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Meta Knight Officially Banned!

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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Except all top decks have weaknesses (Usually gimmicky ones).

Like how Quagsire can compete in Ubers with a useful Thunder and Water immunity that wrecks Kyogre Drizzlers
Right. And many cards banned are because they don't have weaknesses either. Or atleast, the weaknesses are few and far between. Etc. But regardless, people emulate strategies at times, and like to win, so they have no problem using them. So who would want a winning strategy to be banned?

@Circle Breaker: Heh. Funny how it was decided to do the same thing and ban MK, right?

Okay, this is a bit off-topic, but I was referring to the similarities, and I do admit I mispoke that EVERYTHING was the same, I meant the idea in general.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Goblin decks were <3.
magic balances its games unlike Smash, i cant say how much i like the rotation system, though...
Well, it's up to the players to balance it for Smash Bros. Hence the point of rules and bans. Although to be fair, that's no different from really any game. They have rules, and some things are banned because they're too strong/cause problems/etc.

Also, is there any other similarities to card games to discuss?
 

popsofctown

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it's funny how in the SF community, people play magic, but with SSB it's all pokemon.

in magic, throughout the last year, a deck called caw blade owned 90% of all tournaments. it was basically unbeatable in average circumstances and its losses mostly came from weak draws or exceptionally good draws for the opponent. it was basically bulletproof and anything that did sort of well against it had GLARING weaknesses against other popular decks. so they banned a couple of its best cards and it still did very well (but not quite as monstrously) until its key cards rotated out and now it's gone.

it was basically the MK (with similar statistics regarding player usage at some tournaments and I don't know about the cash it pulled in) of magic and it got banned.
The caw blade ban was a pure business decision, WotC admitted they did it because tournament attendance was down. The evidence that an MK ban will increase our tournament attendance is scarce.

WotC banned a card that comes in 320$ playsets, so the people harmed by the ban clearly like the game a lot and as such will probably continue to play anyway. In smash, MKs are practically paid to play the game, so they don't necessarily love the game so much we can slap them in the face and expect they'll stay.
 

Thino

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Because TO's care about attendance and without Metaknight, it has already been shown that more people have interest in attending.
Bingo. Unpopularity.

This is the true reason why this ban passed and exactly what I wanted to hear.


Getting pretty tired of reading salty missdirected rants from bitter people who focus on nothing but irrelevant **** such as: the people who banned metaknight, other metagames, or abstract pinciples based on arbitrary values that dont give a **** about whether anyones gonna want to play the game or not.
Let people getting salty be salty , the ban already passed so what they say doesnt even matter anymore
 

AlphaZealot

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Not really. Some people may see the popularity part, but at least for my vote, it was a combination of so many factors all weighted against MK.
-Tons of rules for basically just MK just to keep MK alive
-Tons of stats all showing MK at hugely large margins over the next best character in (every) category
-With this actual evidence, coupled with a huge majority of people in favor of a ban, it basically makes sense for what to do.

Some people are trying to make it look like "OMG YOU BANNED HIM JUST CAUST IT WAS POPULAR", no, it was popular because there was tons of evidence and that evidence has been continually mounting for years.
 

SaveMeJebus

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Not really. Some people may see the popularity part, but at least for my vote, it was a combination of so many factors all weighted against MK.
-Tons of rules for basically just MK just to keep MK alive
-Tons of stats all showing MK at hugely large margins over the next best character in (every) category
-With this actual evidence, coupled with a huge majority of people in favor of a ban, it basically makes sense for what to do.

Some people are trying to make it look like "OMG YOU BANNED HIM JUST CAUST IT WAS POPULAR", no, it was popular because there was tons of evidence and that evidence has been continually mounting for years.
-Rules like what? IDC is considered stalling. If you are talking about the LGL, then it should have been taken out for MK banned tournaments in the current rule set.
-What happens if in the moths before the ban, we start seeing the same things happen to the next best character?
 

pooka216

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haven't really followed this whole debate but if you are willing to ban an entire character couldn't you just ban rainbow cruise and brinstar only for him. Those stages seem to be a large part of his success and would still give other characters who don't have such an overwhelming advantage on those stages the option to play them. I understand that mk is still great on starter stages, but it's not like he is unbeatable.
 

NinjaFoxX

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^planking, Scrooging, rainbow Cruise....

hm what else? air camping in general which wasn't considered stalling.

MK is just way too better than eveyone else. even with frame data its shown that hes nigh unkillable when played right.
 

stingers

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lol part of the problem is that the only people that are still posting are for the most part very uneducated about the MK ban so the same points keep being brought up over and over. might as well just not bother anymore
 

Nidtendofreak

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Page 249 250 now on standard.

All of the arguments have been said already people: it ain't changing, you're just wasting your time.
 

-LzR-

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I have read the whole damn thread. Can I receive bacon?
It's hilarious how scrubs/alts complain here when they don't really know what they are talking about =/
 

AvariceX

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If I may chime in as
a scrub
someone who stopped playing this game altogether (not because of MK) even though I still liked it when I stopped playing and quit for personal reasons and won't be coming back regardless (basically I'm trying to make it clear how much it doesn't matter to me whether he's banned or not). Recently I've even entered a few random tourneys I happened to be at (because they were also SF/MvC events) just to pick MK and press the B button a lot and see what happens.

