affect on horizontal momentum or the time it takes to reach the side blastzone since all components jumping adds are verticle.
 

Yikarur

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At what point does jumping or double jumping have a horizontal movement component? Answer: it doesnt unless theres something researchers have found. But as far as I know no ones claimed it does.

The claim was that jumping increases your path to the blastzone. While technically true, this shouldnt have any affect on horizontal momentum or the time it takes to reach the side blastzone since all components jumping adds are verticle.
you're wrong, I have already "proven" that DJing helps you to hut horizontal momentum.
what are you even talking about? when you press jump + left/right in the air you clearly jump into a horizontal (+vertical) direction, without knockback it cancels your whole momentum in one horizontal direction.
 

Mr. Doom

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Eagerly awaiting the SDI videos. I presume one will be up next Monday or the Monday afterward?
 

Cassio

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you're wrong, I have already "proven" that DJing helps you to hut horizontal momentum.
what are you even talking about? when you press jump + left/right in the air you clearly jump into a horizontal (+vertical) direction, without knockback it cancels your whole momentum in one horizontal direction.
If youre in the air and press left or right you will move left or right regardless of if you jump. I dont see how jumping determines how you hold the joystick. And increasing your overall path to the blastzone does not affect how fast youll reach a horizontal destination if youre only adding verticle distance. That's just..mathematics.

As I already said the only thing that would make sense is if jumping literally works against/halts existing momentum. Although it'd need to explain how momentum is ever maintained after jumping.
 

JRC LSS

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If youre in the air and press left or right you will move left or right regardless of if you jump. I dont see how jumping determines how you hold the joystick. And increasing your overall path to the blastzone does not affect how fast youll reach a horizontal destination if youre only adding verticle distance. That's just..mathematics.

As I already said the only thing that would make sense is if jumping literally works against/halts existing momentum. Although it'd need to explain how momentum is ever maintained after jumping.
Without a joystick input, yes, there would be only a vertical component to the jump. With a joystick input though (which is what everyone is talking about), jumping would have a horizontal component and would therefore affect your horizontal momentum. You can try this yourself if you don't believe it.
 

Ghostbone

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As I already said the only thing that would make sense is if jumping literally works against/halts existing momentum. Although it'd need to explain how momentum is ever maintained after jumping.
Yes, in Brawl, it literally does.
Brawl isn't real life, physics work differently.
Case closed.
 

Yikarur

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you have 3 jump directions

left, neutral and right.
it's not the "ordinary" momentum for holding the stick in a direction, the jump has a inherent direction.
like I said if you hold right and input a double jump left you cancel your whole momentum to the right.
DJ too good.
 

GimR

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Yikurar, could you explain the phenomena where if you get hit past a certain momentum, moves that usually help cancel momentum now have absolutely no effect on momentum and some times make things worst?

For example, at certain percents Diddy can easliy survive an attack using B-air to Forward-B. But, if you add just one more percent he dies no matter what and it seems that the side B now propels him into the blast zone like Fox's shine
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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The thing with Diddy's SideB and ZSS' DownB is that it propels you backwards then cancels all your momentum.
So, while overall you might cancel more momentum, you have to consider the small backwards boost at the startup.
 

Cassio

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Yes, in Brawl, it literally does.
Brawl isn't real life, physics work differently.
Case closed.
Umm, kinetics in brawl works very similarly to kinetics in physics. ColinFJ even modeled a program that can calculate knockback. Nice try though.
you have 3 jump directions

left, neutral and right.
it's not the "ordinary" momentum for holding the stick in a direction, the jump has a inherent direction.
like I said if you hold right and input a double jump left you cancel your whole momentum to the right.
DJ too good.
I wasnt aware of this, I just assumed momentum was carried over. What I am curious to know though is does it enhance or replace the acceleration from drifting? And if it replaces are you certain that the reverse acceleration is greater than the reverse acceleration from drifting for all characters? Is it even the same acceleration for all characters?
 

