Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[01011010]

Yes, I have standards. Mine are that cheating is to never be allowed in tournaments. I did not speak for anyone else. As a TO, I would never allow it.

And the only interest I have in the hacks is to unlock everything, honestly. It's a pain in the butt, really. For the main focus of the game, I just would rather play things out of the box. There was nothing so horrific to me that it needed changing.(besides banning, respectively, but hey, nearly every competitive game has had a ban before, so that's nothing new regardless, but let's not go further into that.) I mean, if it's for fun, sure, but I just can't stand manipulating things for anything competitive. But you understand why I don't approve of it.

It's ironic that the problem you have with BBrawl is that it's cheating, though it's not, but you say you would use an SD card to unlock everything, which is totally cheating.

That being said, I feel that BBrawl, being its own fun game, deserves to have tournaments for people that are interested. As far as trying to revolutionize smashboards to "see the light" and play the game more widely, however, I take issue. For me, it's not about the amount of work it does/doesn't take to do it, the mechanics of the game, or anything else; the problem is with newcomers. Perhaps few will ever come to the tournament scene, but there are a great many casual people who play Brawl and enjoy it extensively that may, at some point, decide to join competitive play. This is obviously a good thing for the community. With BBrawl, however, I imagine they might say "Oh, it's not the same game that I've been playing? I have to modify stuff and get used to tweaked characters? Well, screw that, then."

Furthermore, I know many, many people would disagree with me, but I don't see Brawl as something that is broken and must be fixed. The exception is MetaKnight.

Though I've mained him since joining the tourney scene, I think this ban is a good thing for a lot of reasons. In my mind, the most compelling reason for him needing banned is the matchup issue. Every matchup being in his favor is a problem in and of itself, but, more than that, it's a lens through which the deeper issue can be seen. Much of the character interaction in this game comes down to advantages and disadvantages; I'm not going to try to prove myself, here, but, as I see it, no bad matchups for MK illustrates his brokenness by showing that he has no real disadvantages and too many advantages.

What are his disadvantages? Light weight? He isn't even particularly light, in the first place, but his incredibly fast Uair combined with proper DI almost makes him "count" as medium. Some say "having no projectile" is a disadvantage...but I feel that's grasping at straws, as it's actually simply one advantage he doesn't have.

His advantages? I'm not about to list them. Just think about them. They are many. He arguably trumps every other character in ground game in general, aerial game in general, speed (well, Fox, Cfalcon, Sonic.),recovery, ledge play, racking up damage, getting the KO, putting on pressure, avoiding pressure, and pissing the opponent off. His grab is even great. Also I listed them. Oh, well.

As a MK main, I could actually make a mistake and, due to the ridiculously low cooldown of everything MK does, punish my opponent for trying to punish my mistake. That's just wrong.

Without him, I feel planking can be left alone (as some have said before me, people will simply learn how to beat it).

The rest of the reasons for his ban, to me, are icing on the cake. I know it got a little subjective, there, but frame data doesn't quite do the trick. If there are 20 aspects of a character that are important to that character's ability to do well, MK is the best in 14 of them, almost the best in 3, and average in the remaining 2. The 1 is projectiles. Poor MetaKnight, no projectile.

 

[Battousai780]

Though I've mained him since joining the tourney scene, I think this ban is a good thing for a lot of reasons. In my mind, the most compelling reason for him needing banned is the matchup issue. Every matchup being in his favor is a problem in and of itself, but, more than that, it's a lens through which the deeper issue can be seen. Much of the character interaction in this game comes down to advantages and disadvantages; I'm not going to try to prove myself, here, but, as I see it, no bad matchups for MK illustrates his brokenness by showing that he has no real disadvantages and too many advantages.

This type of thinking is merely theorycraft. Even if his disadvantages are "not real," they should still be counted as disadvantages. Just because fox's shine is 1 frame doesn't mean he's broken, since he has no disadvantage if I time shine correctly to block anything. Situations in the game will occur where you are either mindgamed into getting hit, you become impatient, find yourself in a quick situation that results in you getting hit, or any random occurences that result in damage to MK.

