Metagame Minute, DI Part 4, Out Now! 12/13/2011 UPDATE!

[GimR]

You can air dodge out of hitstun faster than you can aerial, right? Do you have a list of characters where air dodge is better than the aerial? If not, do you about Diddy? Last question: is mid air jump or side-b better for Diddy to do or maybe midair jump directly into side-b?

Air dodge is never better because you can't Fast fall or drift during an air dodge. Double jump, I've been told, actually doesn't help and some times makes it worst.

Diddy's side B is weird, it helps until he gets to a certain momentum. Once he actually gets to that momentum he can't survive the attack and the sideB actually pushes him towards the death boundaries even more.

For example, let's say Diddy can easily survive Metaknight's Dsmash at 130% by using side-B after B-air. if he reaches that specific momentum at 131% he will not be able to survive at that position. So even though he easily survived with 1 percent less, Side-Bing at 131% actually kind of catapults him.


^^Remember that was an example, the percentages are actually wrong.

 

[GimR]

I'm disappointed, you shouldn't have posted this yet. I don't like incomplete things and you've missed stuff :/

what did I miss? Double jumping doesn't help. I've noticed this from my own tests, and Stealth Raptor confirmed my suspicions. I'm not saying double jumping makes things worst though.

 

[-LzR-]

Isn't the whole point of the double jump to move yourself farther from the blastzone to have more time to survive?

 

[Ripple]

Isn't the whole point of the double jump to move yourself farther from the blastzone to have more time to survive?

that's what I've always thought

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I thought that some characters were better off airdodging into a momentum-canceling B move due to a combination of long-animation aerials and bad horizontal aerial mobility (or "drifting," as it's referred to here).

 

[-LzR-]

Who for example?

 

[Ripple]

I remember hearing that snake is the only one it's better to air dodge with and only horzontally

 

[Player-1]

Someone on the Diddy boards did a test with DI a while ago and IIRC midair jump did help Diddy, at least in the situation tested and if his DI was consistent throughout the testing.

 

[Kewkky]

Isn't the whole point of the double jump to move yourself farther from the blastzone to have more time to survive?

But jumping doesn't move your character anywhere but up. Its effects are the same as characters with dairs that send them straight downwards: after you get hit with an attack and are sent flying in whatever direction, momentum cancelling with that dair/another attack and then dair will not shift your momentum at all. Same thing happens with certain characters when they come out of hitstun (momentum cancelling works too), jump and then use their dair: the momentum from the attack doesn't shift their trajectory at all (although funny stuff happens).

Or at least, that's what I've been thinking so far. Either way, saving your jump for recovering is a better idea anyway.

 

[-LzR-]

But if your DI isn't perfect, you can't closer to the corner to make the blastzone a little bit farther away to help you survive.

 

[Player-1]

Someone on the Diddy boards did a test with DI a while ago and IIRC midair jump did help Diddy, at least in the situation tested and if his DI was consistent throughout the testing.

Found the post:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12718006&postcount=10


GIMR, I'd trust your word over his since you actually have the equipment and stuff that test it, but I just want to make sure so you're saying that those findings are wrong?

 

[Kewkky]

But if your DI isn't perfect, you can't closer to the corner to make the blastzone a little bit farther away to help you survive.

Then you survive instead of dying, and now you drift towards the stage and are at the mercy of your opponent. You just lost a very important option you could've used to recover, and will probably die because of it. Who knows, maybe you wouldnt've hit the blast zone whether you jumped or not.

 

[Yikarur]

meh.

DJ reduces momentum, thats common knowledge and was never to doubt.
the phenomen of DJ getting you killed earlier is related to the blastzones.
if you DI too high and jump too early your DJ shoots you right into the blastzone.

the phenomen occured in the Wolf Boards when they thought that Nair is > Bair in momentum canceling even so bair lasts shorter by a lot, because they always buffered the double jump and when they used bair they jumped right into their death while nair lasted very long and so the double jump came when he was out of this "killzone".

the rules shown in the momentum cancel video are rules for the absolute highest % (with jump missing). The rules differ at lower%.

your jump should only be used if you're sure to not survive without because the DJ is the most important resource while recovering. (you learn if you die or not die with experience)

you should airdodge instead of fast fall if you are sure to survive anyway. Most airdodge are even the fastest option out of hitstun.
If you fast fall aerial the fast fall is active the whole time, it's a disadvantage while recovering because you can't adjust your fall speed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yika is right on this everybody else is wrong.

Farewell, cruel world.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I have a question...

Do certain aerials cause you to die earlier due to shifting your body? Like, say, if Wolf does his B-Air, does the outstretched leg cause him to die off the side earlier? Would Snake's B-Air make it more difficult for him to die off the top than with another aerial?

 

[Yikarur]

no, it's a certain inner bubble that let you die if you touch the blastzone, this bubble (I call it bubble, not confirmed what shape it has lol) is independend from the hurtbox.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yeah your appendages has no effect on how you die.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Sonic's Spindash B moves would have been good examples for this video

I have a couple of gripes with this video in that
-Double jumping isn't mentioned anywhere which I thought had been proven to be crucial in Momentum Cancelling when it comes to avoiding the horizontal boundaries. I was very disappointed that it wasn't mentioned

-In the Diddy and Wario example, I would have thought that they would have survived if you'd double jumped after the aerial, it certainly looks like it. Do you end up killing yourself if you jump in that example?

