Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Grim Tuesday]

Lastly, if you want to use the Argumentum Ad Populum I must call you a hypocrite for being a sheep in the MK ban decision. You might want to say that this majority opinion to ban MK is the right opinion, in which case I'll laugh at you because of subjectivity at its finest. I guess every majority opinion can be invalidated with that argument as long as it suits your specific needs. (this argument doesnt apply to planking)

Um... what?

I never said that Meta Knight deserves to be banned because the majority want him banned. That is argumentum ad populum.

I merely support a Meta Knight ban and a Meta Knight ban happens to be popular, not fallacious at all.

We can use polls and popular opinion to gauge what people want, but it is not an indication of what is the correct decision. The MK poll was not used to determine whether Meta Knight is actually broken, it was used to determine if the community wanted Meta Knight to be banned.

Understand?

Yes, I understand his circular logic.

Because planking is broken we have a LGL
Because there is a LGL planking is broken

^ to even utter such an argument shows a misunderstanding of basic logic for two reasons. Circular reasoning is inhenerently FALSE.

He wasn't using circular reasoning, you were. God, you're as bad as Jebus.

You used the fact that we have a ledge-grab limit as evidence that a ledge-grab limit is warranted, that is circular reasoning and that is what both Ghost and myself were trying to point out.

Also, the second statement implies that a LGL makes planking broken. In fact, a LGL is designed to LIMIT planking and does exactly the opposite of making planking for broken. The LGL merely signifies that planking is broken, it doesn't make it broken.

What. I didn't imply anything. Can you point out which part of my post you were specifically referring to here?

I said:

We determined through experience prior to even having a LGL that planking is broken
Thus we developed a LGL

learn cause and effect

You didn't say that, actually, you said: "if planking can be overcome, why is there a ledge grab limit?"

Circular Logic.

Anyway, what experience was this? A couple of matches? I already showed how Ice Climbers and even Ganondorf can beat planking in a few sentences.

 

[Battousai780]

What's wrong about abusing the nature of the game when playing it in a competitive way in first place?

I mean if planking legitly help you win, along with Falco/Diddy spamming, what is the degree "threshold" before deeming a tactic as "influencing the game enough to have rules against it"?

You tell me. For **** sake, they banned my character. I would have to say that perhaps banning planking is slightly influenced by Melee. In Melee there is no real planking (somewhat shiek), in comparing the two games we thought that having the whole match spent trying to detach someone from the ledge was too gay to not be restricted. Ask any Melee player why it's a better game than Brawl (im not saying it is, just stating that melee players commonly have this attitude). One of the reasons they provide is that because Melee has more options, it's a more competitive game. More options produce more ways to outsmart your opponent, which is the essence of competitive videogaming. Planking reduces the ammount of options and changes the game in such a way that it's less competitive.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You tell me. For **** sake, they banned my character. I would have to say that perhaps banning planking is slightly influenced by Melee. In Melee there is no real planking (somewhat shiek), in comparing the two games we thought that having the whole match spent trying to detach someone from the ledge was too gay to not be restricted. Ask any Melee player why it's a better game than Brawl (im not saying it is, just stating that melee players commonly have this attitude). One of the reasons they provide is that because Melee has more options, it's a more competitive game. More options produce more ways to outsmart your opponent, which is the essence of competitive videogaming. Planking reduces the ammount of options and changes the game in such a way that it's less competitive.

Banning things because they don't yield the highest possible number of options would lead to many double standards.

 

[Ghostbone]

You tell me. For **** sake, they banned my character. I would have to say that perhaps banning planking is slightly influenced by Melee. In Melee there is no real planking (somewhat shiek), in comparing the two games we thought that having the whole match spent trying to detach someone from the ledge was too gay to not be restricted. Ask any Melee player why it's a better game than Brawl (im not saying it is, just stating that melee players commonly have this attitude). One of the reasons they provide is that because Melee has more options, it's a more competitive game. More options produce more ways to outsmart your opponent, which is the essence of competitive videogaming. Planking reduces the ammount of options and changes the game in such a way that it's less competitive.

