Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[DMG]

Dsmash, even when fully spaced, is not completely safe. M2K even demonstrated this when Kel Dsmashed his shield, and M2K replied with dash attack/dash grab/Ftilt.

 

[Staco]

Uh, yeah. Watched the videos again and noticed.

And next time pls give me a solution first instead of beeing a stupid troll. <<

(be happy about somebody posting in this death thread it was just an idea and I should have checked the video again, before posting; Ill do next time)

 

[Affinity]

The re-discussions will be back soon. Almost done with the empty match-ups in the OP.

 

[cutter]

Uh, yeah. Watched the videos again and noticed.

And next time pls give me a solution first instead of beeing a stupid troll. <<

(be happy about somebody posting in this death thread it was just an idea and I should have checked the video again, before posting; Ill do next time)

We've known that Dsmash is unsafe on block for a very long time now, ever since we got the frame data for it. That's why a few people lashed out at you like that, because even I always thought MK's Dsmash being unsafe on block has been common knowledge for some time.

 

[Palpi]

Doesn't a full f-tilt shield poke better anyway?

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

well you can stop after ftilt 1 and be at a much smaller disadvantage.

 

[Max Ketchum]

First hit of ftilt is still -19 on block.

 

[Palpi]

What I meant was, doesn't is shield poke better, so if on a weaker sheild would it be safer, if completed?

 

[DMG]

What is frame disadvantage inbetween first hit and second hit? Like, if you use Ftilt on someone's shield and you are inputting the hits as soon as possible to where they come out the first frame possible, what is your disadvantage going from 1-2 and then 2-3? I'm trying to figure out who can punish MK inbetween his Ftilt hits besides Marth with Upb OOS.

 

[Max Ketchum]

The ftilts come out on frames 3, 6, and 9 if done as fast as possible with one frame of shieldstun on each.

Palpi, I was talking to dj Iskascribble. But I think ftilt/dsmash are both equally good for shieldpoking. Ftilt is a better POKE, which doesn't mean the same thing. I'd say dtilt, drill rush and tornado are MK's best shield poking moves.

 

[OverLade]

What is frame disadvantage inbetween first hit and second hit? Like, if you use Ftilt on someone's shield and you are inputting the hits as soon as possible to where they come out the first frame possible, what is your disadvantage going from 1-2 and then 2-3? I'm trying to figure out who can punish MK inbetween his Ftilt hits besides Marth with Upb OOS.

I've extensively looked at this and nobody can punish it. Funny enough it was this that changed my mind about the MK snake matchup (though is drastically changes a lot of other matchups). Ftilt is basically an unpunisheable move minus by MK and Marth (It may even slightly outrange marths up B) and since it has laser priority, basically nothing beats it EXCEPT human reaction time. It's not hard for Snake/MK to dash attack a mispaced Ftilt as most people will have trouble reacting fast enough to beat it (and even then it might clash).

Once you hit someones shield with Ftilt though, you're basically completely safe as long as you watch their shield.

 

[DMG]

Ok so that means only 2 frames to punish right? Hmm... interesting.

Now also, how long can MK delay the initiation of the next hits? That and how much lag, if any, does he have after he crosses the delayed point where he cannot do anything? (I'll use Snake for an example. Snake can delay the second hit of Ftilt for a fairly long time, but after a certain point he is where he cannot activate the second hit of Ftilt nor Shield/do anything else. I'm trying to figure out this for MK).

I'm only refrencing Snake to hopefully explain better what I am trying to figure out about MK, not because I think you guys are dumb and don't already know Snake can delay his Ftilt lol.

Edit: Halberd I thought so, I've noticed too many people get close to MK and try to grab him inbewteen hits and they always get stabbed it seems lol.

 

[OverLade]

According to Frame Data rather than human reaction, I don't think it's possible to punish from Ftilt out of shield (minus UpB OOS from Marth and MK and mabye Mario/Wario depending on spacing). The amount of lag time seems almost non existant between when you can still do the second hit and do something else. It's basically up to MK to screw up.

If MKs are Ftilt happy jumping over them and punishing (similar treatedment to Dsmash) seems to be the best option. But mixup wise MK has options for that...but when does he not have more options?

 

[Palpi]

The ftilts come out on frames 3, 6, and 9 if done as fast as possible with one frame of shieldstun on each.