Also, while literally every match is in his favor, this argument only scratches the surface of logic. I'm tired of scrubby newbs who pick bad characters and cry about his matchups. High tiers such as Snake, Diddy, Falco, Marth, and Wario are all even enough in terms of matchups that MK cannot be considered broken vs these characters. Hell, Diddy goes even on FD; and I could argue that it's in his favor.

As a MK main, I could actually make a mistake and, due to the ridiculously low cooldown of everything MK does, punish my opponent for trying to punish my mistake. That's just wrong.

This phenomena occurs in many characters and isn't exclusive to MK. An example of such would be a Marth who whiffed a fsmash, a seemingly laggy move. Try to attack me after and I'll up-b. Plenty of times have I ****ed up with Peach and saved myself with her ridiculous jab.

Without him, I feel planking can be left alone (as some have said before me, people will simply learn how to beat it).

As others have also said before, people will learn to get better at it. Planking definitely is a serious problem and can degenerate matches into who gets the first stock. Many characters are pretty good as planking, not just MK. Marth, G&W, PIT FOR **** SAKE, Toon Link, blahblahblah. People try to blame MK as the sole reason for the LGL but this argument is total BS. Certain matchups (and I mean quite a few) vs planking literally take away all the options of the person getting planked except the option to acquire more percent damage and lose in 8 minutes.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Toon Link can't plank >_>

And here we have another person claiming that planking is broken without any evidence to support him.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Battousai wario does not go "evenish" with MK. If you think this you should not consider yourself worthy of posting on a forum in a balance discussion

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^This

It's like... -2

 

[Battousai780]

Toon Link can't plank >_>

And here we have another person claiming that planking is broken without any evidence to support him.

Evidence? I have evidence from personal tourney experience, which if you don't, don't come at me bro. I have evidence in the form of previous videos already being posted in this thread which demonstrate a character's ability to plank. I have evidence in the testimonies and videos of anyone who has gone to a tourney with no LGL (ex multiple HOBOs).

You can even break down in theorycraft the supposed outcome of planking. With Marth, I can drop down fair, drop down side-b away from stage jump and bair, and an almost frame perfect regrab. Now, if you are too close to the ledge I can jump and space nair in such a way that you must shield and can't grab the ledge. If you're farther away, I can safely do fair and bair without worrying about you grabbing the ledge.

With Pit, i can literally just up-air all day and very few characters have a move that can beat it.

Battousai wario does not go "evenish" with MK. If you think this you should not consider yourself worthy of posting on a forum in a balance discussion

A 60:40 matchup in MK's favor. I can hardly call any matchup that's 60:40 as "broken." I willingly play and win matchups with such numbers as others do. The point is that there is definitely a gap, but it isn't such that it can't be overcome. You did, however, completely miss the general point I was trying to make. Snake vs MK is 45:55 in MK's favor. How is this a broken matchup? What about the matchup vs Diddy Kong? How broken is that matchup? Even if all of these are in MK's favor, they are too close to consider MK broken.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Alright, I'll do a scenario with my main against your Marth. Keep in mind that the Ice Climbers are considered bad at stopping planking.

I am standing just out of range of your fair shooting de-synced ice blocks, obviously you'll have to let go of the ledge to avoid getting hit by an ice block and use up b. I continue doing this for a while until I have worked out the timing, at which point I run in and grab the ledge just as you let go (if you somehow predict or react to this and do an attack, I can shield it and the positions are reset). Once I am on the ledge, I very cleanly have the advantage and I can either try my luck at hitting you with an invincible bair or I can do safe regrab tricksies (jumping up or going back on-stage, never going below the stage obviously).

And this is with one of the WORST characters at stopping planking. The majority of other characters in the game have other options to get around planking, I can list them all if you'd like, but it'll take me a while. This post was just to give you an example.

