Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[xDD-Master]

I'm gonna record a match of me beating a planking DK on YI:B with Olimar.

Do it!

Will looking forward to see it. When can you do it? Who will be the DK? Tell him to Mix-up

 

[Mikhas]

Camping is just as broken in melee as in Brawl.
Just sayin

Gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there. I've seen successful camping only a handful of times in Melee. Being on the ledge is a disadvantage in Melee, unlike in Brawl, and the risks involved in attacking are less, as well as there being fewer defensive options like multiple air dodges. This all leads to a more aggressive and fast-paced metagame.

 

[Battousai780]

But that kind of testing is not guaranteed to find a solution (or a problem). Technically, the same applies to tournament play, but it's much more likely for tournament play with unrestricted ledge access to find planking stuff than it is in friendlies/LGL environments if only because tournaments have stronger incentives to find planking related things. Finding the answer to someone planking you when hundreds or thousands of dollars are possibly on the line is a strong motivator compared to "Well he can kinda plank me but a LGL puts a cap on it, I'm not that worried about it".


Either way, what's true is that the overall general knowledge Brawl players understand about planking is fairly low. At the same time, it's not reasonable for people to have "really covered" stuff like Olimar vs DK or characters not as developed in that area as the top 3-5. Sure, maybe the generals about how DK's planking works and the same for other characters should be more known, but not in depth frame mechanics, hitbox analysis, surefire counters and complete mixup analysis, etc. That kind of stuff is NOT something you would or should expect even fairly strong players to definitely know.

This discussion boils down to matchup experience. If you have the matchup experience against a certain character, you should be able to know their planking options. The metagame is the metagame and we all have a general idea of how to play the game and how the opponent will play the game. Mostly everything is out there for people to see. If something excels in usefulness it gains attention. Watching videos suffices in learning the options a character has (though execution of how to counter these can still only be learned by playing.)

 

[da K.I.D.]

successful camping in brawl is basically doing damage from full screen.

successful camping in melee is running away constantly, and than once the guy does something laggy, you run in and combo them to hell and back for a stock.

melee is just as campy as brawl, but the reward is way higher so sometimes people dont notice.

 

[Get Low]

I gotta hand it to the URC. I actually think it's kind of cool how they were able to establish themselves as such a large, manipulative force in the Brawl community. They remind me of the Illuminati in a way, because they fused themselves into the higher ranks of the community and manipulate how Brawl players play the game, like how the Illuminati supposedly fuses their way into our government and controls how the human population acts. (If you're not a conspiracy theory buff like me then you're probably not going to understand this post, lol.)

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Well gee, if only that didn't take 2 more years than it needed too, then maybe half the community who used to play back then wouldn't have quit like I did.

 

[Ripple]

I will record an olimar trying to get me off the ledge. How about that instead? An ex-dk main

 

[Mikhas]

successful camping in brawl is basically doing damage from full screen.

successful camping in melee is running away constantly, and than once the guy does something laggy, you run in and combo them to hell and back for a stock.

melee is just as campy as brawl, but the reward is way higher so sometimes people dont notice.

Waiting for your opponent to do something laggy and attacking is called "punishing," a concept which is foreign to the competitive Brawl scene, so I understand your confusion. The "running away" part is like pokes in traditional fighting games.

 

[Lunatsu]

....... I will use sonic i think....... but. in SSB 4 meta knight will be banned or he isnt be there? what will be happened with the people that use MK (M2K)? Snake is the new king of brawl??

 

[da K.I.D.]

rofl nobody knows how to punish in brawl.

alright buddy, whatever you say.

 

[Lunatsu]

im still thinking that isnt fair and with out meta it would be boring.........

 

[ElDominio]

.blablahblah

Is it me or does your sig say "I Will Back Soon"????

 

[MarKO X]

rofl nobody knows how to punish in brawl.

alright buddy, whatever you say.

Well, the average max punish in Brawl is smaller than the average max punish in many other fighting games. So it's not so much that no one knows how to punish in Brawl so much as it is getting punished in Brawl isn't necessarily as big of a deal as it could be.

Is it me or does your sig say "I Will Back Soon"????

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc141/Tsuki_016/images2.jpg

yup.

 

[swordgard]

Take him to FD and CP him with ICs or Diddy

MK wins there too -.-

 

[Youngling]

i vote hyperfalcon for #1 ****** on smashboards

 

[stingers]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312108

 

[SaveMeJebus]

MK wins there too -.-

No he doesn't http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZaJv6ErgwA&t=10m3s

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Camping is just as broken in melee as in Brawl.
Just sayin

I lol'd.

Do it!