-FD is not a big enough stage for these examples, imo you would have been better off using a much larger custom stage that allowed us to better see the characters recovering/dieing/distances avoided when using different options rather than have them in magnifying glass


Double jumping is only bad if you're close to the ceiling/being hit vertically iirc, it's been a while since I looked at any of this


I absolutely love your Metagame Minute videos GIMR but sadly, I feel like this one is missing a lot of information and pales in comparison to this video infzy posted ages ago

 

[teluoborg]

Do you have a list of characters where air dodge is better than the aerial?

Why yes, yes I have.

[collapse=Hidden list]

[/collapse]
Source is nothing.'s blog on AIB
http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=4377

Sincerely,
teluoborg, knowledge necromancer since 09.

 

[GimR]

@Yikurar: so if some one aims into the corner like they're supposed to and momentum cancels with an aerial then double jumping would be a bad idea correct?

 

[Yikarur]

if you DI too high yes, but you can combine aerial, fast fall and jump so that you can survive much longer.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This whole mechanic has also led me to the assumption that deathzones aren't rectangular but rather octagons. Seems like I was wrong about that though.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I have a question for drifting. Is drifting sensitive to how close to left or right on the control stick you are?
Such as would I get less drift affect by holding upper left instead of simply left?

 

[Yikarur]

no not at all :0

 

[GimR]

if you DI too high yes, but you can combine aerial, fast fall and jump so that you can survive much longer.

Are you saying that the momentum gained from double jumping is so important that it's actually better to but yourself at a worse angle?

What I'm asking is,

what's more important?


Making the distance between yourself and the blast zone as long as possible

or

making it shorter and now being able to use double jump to momentum cancel



which one is definitely better, and, if a character has a B-move that can save them wouldn't it be better to use the B-move + Longer distance instead of the double jump?


Also, to be fair, I had the double jump thing in the original script but some one from the smash lab said it didn't help. When that person said it didn't help no one else in the chat disagreed with his claim

 

[Myollnir]

You didn't even mention the BSide reverse in your video, doesn't it help?
Idk if it works with any character though.

 

[Tesh]

If double jumping really is bad, you should have put that in the video with visual proof. This won't really make for a great guide for beginners if you aren't thorough.

 

[Yikarur]

sorry that I'm european and am not only at 3am in my time (which is about 9pm in US)

the DI and DJ Question is important, you don't always die from DJing. it depends on how fast you fly and stuff.
most of the time you can DI at the optimal angle and still DJ without DIing.
it's really.. relative
the distance you cut for double jumping is about 2 Custom Stages blocks and thats a lot o:

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

If I didn't play Dedede then I'd worry about using a DJ to avoid death.

For other people though, I'd rather save the jump for recovering.

 

[Yikarur]

you only DJ if you would die otherwise.

 

[Kewkky]

You didn't even mention the BSide reverse in your video, doesn't it help?
Idk if it works with any character though.

Actually, yes it helps. Pretty tricky though.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

what i want to know is if jump -> fair is better then jump. ive seen a lot of top players use it and swear by it

 

[infiniteV115]

This is why everyone should play G&W.
Nobody would have to worry about whether or not they should DJ. XD

Also, in infzy's video, he said that not only do G&W and DK have a b-move that will completely halt all momentum (bucket and ...monkey tornado respectively), but Yoshi's side-b does the same thing. Did you exclude that because it would pretty much lead to certain death?

I hope you make another video on momentum cancelling. This one is good, but I feel like a lot is missing. eg mentioning why air dodge is worse than aerials, people might look at the first video and say "air dodges come out 12 frames earlier therefore air dodges are better for momentum cancelling!" They might think the frame advantage will outweigh the lack of drifting or something.
Also showing why moves like Fox's shine, counter for Marth Ike Peach Lucario, etc are bad. They give a boost towards the deathzone, which is why they're bad, but you didn't mention that in the video. Some people might think these moves help since they cause you to slow down/stop in midair.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Some people seem worried about dying from the double jump... couldn't you DI just below the optimal corner and subsequently jump into the corner? You'd get the benefits from jumping without the risk of dying, right? This is of course, putting aside the concerns of getting back onstage without your character's second jump...

 

[DeLux]

I think from a geometrical stand point, you would ideally use your fast fall to hit slightly below the corner and then use your double jump to go slightly above the corner or vice versa

Since you are no longer making a straight line to the farthest point, it further increases how far you have to travel in order to meet your destiny



*disclaimer: haven't tested, just speculating on theory

 

[Flayl]

Hahaha, it's like people are rediscovering the wheel here.

The research has already been done, why all the conjecture?

 

[JRC LSS]

Kinda disappointing how incomplete this was. Most things have already been mentioned, like double jumping helping and airdodge being better for several characters. I thought it was odd that you mentioned some momentum cancelling specials, but not all of them (pikachu, luigi, and jiggs come to mind). I'd also like to just point out that drifting is the same whether you airdodge, aerial, or do nothing at all. Also, although, double jumping may kill you off the top in some cases, you only were only showing tests for the ideal (corner) trajectory. In all other cases, where DI to such an angle was missed or impossible, double jumping will help you live longer. As far as vertical MCing, you could have made it more clear that you need to do any aerial before fastfalling to make it work.

 

[Ripple]

what i want to know is if jump -> fair is better then jump. ive seen a lot of top players use it and swear by it

I believe magus can attest that fairing while recovering does nothing to aid recovery

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Charizard appears to move a little extra upward if he uses U-Air while moving up from a jump.

 

[Yikarur]

it has really a use for some characters (notibly wolf)

create a big stage and do momentum cancel with Wolf
do one bair and hold to the stage
do two bairs and hold to the stage.
he gets far more momentum if he does the second bair. Didn't notice that for other characters though :/