 

[Ghostbone]

What are his disadvantages? Light weight? He isn't even particularly light, in the first place, but his incredibly fast Uair combined with proper DI almost makes him "count" as medium. Some say "having no projectile" is a disadvantage...but I feel that's grasping at straws, as it's actually simply one advantage he doesn't have.

MK is tied for 3rd lightest character in the game with Pikachu iirc, so he is pretty dam light
But yea, with his reasonably quick fast falling acceleration, his momentum cancel being 10 frames faster than the next quickest character, and his multiple double jumps, he lives a lot longer than his weight might suggest.

Tornado is practically a projectile, doesn't cause any hitlag for MK when he hits with it

 

[Eddie G]

@Battousai- Learn how to quicktoss bombs downward if you think Toon Link can legitimately plank.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can't assume that Battousai has had "experience with planking" if he thinks that TL's planking is anywhere close to broken.

 

[Thino]

I have a question, if planking is that hard to deal with against some characters , why isn't it banned with just those characters?

kinda like wobbling ban

 

[Battousai780]

Herp derp let's take every I said out of context. Learn to read. I never said that Toon Link's planking was broken or unbeatable. In fact, he can't stay on the ledge forever especially due to the fact that you can only tether grab so many times. As King Beef stated, quick throwing bombs down is a good method to stop planking. Just because you can stop a character from planking or a character can't plank on the ledge the entire match (some characters must eventually land on stage) doesn't mean that your options aren't far superior when on the ledge. Toon Link can be removed from the ledge, but he, as many other characters, have some great options when planking.


As for the whole IC scenario, there are two things:

Having planked and having been gimped in the past, the whole setting Marth into a rythm of up-b leading to an edgehog definitely can work, but I know this is one of your options and will avoid this scenario. Another factor is that in that particular matchup I wouldn't even pick Marth (which is irrelevant but slightly related) and I wouldn't plank. Obviously if I can plank very well vs a certain character, I will do it. If that character happens to have options that discourage planking, I won't. This applies to every match played period.

I have a question, if planking is that hard to deal with against some characters , why isn't it banned with just those characters?

kinda like wobbling ban

The option to ban certain characters from planking is highly arbitrary and too surgical to implement. Usually everyone seems to agree that changes too surgical are bad. At what ammount of ledge grabs is a character planking? We have a LGL to discourage characters from planking the whole match. In addition, to ban planking from certain characters is like banning Snake's U-tilt because it has giant hitboxes and kills. You're just randomly picking tools of characters you don't like and want to eliminate. Also, since I practically quit competitive Melee, I could be wrong, but wobbling isn't usually banned. It seems that wobbling is only banned in the case of stalling matches. Therefore you can't go over a certain percent or else be DQ for stalling.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Which characters would you plank against with Marth?

 

[Eddie G]

Well sure, many characters have some nice options on the ledge. But only one character can put you in a straight up disadvantage from an inherently disadvantageous position if you try to go after him. That right there breaks a consistency that is universally associated with the rest of the cast, even the likes of Pit and ROB (depending on what character is edgeguarding them).

 

[Battousai780]

Which characters would you plank against with Marth?

I'm going to be a jerk and pick the most extreme example, Ganondorf. Seriously, what options could that guy possibly have to get Marth in a disadvantage from planking?

 

[Eddie G]

I'm going to be a jerk and pick the most extreme example, Ganondorf. Seriously, what options could that guy possibly have to get Marth in a disadvantage from planking?

Why would anyone logically be playing Ganondorf in a tournament match to begin with? That's on them if they decide to choose a character that has very little answers in so many positions. Pick a more realistic example.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm going to be a jerk and pick the most extreme example, Ganondorf. Seriously, what options could that guy possibly have to get Marth in a disadvantage from planking?