Will looking forward to see it. When can you do it? Who will be the DK? Tell him to Mix-up

This weekend. The DK is Allens (one of the best in Australia).

Well, the average max punish in Brawl is smaller than the average max punish in many other fighting games. So it's not so much that no one knows how to punish in Brawl so much as it is getting punished in Brawl isn't necessarily as big of a deal as it could be.

Depends how you define punishing.

Brawl is all about spacing and momentum, so while screwing up may not result in you taking lots of damage, it can definitely put you in a really bad position which can result in a loss, especially in campier match-ups.

No he doesn't http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZaJv6ErgwA&t=10m3s

I can see him going even with ICs on FD, but DEFINITELY not Diddy Kong.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy goes even with MK on FD. It's just that anyone who is smart will ban that stage against Diddy which is why you rarely see it at high level play

 

[Grim Tuesday]

namesearch ADHD and Gnes

Diddy loses to MK on FD just like he does on every other stage.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

this thread is now below my viewing threshold.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

^ That's what happens when people make really bad posts. You can tell when they have nothing better to do than insult a person and not add anything useful to the discussion. Odd thing, that.

Anyway, I've been looking for my SD Card. I definitely would love to try a lot of these hacks, admittably.(still wouldn't run a tourney with them, though. I have standards, after all.)

 

[El Duderino]

Anyway, I've been looking for my SD Card. I definitely would love to try a lot of these hacks, admittably.(still wouldn't run a tourney with them, though. I have standards, after all.)

Glad you are interested, it is always a good idea to explore what has others are excited about. There is a treasure trove of different ways to get added enjoyment out of the game. You are bound to find something that catches your interest, even if it's only at the cosmetic level.

But please refrain from implying anyone running Mod tournaments lacks standards. That is a direct insult to many tournament organizers that have run non-conventional events for fun and to the Mod developers, whose blood sweat and tears have made it possible. You are free to think what you wish, but lets keep it respectful.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Glad you are interested, it is always a good idea to explore what has others are excited about. There is a treasure trove of different ways to get added enjoyment out of the game. You are bound to find something that catches your interest.

But please refrain from implying anyone running Mod tournaments lacks standards. That is a direct insult to many tournament organizers that have run non-conventional events for fun and to the Mod developers, whose insane dedication has made it all possible. You are free to think what you wish, but lets keep it respectful.

Yes, I have standards. Mine are that cheating is to never be allowed in tournaments. I did not speak for anyone else. As a TO, I would never allow it.

And the only interest I have in the hacks is to unlock everything, honestly. It's a pain in the butt, really. For the main focus of the game, I just would rather play things out of the box. There was nothing so horrific to me that it needed changing.(besides banning, respectively, but hey, nearly every competitive game has had a ban before, so that's nothing new regardless, but let's not go further into that.) I mean, if it's for fun, sure, but I just can't stand manipulating things for anything competitive. But you understand why I don't approve of it.

 

[El Duderino]

Yes, I have standards. Mine are that cheating is to never be allowed in tournaments. I did not speak for anyone else. As a TO, I would never allow it.

That's fine so long as you are not trying to suggest anything here about other players and TOs that feel differently or like a change of pace. Everyone has standards, to imply others lack them would just be ridiculous. "I have my standards" would be the better word choice to prevent that sort of confusion in the future.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's fine so long as you are not trying to suggest anything here about other players and TOs that feel differently or like a change of pace.

To be fair, many of the TO's happen to share the same mindset.

Also, whoever said the Counter-Strike example used a very bad one. PC Mods were acceptable a long time ago, video game mods are another story. Likewise, both of his examples of "hacking being legal" were bad ones too.

The first one only applies to parts of the UK and has no effect on the US. The second one does not reflect the hacking. The problem was the game being put in. That was what the case was about. Not the hacking itself. Just the playing the game was never proven, (which was the focus of the entire case) and thus, the case was in favor of the hacker.

 

[El Duderino]

Also, whoever said the Counter-Strike example used a very bad one. PC Mods were acceptable a long time ago, video game mods are another story.

You do realise PC Mods are video games too right? How does being on a PC, on a fundamental level, make it any more acceptable? I'm sorry, I just don't see the logic here, it's a double standard.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Demoralise your argument and try to make it again HyperFalcon.

Do you have any argument against cheating other than "It is wrong because it is cheating. And cheating is wrong, therefore cheating is wrong"?

I won't even address the very incorrect idea that Mods are Cheating, I'll just start the deconstruction of this argument on the issue you seem to be avoiding addressing, rather than the one you are blowing as loud as a ram horn.

Just an analogy. You are not literally blowing your argument like a ram horn.