Ghostbone

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Umm, kinetics in brawl works very similarly to kinetics in physics. ColinFJ even modeled a program that can calculate knockback. Nice try though.
How does brawl have similar kinetics to real life >.>
Being able to calculate knockback in no way means Brawl has similar force and movement properties to real life.
And I'm telling you, jumps cancel momentum (might have to do with what Yikarur said), doesn't matter if they only go vertically.

I wasnt aware of this, I just assumed momentum was carried over. What I am curious to know though is does it enhance or replace the acceleration from drifting? And if it replaces are you certain that the reverse acceleration is greater than the reverse acceleration from drifting for all characters? Is it even the same acceleration for all characters?
Drifting doesn't do anything during knockback >.>
 

Isatis

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ColinFJ even modeled a program that can calculate knockback.
He did? If it's modeled on the Smash Lab's old knockback formula, it's false because the formula contains a lot of mathematical errors and was disregarded.
 

JRC LSS

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Yikurar, could you explain the phenomena where if you get hit past a certain momentum, moves that usually help cancel momentum now have absolutely no effect on momentum and some times make things worst?

For example, at certain percents Diddy can easliy survive an attack using B-air to Forward-B. But, if you add just one more percent he dies no matter what and it seems that the side B now propels him into the blast zone like Fox's shine
Yeah, like what Brosuke said, the startup of the move sends you backwards a little bit. So over short distances, monkey flip will be worse for survival than just jumping. Over longer distances, when you have enough hang time for the move to propel you forward, side-B will be better for momentum canceling than just jumping. I'm not sure of the exact point at which monkey flip become better than jumping, although after some rough testing I think it's a little more than the distance from the center of FD to the side edge.

Also, just to be clear, monkey flip will slow you down but it doesn't cancel all your momentum.
 

Cassio

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He did? If it's modeled on the Smash Lab's old knockback formula, it's false because the formula contains a lot of mathematical errors and was disregarded.
I believe it was all work he did on his own + one or two other people. Unless the smashlab adopted it from his original research? Its still old though so very well could have errors.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210557
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=216700
How does brawl have similar kinetics to real life >.>
Being able to calculate knockback in no way means Brawl has similar force and movement properties to real life.
And I'm telling you, jumps cancel momentum (might have to do with what Yikarur said), doesn't matter if they only go vertically.


Drifting doesn't do anything during knockback >.>
lol
 

Gardex

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This is why I don't like to do videos on subjects that already have a lot of data on them. If I don't add one thing, people jump on me like I killed some one.

Also, why do people expect me to add every B-move that helps cancel momentum? This is a general video for beginners that explains the concept. I should've said some B-moves increase momentum, and I should've said that double jumping helps if you aim yourself down more horizontally.
And mention that airdodging is beneficial to some characters.
 

GimR

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Alright guys, I may have to delay the rest of the DI videos for a little while. I'm finishing updating the VGBootCamp stream for a tournament Wednesday and it's going to take a lot of work until Wednesday to do it. Also, I might have a job on every weekend from the 24th until the end of October. So yeah. I'm REAAAAALYYYY Busy
 

Laem

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Poor GIMR.
But yeah the exclusion of DJ is really dumb and I would very much like to laugh at this SmashLab (of all people..)-moron who said it didn't do anything.

And ****ing hell cassio, stop the nameswitching. 50% of the time I think there's a new ******* it's just you, again.
 

B.A.M.

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Seeing as its going to take a LONG LONG time for GIMR to be free, I really think Smash Labs should release that thread in the meantime. If it has the quality stuff they claim, I do think we should get that to the community quickly.
 

Isatis

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I gotta talk to GIMR on some stuff, I actually asked him to do the videos because he could explain things more clearly than I can and with more tools, but I think I can take over from here.
 

GimR

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Laem. The double jump part was mostly my fault.


Me and bionic are talking about how to rap this up.

:phone:
 
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