There are Melee players who want a LGL too, including M2K >.>

When you plank, you still have all your other options, you're only utilising some of them, by banning planking, you're banning the option from characters such as DK, who really needs the opponent to be trying to get him off the edge, to provide a safe way to get up from it.
As well as preventing players from camping out transformations of a stage that's unfavourable for them.

 

[Battousai780]

There are Melee players who want a LGL too, including M2K >.>

When you plank, you still have all your other options, you're only utilising some of them, by banning planking, you're banning the option from characters such as DK, who really needs the opponent to be trying to get him off the edge, to provide a safe way to get up from it.
As well as preventing players from camping out transformations of a stage that's unfavourable for them.

I just said that Melee players would be more likely to be in favor of a LGL, learn to read.

When you plank, you still have all your other options, you're only utilising some of them, by banning planking, you're banning the option from characters such as DK, who really needs the opponent to be trying to get him off the edge, to provide a safe way to get up from it.
As well as preventing players from camping out transformations of a stage that's unfavourable for them.

So if I'm planking, I can spotdodge on the ground? No, spotdodging can only be done on the stage. In other words, you do not have "all your other options." In planking you trade your other options for better ones.

A LGL essentially bans planking which still leaves a large ammount of ledgegrabs to wait and be patient enough to get back on stage when you think you should. I see you still can't grasp the fact that planking limits the options of both players.

On stage I can:

shorthop, jump, double jump, do aerials, do multiple aerials, jump and airdodge, airdodge then aerial, aerial then airdodge, walk, run, shield, spotdodge, grab, pivot grab, smash attack, regular attacks etc

Game and Watch on the ledge can either get back on stage, nair, up-b.

When you plank with a character you usually tend to only use a few moves in that characters moveset, thus limiting options. You definitely have FAR more options on stage than offstage.

It's just that in planking the options you do have are incredibly safe due to ledge grab invincibility and vertical spacing. The more options that the player has on stage are restricted since he isn't fighting on stage and thus planking is banned.




<------- other posters in this thread
logic ------------>

 

[Grim Tuesday]

learn to read.

<------- posters in this thread
logic ------------>

Yes, Ad Hominem is very logical.

These two quotes are irony at it's finest. Let us continue.

So if I'm planking, I can spotdodge on the ground? No, spotdodging can only be done on the stage. In other words, you do not have "all your other options." In planking you trade your other options for better ones.

He was saying that you can just go back on-stage and have all your usual options. Planking doesn't take away your options, it just momentarily replaces them.

This is a very obvious interpretation of his post

Feel free to keep not responding to my posts by the way, it is much more sensible than trying to counter my points again, and failing.

 

[Ghostbone]

It's just that in planking the options you do have are incredibly safe due to ledge grab invincibility and vertical spacing. The more options that the player has on stage are restricted since he isn't fighting on stage and thus planking is banned.

So you'd support banning anything that limits one's options?
Ban every move in the game because they prevent you from initiating another move immediately.

This argument is all over the place at the moment (on both sides), and I thought you were leaving anyway?

 

[Battousai780]

Yes, Ad Hominem is very logical.

These two quotes are irony at it's finest. Let us continue.



He was saying that you can just go back on-stage and have all your usual options. Planking doesn't take away your options, it just momentarily replaces them.

This is a very obvious interpretation of his post

Feel free to keep not responding to my posts by the way, it is much more sensible than trying to counter my points again, and failing.

Seeing as how I've been the target of various Ad Hominems, I don't feel particulary guilt for using one, logical or not.

This momentarily argument makes no sense. In planking without a LGL, there should be no reason to have to get back on the stage. Otherwise, it isn't planking. Plus, at certain scenarious in game options are present and others aren't. It's pretty dumb to say that you always have all your options because you can reset the scenario to where you have them again. You can't go back in time to a bad situation to make it so you have an unavailable option that would've saved you.

Yes, the planker loses many options but the new options available to him are more safe than the previous ones. The victim of planking loses options (out of his control for as long as the planker is planking) and is stuck with mostly unsafe options. This is the fundamental theory of planking. By limiting everyone's options and as a result having options that mostly triumph over the opponent, being safe is too easy even if one is predictable. If anything by reducing the victim's options, the planker gains an even greater tool by being able to more easily predict the bad options of the victim with his superior ones. It's too broken.