So yeah, do you have an argument that proves Cheating should not be done? "Because it's wrong" is a moral issue and entirely subjective.

For example, I could argue that eating my roommate is perfectly fine by demoralising the issue.

Humans need Nutrients to survive.
I am Human.
I need Nutrients to survive.

One way of obtaining Nutrients is Orally.
Eating is an oral method of ingesting substances.
One way of obtaining Nutrients is by eating things that contain them.

Humans are full of the Nutrients necessary for humans to survive.
My roommate is human.
My roommate is full of the Nutrients necessary for humans to survive.

It is easier to get sources of Nutrients that are close than those that are far away.
My roommate is close.
My roommate is a readily available and easily accessed source of nutrients.

Therefore, by eating my roommate, I am
1.) Getting all the Nutrients necessary for me to survive
2.) Saving effort that could have been wasted finding a further source of Nutrients
3.) Making great use of the source of Nutrients nearest to me.

I have thus proven, by demoralising the issue, that there is nothing illogical about eating my roommate.

Now.

Demoralise your argument. Why shouldn't people cheat?

 

[Vyse]

'Cheating' by loading hacks in brawl is only cheating (winning against the rules etc) when any number of the players involved enter the game/tournament unaware of the changes 'and' if these changes are against the rules.

When playing a brawl mod you aren't cheating because you aren't playing brawl. You're playing a game that you have acknowledged is inherently different and not preferential to the motives of anybody except the development team - however during the tournament authorial intent no longer matters, just as Sakurai's intent with brawl is irrelevant.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Vyse has the right idea here. Logical, sound, conclusive.

Also this has nothing to do with Metaknight or the URC

 

[Shadic]

Also, whoever said the Counter-Strike example used a very bad one. PC Mods were acceptable a long time ago, video game mods are another story.

The only difference is the fact that you consider them different.

Likewise, both of his examples of "hacking being legal" were bad ones too.

Let's see...

The first one only applies to parts of the UK and has no effect on the US.

Doesn't apply to "parts of the UK" it applied to the UK. And of course it only applied there, I was giving global precedent, otherwise you would surely complain "But this is only about the US! The poor PAL/___ players will be left out because it's oh so illegal there!"

The second one does not reflect the hacking. The problem was the game being put in. That was what the case was about. Not the hacking itself. Just the playing the game was never proven, (which was the focus of the entire case) and thus, the case was in favor of the hacker.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. This case ruled that a person has the alter hardware and software on a piece of equipment that they own, regardless of any "user agreements" that they "agree" to just by owning the thing.

If you can modify the firmware of a game console, you can alter a few spots in memory for a game. That minor leap in logic should be fairly obvious.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Also to say modding a computer and modding a VG Console are different is saying a video game system is not a computer, which is very incorrect.

 

[Black Mantis]

I lol'd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N5TRcR3ZtQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oqT2y4DRoo&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k

works of art

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So lets see here, we have two matches of the campiest Peach main (one of which is on the campiest stage against a character) and one isolated incident or a mid-level Puff timing out a Fox.

MELEE IS AS CAMPY AS BRAWL GUIZ.

 

[Battousai780]

Yes, I have standards. Mine are that cheating is to never be allowed in tournaments. I did not speak for anyone else. As a TO, I would never allow it.

And the only interest I have in the hacks is to unlock everything, honestly. It's a pain in the butt, really. For the main focus of the game, I just would rather play things out of the box. There was nothing so horrific to me that it needed changing.(besides banning, respectively, but hey, nearly every competitive game has had a ban before, so that's nothing new regardless, but let's not go further into that.) I mean, if it's for fun, sure, but I just can't stand manipulating things for anything competitive. But you understand why I don't approve of it.

4 things about mods and why it's not cheating:

Typically there are only 2 modifications to Brawl that occur in tourneys with the optional addition of a third.

1)Random tripping is eliminated to make the game more competitive, and fair. In no way is this change cheating for the mere fact that it accomplishes the opposite intent of cheating, and instead makes the game more fair. Also, this standard applies universally to all players (though it comes to my realization that this change could favor ground based characters over aerial ones, I think the difference is negligible/worth it).

2) Infinite replay codes are often used in order to save matches that last longer than 3 minutes (i think 3 mins). This code in no way changes any aspect of matches between players.

3) Aesthetic codes are sometimes used. Texture hacks and custom music can change the game aesthetically, but everything remains the same including hitboxes/hurtboxes.


The fourth mod is one that you keep bringing up as cheating.