Wizkick cancel > aerial?
Side-b drop off and grab the ledge before Marth up-b's?
(not sure if those work, but they might)
Just grabbing the ledge in general.
And there's always the threat of dair.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ganondorf's huge aerial range just works against planking in general.

If he gets off-stage against Marth, chances are he can DJ Uair/Bair and recover. I wouldn't call this an extreme example at all, really.

 

[Battousai780]

Wizkick cancel > aerial?
Side-b drop off and grab the ledge before Marth up-b's?
(not sure if those work, but they might)
Just grabbing the ledge in general.
And there's always the threat of dair.

Are you joking? I seriously outrage Ganon in every one of those scenarios and I can make it very hard, almost impossible for Ganon to edgehog me.

You guys act like planking is only significant if done for the whole match. I have 35-50 ledgegrabs at my disposal depending on the tourney rules. At some point in the match, usually when I'm forced to the ledge, feel unsafe on the stage, whatever; I am going to plank for a little bit before coming back on stage. I get free damage while being patient enough to either see a pattern in the enemies' options or find a way to sneak back.

Vs Ganon trying to get me off the ledge, he will incur damage doing so. Even if he succeeds in edgeguarding me I can see this and up-b before I fall too low in order to land on stage. Of course, however, this is punishable. I'll glady trade the percent from planking with that of being punished for my up-b. I can guarantee I will do more damage than you will to me.


anways bed time

 

[Ghostbone]

Are you joking? I seriously outrage Ganon in every one of those scenarios and I can make it very hard, almost impossible for Ganon to edgehog me.

You guys act like planking is only significant if done for the whole match. I have 35-50 ledgegrabs at my disposal depending on the tourney rules. At some point in the match, usually when I'm forced to the ledge, feel unsafe on the stage, whatever; I am going to plank for a little bit before coming back on stage. I get free damage while being patient enough to either see a pattern in the enemies' options or find a way to sneak back.

Vs Ganon trying to get me off the ledge, he will incur damage doing so. Even if he succeeds in edgeguarding me I can see this and up-b before I fall too low in order to land on stage. Of course, however, this is punishable. I'll glady trade the percent from planking with that of being punished for my up-b. I can guarantee I will do more damage than you will to me.


anways bed time

Ganon's hardly that much worse off when Marth's planking compared to when Marth's on-stage.

And with a LGL you should never get damage on the opponent while you're planking with Marth, they can just wait on-stage and punish all your options to get up.

 

[Battousai780]

Ganon's hardly that much worse off when Marth's planking compared to when Marth's on-stage.

Yeah but on stage there are quite a few more options for Ganon and more room for me to mess up. By limiting your options to ones that I can beat the majority of the time (I would say almost every time cause there is no Ganon getting me off the ledge), I turn the game into one that makes the match much harder than if I stayed on stage.

Also, instead of creating scenarios in which Ganon beats Marth's planking by choosing the scenario in such a way that YOU make it possible for Ganon to offset a planking Marth regardless of real life scenarios (since we disagree and not much can be done to influence eachother) tell me what Ganon can do vs Pit?

More extreme example is more extreme.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Powershield the arrows at close range for starters, we are assuming high level play, right?

Run in, shield, SDI the uair off-stage and bair/uair Pit.

That isn't even extreme, it is super easy to do and if the Pit commits to the uair, he can't avoid Ganon's follow-up, if he doesn't commit to the uair, positions are either reset or the Ganon can try and steal the ledge.

 

[Thino]

The option to ban certain characters from planking is highly arbitrary and too surgical to implement. Usually everyone seems to agree that changes too surgical are bad. At what ammount of ledge grabs is a character planking? We have a LGL to discourage characters from planking the whole match. In addition, to ban planking from certain characters is like banning Snake's U-tilt because it has giant hitboxes and kills. You're just randomly picking tools of characters you don't like and want to eliminate. Also, since I practically quit competitive Melee, I could be wrong, but wobbling isn't usually banned. It seems that wobbling is only banned in the case of stalling matches. Therefore you can't go over a certain percent or else be DQ for stalling.

well at least you guys have this LGL, how well is it enforced at tournaments and is it punished by a DQ?

because from the various opinions about it I heard in this thread, this way to play is at the limit between something that is generally frowned up by player because of the stalling it causes and something that makes some character have a good advantge over some others.

so at the end of the day I think it's just one of various tools , that in the hands of Metaknight, make some people want to deal with him even less (I don't really know the other reasons for now , I've only heard about nado priority)

 

[Battousai780]

Powershield the arrows at close range for starters, we are assuming high level play, right?