I don't understand how you keep saying that I'm not responding to your posts. Even if I don't quote you directly, I am making sure that every subsequent post of mine covers every topic laid out after my last post.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well, I dunno. I'm saying that you are ignoring my posts because I told you how to beat Marth's planking with one of the worst anti-plankers in the game and how to beat Pit's planking with the worst character in the game, and you just shrugged them off due in part to your poor reading comprehension.

You know what? I'm done with this (actually "done", mind you, you've wasted enough of my time, don't expect another response). There is no point arguing with someone who has poor comprehension and interpretation skills, ignores any argument that he can't counter and pretends it doesn't exist, straw mans like no tomorrow and retcons almost all of his arguments when they are disproven.

Ta-ta.

 

[Battousai780]

Well, I dunno. I'm saying that you are ignoring my posts because I told you how to beat Marth's planking with one of the worst anti-plankers in the game and how to beat Pit's planking with the worst character in the game, and you just shrugged them off due in part to your poor reading comprehension.

You know what? I'm done with this (actually "done", mind you, you've wasted enough of my time, don't expect another response). There is no point arguing with someone who has poor comprehension and interpretation skills, ignores any argument that he can't counter and pretends it doesn't exist, straw mans like no tomorrow and retcons almost all of his arguments when they are disproven.

Ta-ta.

I clearly stated long ago that I was done arguing scenarios in which you made it guaranteed that Ganon beat the planker regardless of whether or not this can actually happen in an effort to focus on the fundamental reasons of why planking is banned/broken. In other words, too much theorycraft.

Also, every portion of your post accurately describes how YOU participated in this discussion; and I find it highly surprising and mildly hilarious that you would ironically accuse me of the inconsistencies you constantly laid out through the course of this debate.

It is this exact lack of understanding that led a select group of TO's to gain mass appeal to noobs and acquire the power to ban MK.

 

[Ghostbone]

It is this lack of understanding that led a select group of TO's to gain mass appeal to noobs and acquire the power to ban MK.

Yea you're just wrong here.

 

[Battousai780]

Yea you're just wrong here.

cool, you're bad at brawl

 

[Ghostbone]

cool, you're bad at brawl

I would MM you but you're over the ocean.
Whatevs.

 

[Thino]

You tell me. For **** sake, they banned my character. I would have to say that perhaps banning planking is slightly influenced by Melee. In Melee there is no real planking (somewhat shiek), in comparing the two games we thought that having the whole match spent trying to detach someone from the ledge was too gay to not be restricted. Ask any Melee player why it's a better game than Brawl (im not saying it is, just stating that melee players commonly have this attitude). One of the reasons they provide is that because Melee has more options, it's a more competitive game. More options produce more ways to outsmart your opponent, which is the essence of competitive videogaming. Planking reduces the ammount of options and changes the game in such a way that it's less competitive.

I find your approach of competitiveness right but restrictive, my vision of a videogame considered as competitive aka playing to win, is using ALL the options available to win , no matter what their number are. I find the competitiveness to become artificial, every attempt to force me or less options, and I personally dislike it, but that is just my opinion

That said, for decisions like these, LGL or MK ban, it would be cool for history purposes to see the internal cooking it took to decide rules like these , for example the first post(s) from Alphazealot in this thread providing more detail info as to WHY Metaknight got banned, as in actual argument and conclusions, instead of leaving all that inside URC/BBR and making it look like a popularity contest on who wants to ban MK and who doesn't within a group of TOs

Spoiler

which deep down inside we all know is because people are salty about MK winning too much since the only argument I've seen so far is that he is broken because he wins all the nationals, and he makes players worry about only one MU and slows down the metagame from evolving

same goes with LGL, assuming the ban is taking by your way of seeing what makes the game less competitive, is there any thread here in the Brawl section that provides CharacterxCharacter chart mentioning which character has the most options against which character's planking , therefore , LGL?

if yes, link me to it, because doing it in any other way isn't accurate and does lead to double standards as Grim said, since some people will see options where other people don't and this is exactly what you guys have been arguing about for the past few pages

What else can be done except theorycraft? experiences from players about planking?