4) All codes allowing the variations to Brawl mechanics. Examples of these codes are Brawl +, Brawl -, Project M. The argument stating that this code is "cheating" is proven illogical by two facts. The first fact is that because both players are playing this same, new modified game, players are on equal footing. Having equal standing is antonymous to cheating. Secondly, just because I can change the game mechanics to make a new game doesn't mean it's cheating because then every game made is somehow "cheating." All games are made with some elements of past video games with the addition of new ones. Things progress and change, or sometimes just change. To label a novel game as "cheating" means that every game that came after the first game is cheating. This logic is so ******** that I'm just stopping here.

 

[Black Mantis]

So lets see here, we have two matches of the campiest Peach main (one of which is on the campiest stage against a character) and one isolated incident or a mid-level Puff timing out a Fox.

MELEE IS AS CAMPY AS BRAWL GUIZ.

You can't ignore them and call them isolated incidents.
Defense wins fighting games, but not enough Melee players have the patience to abuse it.

 

[El Duderino]

Also this has nothing to do with Metaknight or the URC

Yeah, I think it's time we move the discussion to another thread.

Here's an idea. In light of recent events, it would be very useful to have a poll on what the community attendance would be like now for the various unofficial Brawl patches (not full conversions), that way TO's considering it have something more to go by than assumptions. I would make it, but I lack the Poll privileges. The answers could be say:

A. Yes, I would attend a Balenced Brawl event.
B. Yes, I would attend if the extent was removing tripping.
C. Not my preference, but it is still Brawl related so I would consider it.
D. No, do not care to play any of these in a tournament setting.

(or something similar)

I want to make it 100% clear now the purpose would not be to undermine the URC. The URC has their official rules and ultimately that is what URC tournaments must go by. This is more for everyone else and should be allowed if this place is not run by a monopoly of certain moderators' preferences. Like I said, it would be pretty important information for TO's to have who are considering hosting their own separate event.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can't ignore them and call them isolated incidents.

I'm not going to ignore them, but I am going to call them relatively isolated incidents.

Camping is way more common in Brawl.

Defense wins fighting games, but not enough Melee players have the patience to abuse it.

Defensive play isn't necessarily camping, it is just being super safe.

Brawl is a CAMPIER game than Melee because approaching doesn't yield as much of a reward and isn't as safe, it is simple as that. This isn't even an argument, you can say that camping is possible in Melee, or that it is a legitimate option in Melee, but saying that Melee is as campy as Brawl is just plain wrong.

 

[Vyse]

1)Random tripping is eliminated to make the game more competitive, and fair. In no way is this change cheating for the mere fact that it accomplishes the opposite intent of cheating, and instead makes the game more fair. Also, this standard applies universally to all players (though it comes to my realization that this change could favor ground based characters over aerial ones, I think the difference is negligible/worth it).

I actually think tripping should never be removed. It's an arbitrary change, albeit an almost insignificant one (but the almost part is what kills it).

The realisation of ground vs. air is one thing. Also bear in mind characters that benefit from a trip/are punished more for tripping based on things like current %s, moveset capabilities etc.

 

[Alien Vision]

Demoralise your argument and try to make it again HyperFalcon.

Do you have any argument against cheating other than "It is wrong because it is cheating. And cheating is wrong, therefore cheating is wrong"?

I won't even address the very incorrect idea that Mods are Cheating, I'll just start the deconstruction of this argument on the issue you seem to be avoiding addressing, rather than the one you are blowing as loud as a ram horn.

Just an analogy. You are not literally blowing your argument like a ram horn.

So yeah, do you have an argument that proves Cheating should not be done? "Because it's wrong" is a moral issue and entirely subjective.

For example, I could argue that eating my roommate is perfectly fine by demoralising the issue.

Humans need Nutrients to survive.
I am Human.
I need Nutrients to survive.

One way of obtaining Nutrients is Orally.
Eating is an oral method of ingesting substances.
One way of obtaining Nutrients is by eating things that contain them.

Humans are full of the Nutrients necessary for humans to survive.
My roommate is human.
My roommate is full of the Nutrients necessary for humans to survive.

It is easier to get sources of Nutrients that are close than those that are far away.
My roommate is close.
My roommate is a readily available and easily accessed source of nutrients.

Therefore, by eating my roommate, I am
1.) Getting all the Nutrients necessary for me to survive
2.) Saving effort that could have been wasted finding a further source of Nutrients
3.) Making great use of the source of Nutrients nearest to me.

I have thus proven, by demoralising the issue, that there is nothing illogical about eating my roommate.

Now.

Demoralise your argument. Why shouldn't people cheat?

I'm suffering from somniphobia, and you 've just made my stomache very unnerving.

Not helping. Lol.

Although, it is a great way to shed light on morality though.