Run in, shield, SDI the uair off-stage and bair/uair Pit.

Why would I ever shoot an arrow if you're at close range? Why can't i just drop down and up-b snap back to the ledge rather than uair'ing? I think you're forgetting the inclusion of mind games when planking, which are very good mindgames due to the fact that you are almost always completely safe. I can vary the heights at which I uair, I have a mirror shield, I can shoot arrows, I can up-b to the other side. I have all these options and your option is to run of the ledge and bair/uair me. Do you see how players on the stage can easily be predicted and punished?

Also, last point of the night, if planking isn't so bad, not broken, and can be overcome, why is there a ledge grab limit for every character instead of one just for MK? People cite MK's planking as the broken reason why there is a LGL (which imo there should be, though its rather fun without one). If MK's planking alone was the reason for the LGL, we could just create a LGL for him specifically. Instead, we have a LGL for everyone and for good reason.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yeah but on stage there are quite a few more options for Ganon and more room for me to mess up. By limiting your options to ones that I can beat the majority of the time (I would say almost every time cause there is no Ganon getting me off the ledge), I turn the game into one that makes the match much harder than if I stayed on stage.

Making a 9:1 match-up harder isn't really making it that much harder.
I'd say in any game Ganon could win with a LGL, he could also win without a LGL.
Marth's options are heavily limited on the edge as well, you have...drop of fair and up-b.

Also, last point of the night, if planking isn't so bad, not broken, and can be overcome, why is there a ledge grab limit for every character instead of one just for MK? People cite MK's planking as the broken reason why there is a LGL (which imo there should be, though its rather fun without one). If MK's planking alone was the reason for the LGL, we could just create a LGL for him specifically. Instead, we have a LGL for everyone and for good reason.

Please use a better argument than this.

We need a LGL because planking is broken! How do we know planking is broken you ask? Because we have a LGL of course!

 

[Eddie G]

Go to bed, Battousai.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why would I ever shoot an arrow if you're at close range?

Fair enough.

Why can't i just drop down and up-b snap back to the ledge rather than uair'ing? I think you're forgetting the inclusion of mind games when planking, which are very good mindgames due to the fact that you are almost always completely safe.

Then positions are either
a) Reset
or
b) The Ganon manages to out-mindgame you and snap the ledge first/hit you

I can vary the heights at which I uair, I have a mirror shield, I can shoot arrows, I can up-b to the other side. I have all these options and your option is to run of the ledge and bair/uair me. Do you see how players on the stage can easily be predicted and punished?

Varied uair heights do not change anything. Mirror shield causes the same position I said above. Arrows, as you said yourself, don't work at close range.
Flying to the other side of the stage isn't that fast and can definitely be punished with a ledge-cancelled Wizkick.

Also, last point of the night, if planking isn't so bad, not broken, and can be overcome, why is there a ledge grab limit for every character instead of one just for MK? People cite MK's planking as the broken reason why there is a LGL (which imo there should be, though its rather fun without one). If MK's planking alone was the reason for the LGL, we could just create a LGL for him specifically. Instead, we have a LGL for everyone and for good reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

 

[Battousai780]

Making a 9:1 match-up harder isn't really making it that much harder.
I'd say in any game Ganon could win with a LGL, he could also win without a LGL.
Marth's options are heavily limited on the edge as well, you have...drop of fair and up-b.