 

[Joshu]

YOU JERKS
Overswarm was right this WHOLE TIME but then you exiled him. IS THAT WHAT HAPPENS NOW WHEN SOMEONE IS BEING JUST TOO DARN CORRECT!? Shameful.
BRING BACK OVERSWARM FOR BBR PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW
IMPEACH AZ AND ALL THE REST

 

[DMG]

Joshu I love you

I nominate YOU for president

 

[KishPrime]

Too bad the BBR passed a resolution limiting Joshu to one post per three months, a post-granting-limit, before they kicked him out, or we might see some real fireworks.

 

[DMG]

Those *******s!

 

[Overswarm]

YOU JERKS
Overswarm was right this WHOLE TIME but then you exiled him. IS THAT WHAT HAPPENS NOW WHEN SOMEONE IS BEING JUST TOO DARN CORRECT!? Shameful.
BRING BACK OVERSWARM FOR BBR PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW
IMPEACH AZ AND ALL THE REST

That picture is from 2005 at MLG Chicago. I am wearing a halo 2 hoodie and a yellow T-shirt and was having my photo taken with a fan. It was cool. Ken and Neo played a great set there that ended up resulting in Onett being banned, even though it went to the last stock between Ken's Fox and Neo's Roy.

 

[DMG]

and not a single **** was given that day

 

[KishPrime]

That was a great tournament for fun times and crazy matches.

I lost a Puff ditto to Zulu. I was terribad at Puff dittos.

 

[Overswarm]

But seriously, I am always right.


Joshu I miss you. I also miss the kishes. I miss the entire ship of fools.

 

[KishPrime]

Reunion time. Not kidding, been meaning to put something on the calendar for awhile.

 

[Overswarm]

I've been thinking about hosting a no holds barred tournament where all items, stages, and characters are legal. The irony of me holding a tournament with MK allowed immediately after his banning would be... delicious.

 

[Tedium]

it wouldve been better to just ban rainbow cruise and brinstar, imo. could've already been said. haven't read the posts in this thread.

 

[Battousai780]

I find your approach of competitiveness right but restrictive, my vision of a videogame considered as competitive aka playing to win, is using ALL the options available to win , no matter what their number are. I find the competitiveness to become artificial, every attempt to force me or less options, and I personally dislike it, but that is just my opinion

That said, for decisions like these, LGL or MK ban, it would be cool for history purposes to see the internal cooking it took to decide rules like these , for example the first post(s) from Alphazealot in this thread providing more detail info as to WHY Metaknight got banned, as in actual argument and conclusions, instead of leaving all that inside URC/BBR and making it look like a popularity contest on who wants to ban MK and who doesn't within a group of TOs

Spoiler

which deep down inside we all know is because people are salty about MK winning too much since the only argument I've seen so far is that he is broken because he wins all the nationals, and he makes players worry about only one MU and slows down the metagame from evolving

same goes with LGL, assuming the ban is taking by your way of seeing what makes the game less competitive, is there any thread here in the Brawl section that provides CharacterxCharacter chart mentioning which character has the most options against which character's planking , therefore , LGL?

if yes, link me to it, because doing it in any other way isn't accurate and does lead to double standards as Grim said, since some people will see options where other people don't and this is exactly what you guys have been arguing about for the past few pages

What else can be done except theorycraft? experiences from players about planking?

The metagame revolves around the changing use of particular options. By analyzing this through actual gameplay or by watching videos, one can break down the possible options the opponent has at his disposal. Nothing(very little) should be new when you fight a person. If you consider yourself a good player, you should have a good understanding and knowledge of what the person is going to do and how they will counter you based on your options and their knowledge that you also know what options they have.

Of course, at any time a person can have a novel idea and create new options, but this is typically rare and often these ideas start with much higher level players that then get passed on to the scrubs.

Competitive fighters are just matches of the mind between the two players.
Brawl is alot about safely restricting options because fewer options for my opponent makes it easier to predict what they will do.

I know he can pick 1-4, and I can predict which one he can do; or I know he can pick 1-2, and I can more easily predict what he can do. Planking abuses the limiting of options in a way that no one option can. By going into a match I know what my planking options are and his options to remove me from the ledge based on experience and knowledge of the current metagame.