Palpi, I was talking to dj Iskascribble. But I think ftilt/dsmash are both equally good for shieldpoking. Ftilt is a better POKE, which doesn't mean the same thing. I'd say dtilt, drill rush and tornado are MK's best shield poking moves.

Yeah I know what you're saying. I am just trying to get as many applications for f-tilt in my head, because I think I underuse it. All my practice comes from diddy kong and find a spot for f-tilt can be difficult sometimes in that match-up. We NEED to play at koshaboy.

 

[Cold Fusion]

So who is next on the line-up for discussion?

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

maybe we should do DK?

 

[smasher01]

Lets do diddy kong
and update the first page with new info plz.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

diddys been done already

 

[Max Ketchum]

Doesn't matter, the matchups are continuously changing.

I'm not even sure that it's worth having specific discussions anymore...I think this should be an open matchup debate thread.

 

[smasher01]

Doesn't matter, the matchups are continuously changing.

I'm not even sure that it's worth having specific discussions anymore...I think this should be an open matchup debate thread.

We could do that.
But lets not forget to update the first page.

 

[Affinity]

Go for it

 

[Cold Fusion]

Instead of having an open discussion thread, how about threads for specific match-ups are created? That way, if any discussion needs to be revived, it will not clog up whatever is being discussed.

 

[Toronto Joe]

i wouldnt mind doing TL

 

[Roxas1988]

I found some of the match ups helpful. I just hate fighting snakes. And believe it or not pika is pretty annoying. I could give some help with the thread as well. I know a guy who has a lot of info on pikachu.

 

[smasher01]

Snakes really easy to fight (kinda not really lol) its mostly all about spacing.

Just air camp than RANDOMLY come in for a 100% combo (keep snake in the air best way to do that is to throw him off the stage and force him to up-b up high than Uair combo)

save your kill moves but dont try to force them or you will get f-tilt combod

Does anyone have any tricks to fighting snake?

 

[Staco]

Combo him, try to hold him up, space your aerials, so that you wont hit granads (even if he falls down and pulls one out).
Use your change for a gimp, if you get him offstage.

Try to get early kills. (Gimp or Uair, when he recovers)

 

[saviorslegacy]

Just curious... what is your opinion on the Sheik match up?

 

[clowsui]

I think Sheik has an advantage on Metaknight

Fixed for what he's going to say.

 

[Palpi]

It isn't hard =/

 

[Deoxys]

Fixed for what he's going to say.

Do you actually know that that's his opinion?

I'm not sure how good the Shieks I've played were, but I think I just exploited superior reach and gimped and did well.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Do you actually know that that's his opinion?

I'm not sure how good the Shieks I've played were, but I think I just exploited superior reach and gimped and did well.

I think the match up is even unless we have the option of GR> DACUS. If we have that option then I think it is 45 :55.

I have already spent two pages debating so plz don't start one here. If you want my input read the Sheik character match up.

As far as gimping. Yes, that is a weakness for us.
As far as reach... yeah, but we have more speed that you,


I was just wanting MK mains opinion more on this subject.

 

[OverLade]

I have some videos against a Florida Sheik that I can upload later. He lives near me so I play the matchup weekly.

 

[Omni]

I don't like ratios so I won't give them.

Sheik is a wild card. She's got really unique tools to handling MK. Needles for pushing MK into the air and/or forcing him to approach. Good speed allowing her to react and punish while evading at the same time. Grab release to DACUS up-smash which kills at a fairly low %. F-tilt to whatever at low %'s. And just a whole bunch of other tricks like her up+b explosion hitbox and f-throw/b-throw sheningans that allow her to follow her throw with a free hit depending on the person's DI.

Sheik has a lot of novelty going for her. Regardless, MK still wrecks her if he understands her tricks. MK just needs to avoid playing a ground game with Sheik to prevent f-tilt locks and grab release combos. A good stage to ban against Sheik is FD to prevent her from needle camping.

The key is to pretty much get Sheik into the air since MK>Sheik in air-to-air combat. Just like any other character using Tornado under platforms is the best to break the shield and get her into the air. Knock her off the stage and treat her like Olimar in regards to how you edgeguard.

 

[Affinity]

60-40 MK. Probably 65-35.