Please use a better argument than this.

We need a LGL because planking is broken! How do we know planking is broken you ask? Because we have a LGL of course!

I'm going to summarize my stance and in doing so explain why I think you're wrong. This game isn't about always picking the best option. Sometimes, a seemingly unsafe/not the best option IS the best option. This scenario occurs quite frequently and usually distinquishes bad players from good ones. In a game where one must combine using the best option and not being predictable at the game time, much more should be considered than just x beats y. The character who's planking gains access to many GREAT options while leaving his opponent to choose from bad ones. A great portion of this game deals with limiting the options of the opponent in order to hit them. I'm not saying that bad options can't beat GREAT ones if prediction is involved, but most encounters will end up with the planker coming out ahead in terms of percent. The whole LGL being enforced because planking is broken and that we know planking is broken because we have a LGL is some serious circular logic and not even true in terms of the progression of the game. We didn't originally have a LGL until we DETERMINED that planking is broken.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

"Alright guys, I'm DEFINITELY going to sleep this time"

Also, when did we determine that planking was broken? I don't remember that ever happening.

 

[Battousai780]

"Alright guys, I'm DEFINITELY going to sleep this time"

"Alright guys, I have no logical arguments left with which to counter your position so I must poke fun at the fact that Battousai is still awake and debating after announcing he's going to sleep."

I blame a combination of vyvanse and the fact that debating is fun. Seriously though, it's so obvious that planking is broken, since we discovered so and felt the need to create a limiting factor to reduce it's effectiveness.

Im done, but I just want to point out how you said varying heights of uair don't matter. I have many options (varying heights) with which to uair you. You can't possibly be able to predict me every time when I have so many options. I can space my uair even if it hits your shield (on reaction) and be far enough from the stage that you can't touch me. I also don't think you know how's Pit's planking works. I shoot arrows to make you come to me. I want you to come to the ledge where I'm planking. This is the essence of planking. One of the best options to defeat a planker is to let them have fun on the ledge while you do nothing (which is what usually happens since the LGL is in place.) Eventually they get bored/run out of ledge grabs and must hop on the stage.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm going to summarize my stance and in doing so explain why I think you're wrong. This game isn't about always picking the best option. Sometimes, a seemingly unsafe/not the best option IS the best option. This scenario occurs quite frequently and usually distinquishes bad players from good ones. In a game where one must combine using the best option and not being predictable at the game time, much more should be considered than just x beats y. The character who's planking gains access to many GREAT options while leaving his opponent to choose from bad ones. A great portion of this game deals with limiting the options of the opponent in order to hit them. I'm not saying that bad options can't beat GREAT ones if prediction is involved, but most encounters will end up with the planker coming out ahead in terms of percent. The whole LGL being enforced because planking is broken and that we know planking is broken because we have a LGL is some serious circular logic and not even true in terms of the progression of the game. We didn't originally have a LGL until we DETERMINED that planking is broken.

See, now you're not even backing up your statements, just kinda saying, "this is the way it is".
And why is the planker coming out on top in many match-ups necessarily a bad thing?

The approacher in Brawl is always facing a situation where their options are more limited than the opponent's, that's the nature of the game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

"Alright guys, I have no logical arguments left with which to counter your position so I must poke fun at the fact that Battousai is still awake and debating after announcing he's going to sleep."

Well you didn't respond to my last post so there wasn't really any arguments I could make.

I blame a combination of vyvanse and the fact that debating is fun. Seriously though, it's so obvious that planking is broken, since we discovered so and felt the need to create a limiting factor to reduce it's effectiveness.

i.e. planking is broken because we limited planking because planking is broken

This is the circular logic that Ghostbone was trying to point out.

Im done

again

but I just want to point out how you said varying heights of uair don't matter. I have many options (varying heights) with which to uair you. You can't possibly be able to predict me every time when I have so many options. I can space my uair even if it hits your shield (on reaction) and be far enough from the stage that you can't touch me.