I would say the planker has more options (by this I mean more SAFE options). Still, even the planker limits himself through planking.

It just so happens that in limiting both himself and the opponent into having fewer options, and doing so while on the ledge, puts him in a much favorable position.

While you might have near the same ammount of options, a single move option from the planker can typically cover a wide array of the other characters options. (one argument used in order to have MK banned since his options cover everything) It's rock paper scissors where I pick rock and rock beats both paper and scissors. When competitive fighters are supposed to be a game of the mind, planking essentially turns the game into the above mentioned rock paper scissors. Hope you play a character that can get someone off the ledge. Hell even Metaknight could not remove another Metaknight from the ledge.
Planking essentially removes and limits most of the thinking person has to do in order to win.

 

[Overswarm]

it wouldve been better to just ban rainbow cruise and brinstar, imo. could've already been said. haven't read the posts in this thread.

We found MK's win % on those stages were actually lower than on stages like Delfino and Halberd. MK didn't break those stages.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MLG data is hardly reliable.

 

[Overswarm]

MLG data is hardly reliable.

As opposed to anecdotal evidence?

Why's that?

Are you trying to imply that someone simply saying that MK beats people on stage X is at the same level or better than a year's worth of data consisting of the top players, separated by stage?

The numbers don't show RC or Brinstar as being any more polarizing than any other counterpick, or most starters even. You want to talk about polarizing, look at ICs on FD.

 

[Battousai780]

MLG data is hardly reliable.

lolwhutubad

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MLG data is not reliable because there are too many variables not accounted for.

I'm not suggesting or implying that there is a better replacement in anecdotal evidence or anything like that.

For example:
Did you stop to consider that the reason so many MKs lost on Brinstar was because of noobs picking the stage + MK as a counter-pick and hoping for a free win against top players?

You could also consider that Norfair was legal at this tournament, so a lot of the players who picked Nofair and won there probably would've picked Brinstar if Norfair wasn't legal and won there as well.

There are lots of examples like this, I know people have brought them up in the past.

 

[popsofctown]

Overswarm still plays Brawl?

 

[C.J.]

About MLG data on Brinstar/RC:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13368474&postcount=1166

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Thankyou very much.

 

[Overswarm]

MLG data is not reliable because there are too many variables not accounted for.

I'm not suggesting or implying that there is a better replacement in anecdotal evidence or anything like that.

For example:
Did you stop to consider that the reason so many MKs lost on Brinstar was because of noobs picking the stage + MK as a counter-pick and hoping for a free win against top players?

You could also consider that Norfair was legal at this tournament, so a lot of the players who picked Nofair and won there probably would've picked Brinstar if Norfair wasn't legal and won there as well.

There are lots of examples like this, I know people have brought them up in the past.

I physically sorted through the data by hand; these weren't bad kids switching to MK and losing against top players.

Seriously, your argument is "there were enough players switching to MK on these stages and losing against top players to make it look like he doesn't do that good". For one, good, they're losing. Hit against you #1. Second, it's a tournament and MLG is seeded based off of past events. You might have a few wild card matches like that, but as the tournament goes on this happens much less. Third, you're implying that noobs picked MK and lost against top players, but that the opposite didn't happen; that is, that top players CPed MK on these stages to inflate wins. It goes both ways.

You should just go look at the data yourself. I already did. This isn't the case of a giant number of people picking MK and losing.

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm still plays Brawl?

Occasionally. I still win money when I do by beating the God Kais in tournament! :D :D :D :O

I play other games now though. Got a big boy job. and I sell bead art.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I wonder if M2K will be attending Apex with all his salt.

Bro has salt mines for miles.

 

[Sliq]

Off-Topic: My dad had ment John Gayce when he was a child. John Gayce worked at a KFC in Iowa and my dad's family just so happened to stop there.

Small world.

It's finger lickin' good!


I don't feel good about that one.

 

[Sliq]

I play other games now though. Got a big boy job. and I sell bead art.

I don't know how to feel about this.

Edit: I double posted on accident. What a pro.

 

[DMG]

Easy Answer: He's still a Boy Scout and he's doing that for a badge.