 

[OverLade]

Notably, Sheik is one of the few characters that can kill MK out of a grab, so shield baiting when you're ahead doesn't work.

Learn to Smash DI/Jump out of tilt lock and you should only take about 25%.

Even fighting Sheik on the ground MK still does well as long as you're careful about the lag after your attacks (mainly Ftilt). I think Sheik doesn't have much of an answer to an aggressive MK. Sheik has no aerials that beat Tornado and falls fast so she has trouble jumping around it.

Like Omni said you can play this matchup like you would Ice climbers if you really want. Dair camp and tornado from platforms to set up damaging combos etc. Once Sheiks shield is weak you can continue to tornado (she doesn't have much to combat it with).

I'd say about 60/40 MK. Worse depending on the stage.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I don't like ratios so I won't give them.

Sheik is a wild card. She's got really unique tools to handling MK. Needles for pushing MK into the air and/or forcing him to approach. Good speed allowing her to react and punish while evading at the same time. Grab release to DACUS up-smash which kills at a fairly low %. F-tilt to whatever at low %'s. And just a whole bunch of other tricks like her up+b explosion hitbox and f-throw/b-throw sheningans that allow her to follow her throw with a free hit depending on the person's DI.

Sheik has a lot of novelty going for her. Regardless, MK still wrecks her if he understands her tricks. MK just needs to avoid playing a ground game with Sheik to prevent f-tilt locks and grab release combos. A good stage to ban against Sheik is FD to prevent her from needle camping.

The key is to pretty much get Sheik into the air since MK>Sheik in air-to-air combat. Just like any other character using Tornado under platforms is the best to break the shield and get her into the air. Knock her off the stage and treat her like Olimar in regards to how you edgeguard.

Hey, I bet you play <3.
What you stated is what I have been saying. Except I've been trying to figure out how to force MK to play on the ground.
I found out that a mixture of u-tilt's, Chain, well placed Vanishes and abuse of her second fastest jump speed to Uair is the key to this. It still makes to difficult.

With that in mind I say it is even except for maybe FD and SV where we can GR> DACUS and Needle Storm your landing.

60-40 MK. Probably 65-35.

I seriously did laugh at that.

 

[Affinity]

How well have you done against notable MKs in tournament?

 

[saviorslegacy]

How well have you done against notable MKs in tournament?

How well have you done agianst a notable Sheik?

Don't throw you experience around. It is the lamest excuse in a match up discussion.
We are talking about paper Sheik vs paper MK.

 

[Deoxys]

How well have you done agianst a notable Sheik?

Don't throw you experience around. It is the lamest excuse in a match up discussion.
We are talking about paper Sheik vs paper MK.

I wish I was at school in Manhattan again right now so I could find a notable Shiek to play and get back to you.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I wish I was at school in Manhattan again right now so I could find a notable Shiek to play and get back to you.

The problem is there aren't any notable Sheiks at M2K and Dojo's skill level.
MK is an awesome character and he is used by many pro's.

Sheik is also an awesome character but when people were choosing mains she was really really crappy as far as meta game. People focused to much on her nerfs instead of her buffs.

Now the game has progressed Sheik has brilliant assortment of options, AT's, glitches (and use's for those glitches) and good combo's. The only problem is every single Sheik out there only focus's on a small part of her instead of using her fully.


<3 is good but he doesn't Chain, f-tilt> USmash or DACUS much

Tristan is good all around but he can't Chain Jack (Ryoko can)

Neo doesn't chain, Chacin Jack or f-tilt> USmash

Light doesn't chain, f-tilt> USmash or Chain Jack

Gimpyfish doesn't chain, f-tilt lock, DACUS, Chain Jack or f-tilt> USmash

Furthermore, no one really Chain camps or keeps track of their decay. Tristan does some but he is like the only one (well, I do too).
On top of that there are many tricks that she can do that go ignored.
No one fully use's Sheik, no one.
So basing the analysis on tourney results is like comparing 70% of France's population to 100% of Germany's population. It just doesn't come out right.


Tristan and I are shooting for a Sheik that use's every option. All we need to do is perfect our game and get more experience. Since I have almost no tourney experience and he has little it will take a little while.



Also, I mean no offense to anyone. I kinda feel bad for what I said to Affinity but I wanted to make a point.