You don't need to predict anything. Shield SDI off-stage to an aerial will stop Pit's planking EVERY single time. It doesn't matter how it hits your shield, lol. If you go far away from the stage, Ganon gets to grab the ledge, planking has stopped. Otherwise, you get hit by an aerial in your lag and Ganon grabs the ledge afterwards, planking has stopped.

I also don't think you know how's Pit's planking works. I shoot arrows to make you come to me. I want you to come to the ledge where I'm planking. This is the essence of planking.

You were saying that shooting arrows is one of your "many" options as Pit against Ganondorf.

Even though it isn't, because the Ganondorf should be up close to you about to punish your planking.

That is why I said that the arrows are irrelevant, because we were talking about a close-range planking situation.

One of the best options to defeat a planker is to let them have fun on the ledge while you do nothing (which is what usually happens since the LGL is in place.) Eventually they get bored/run out of ledge grabs and must hop on the stage.

We were debating LGL-less planking >_> With this and the arrow thing, it makes me wonder if you are even in the same conversation I am.

 

[Battousai780]

"Alright guys, I'm DEFINITELY going to sleep this time"

"Alright guys, I have no logical arguments left with which to counter your position so I must poke fun at the fact that Battousai is still awake and debating after announcing he's going to sleep."

I blame a combination of vyvanse and the fact that debating is fun. Seriously though, it's so obvious that planking is broken, since we discovered so and felt the need to create a limiting factor to reduce it's effectiveness.

Im done, but I just want to point out how you said varying heights of uair don't matter. I have many options (varying heights) with which to uair you. You can't possibly be able to predict me every time when I have so many options. I can space my uair even if it hits your shield (on reaction) and be far enough from the stage that you can't touch me. I also don't think you know how's Pit's planking works. I shoot arrows to make you come to me. I want you to come to the ledge where I'm planking. This is the essence of planking. One of the best options to defeat a planker is to let them have fun on the ledge while you do nothing (which is what usually happens since the LGL is in place.) Eventually they get bored/run out of ledge grabs and must hop on the stage.

Lastly, if you want to use the Argumentum Ad Populum I must call you a hypocrite for being a sheep in the MK ban decision. You might want to say that this majority opinion to ban MK is the right opinion, in which case I'll laugh at you because of subjectivity at its finest. I guess every majority opinion can be invalidated with that argument as long as it suits your specific needs. (this argument doesnt apply to planking)

See, now you're not even backing up your statements, and why is the planker coming out on top in many match-ups necessarily a bad thing?

The approacher in Brawl is always facing a situation where their options are more limited than the opponent's, that's the nature of the game.

How am I not backing up my statements? I've done so time and time again. It's is a necessarily bad thing in terms of competitive play. Else, we wouldn't have this discussion since I could just say that why is MK being the best character and having great matchups a bad thing. People don't like bad things when they're too bad and change those that are ammendable after careful consideration.

The approacher in Brawl is always facing a situation where their options are more limited than the opponent's, that's the nature of the game.

And with this statement you enforce my view and leave me in a state of confusion as to what you're trying to argue then. Planking abuses the "nature of the game" in such a way as to degenerate competitive play.

 

[Black Mantis]

Defensive play isn't necessarily camping, it is just being super safe.

that's what's happening in brawl (except with mk lol)

Melee is no different. There are much more worse examples than the vids I showed you.

 

[Battousai780]

i.e. planking is broken because we limited planking because planking is broken

This is the circular logic that Ghostbone was trying to point out.

Caw, it's posts like these that make me curious about the critical thinking ability of the smash community.

Yes, I understand his circular logic.

Because planking is broken we have a LGL
Because there is a LGL planking is broken

^ to even utter such an argument shows a misunderstanding of basic logic for two reasons. Circular reasoning is inhenerently FALSE. Also, the second statement implies that a LGL makes planking broken. In fact, a LGL is designed to LIMIT planking and does exactly the opposite of making planking for broken. The LGL merely signifies that planking is broken, it doesn't make it broken.

I said:

We determined through experience prior to even having a LGL that planking is broken
Thus we developed a LGL

learn cause and effect

 

[Ghostbone]

Lastly, if you want to use the Argumentum Ad Populum I must call you a hypocrite for being a sheep in the MK ban decision. You might want to say that this majority opinion to ban MK is the right opinion, in which case I'll laugh at you because of subjectivity at its finest. I guess every majority opinion can be invalidated with that argument as long as it suits your specific needs. (this argument doesnt apply to planking)

MK and planking can't really be compared in this sense.

We wouldn't have as many people wanting to ban MK as we do if he wasn't as good as he was.

But it is kinda a legitimate point, in that if nobody wants to go to a tournament without a LGL, of course all tournaments should have a LGL, but I don't think people would quit over not having a LGL.

How am I not backing up my statements? I've done so time and time again. It's is a necessarily bad thing in terms of competitive play. Else, we wouldn't have this discussion since I could just say that why is MK being the best character and having great matchups a bad thing. People don't like bad things when they're too bad and change those that are ammendable after careful consideration.

You talked about how gameplay in Brawl works, and then said that means planking is broken basically, without talking about any in game situations to back up your claims. or saying why that causes planking to be broken.

And with this statement you enforce my view and leave me in a state of confusion as to what you're trying to argue then. Planking abuses the "nature of the game" in such a way as to degenerate competitive play.

What I meant is that, planking doesn't abuse the nature of the game to a greater degree than say, camping with Falco does, or camping with Diddy does.

I said:

We determined through experience prior to even having a LGL that planking is broken
Thus we developed a LGL

learn cause and effect

Prove that a LGL was put in place after we tested every character's planking plz.

 

[Battousai780]

What I meant is that, planking doesn't abuse the nature of the game to a greater degree than say, camping with Falco does, or camping with Diddy does.

Yes, planking does influence to a greater degree. If I have more options vs a camping Falco/Diddy (which you do) than someone planking the ledge, obviously planking abuses the nature to a greater degree.

Prove that a LGL was put in place after we tested every character's planking plz.

First of all, testing every character's planking ability is not required to figure out that the characters who we know can plank do so ridiculously well. The whole theme of the MK pro-ban decision is that his options are too good and cover everything. Seeing as how there are options in game that we don't know about (the game progresses, people get better) knowing every option of how to beat MK was obviously not part of the decision to ban him. The same works for planking. We know the options we know, this is all we can use to judge the rules. How am I going to make rules about something I haven't discovered yet. Also, having played from the birth of Brawl, I can assure you that if you look up past tournaments and ask anyone about the timeline of Brawl, they will tell you that the LGL wasn't put in place immediately. We obviously use it after acquiring experience of watching plankers. Do I even need to argue this obvious trivial point? Did we ban DDDs standing infinite before we knew it existed? Obviously not.

can i make this any more obvious with more insertions of the word "obvious"? herp derp herp derp derp

 

[Ghostbone]

Yes, planking does influence to a greater degree. If I have more options vs a camping Falco/Diddy (which you do) than someone planking the ledge, obviously planking abuses the nature to a greater degree.

Do you really? How good are your options in those situations? Because you certainly don't have many options that won't get interrupted by a laser, or otherwise punished/predicted.

 

[Battousai780]

Do you really? How good are your options in those situations? Because you certainly don't have many options that won't get interrupted by a laser, or otherwise punished/predicted.

Uh, I can only dodge, powershield, and space myself to where it's not safe to shoot a laser? Lasers aren't even that big of a deal. Powershielding laughs at projectiles.

 

[Thino]

What's wrong about abusing the nature of the game when playing it in a competitive way in first place?

I mean if planking legitly help you win, along with Falco/Diddy spamming, what is the degree "threshold" before deeming a tactic as "influencing the game enough to have rules against it"?