First of all, I love playing top tier characters (despite playing Ness for so long in this game); in Melee I played Falco, Jiggs, Sheik, and Falcon, in Brawl I played Dedede, Falco, Snake, Pika, and MK (and Ness but let's forget about that)... in MvC3 Zero, Dante, Sentinel, Wesker, Doom, Phoenix, Dormammu, Akuma, in SF4 Akuma, in SSF4 Chun and Dhalsim, in AE Fei Long, in BBCS2 Makoto, in (... you get the idea).

MK stands out even amongst all of them though because there is literally no reason to not play him. He wins every matchup (by a pretty huge margin for the vast majority of them). If I play Fei in AE I still have to worry about running into Guile or Vega, Zero in MvC3 still has to worry about Trish and Magneto, Falco in Melee has to worry about Sheik and Marth...all of these things could make me second-guess my character choice, and the little mindgames begin before we've even left the character select screen. In Brawl just pick MK...the only character you have to worry about them picking is MK, and even if they do you've already selected the best counter to him.

The issue of characters who are marginalized by MK isn't very important, but it is still an issue. There are really good and fun characters in this game (ROB, Sonic, TL, Peach, probably more) who could all be viable if not for one character (who is again: the only character anyone has any reason to pick if they are trying to win).

The majority vote does matter, especially when it comes from respected TO's, and even more-so when it coincides with the feelings of the community. First of all the TO's are easily the most important people in the community. No TO's: No tournaments. When you have that kind of majority voting for something, it should be pretty clear that following through with it will end up bringing out more attendance than doing nothing (even if it takes some time). More attendance = more money for the people winning and more importantly it's more likely to lead to a longer-lasting game. The real kicker too is that most of the really good MK's should be able to adapt to this quite easily. They are already for the most part the best players and have the most experience (getting farther in a tournament gets you more experience against better players, and the MK's tend to get farther (there are obvious exceptions to this rule, I hope I don't need to point them out)) and it's really not hard at all to pick up a new character in this game.

I think the biggest benefit you're going to see though is counterpick diversity. Not just characters or stages...with MK it's just MK counterpicks everyone on every stage, so have a pocket MK. Without MK you're going to see more varied counterpick duos who are now actually safe to go to their best stages like Brinstar or RC without the threat of MK. Off the top of my head I think these duos are going to be really strong:
Dedede + Marth/Lucario
Snake + Diddy
Falco/Lucario + Olimar
Wario + IC's
Diddy + ROB (Honestly ROB dominates most of the mid-low tier cast almost as hard as MK dominates ROB, and Diddy has some weird matchups against some of those characters)

Basically, expect to see more creative duos and not just Main + pocket MK (which is really Secondary/bait + MK main).
 

MechaWave

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SaveMeJebus

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MKs are less motivated to practice for Apex compared to other mains.
Not the ones who say they are going to quit after MK is banned. Those players have nothing to lose and there is nothing stopping them now from going all out. Even then, I still think that MK is not going to take Apex
 

TheSlothStyle

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If I may chime in as
a scrub
someone who stopped playing this game altogether (not because of MK) even though I still liked it when I stopped playing and quit for personal reasons and won't be coming back regardless (basically I'm trying to make it clear how much it doesn't matter to me whether he's banned or not). Recently I've even entered a few random tourneys I happened to be at (because they were also SF/MvC events) just to pick MK and press the B button a lot and see what happens.

First of all, I love playing top tier characters (despite playing Ness for so long in this game); in Melee I played Falco, Jiggs, Sheik, and Falcon, in Brawl I played Dedede, Falco, Snake, Pika, and MK (and Ness but let's forget about that)... in MvC3 Zero, Dante, Sentinel, Wesker, Doom, Phoenix, Dormammu, Akuma, in SF4 Akuma, in SSF4 Chun and Dhalsim, in AE Fei Long, in BBCS2 Makoto, in (... you get the idea).

MK stands out even amongst all of them though because there is literally no reason to not play him. He wins every matchup (by a pretty huge margin for the vast majority of them). If I play Fei in AE I still have to worry about running into Guile or Vega, Zero in MvC3 still has to worry about Trish and Magneto, Falco in Melee has to worry about Sheik and Marth...all of these things could make me second-guess my character choice, and the little mindgames begin before we've even left the character select screen. In Brawl just pick MK...the only character you have to worry about them picking is MK, and even if they do you've already selected the best counter to him.

The issue of characters who are marginalized by MK isn't very important, but it is still an issue. There are really good and fun characters in this game (ROB, Sonic, TL, Peach, probably more) who could all be viable if not for one character (who is again: the only character anyone has any reason to pick if they are trying to win).

The majority vote does matter, especially when it comes from respected TO's, and even more-so when it coincides with the feelings of the community. First of all the TO's are easily the most important people in the community. No TO's: No tournaments. When you have that kind of majority voting for something, it should be pretty clear that following through with it will end up bringing out more attendance than doing nothing (even if it takes some time). More attendance = more money for the people winning and more importantly it's more likely to lead to a longer-lasting game. The real kicker too is that most of the really good MK's should be able to adapt to this quite easily. They are already for the most part the best players and have the most experience (getting farther in a tournament gets you more experience against better players, and the MK's tend to get farther (there are obvious exceptions to this rule, I hope I don't need to point them out)) and it's really not hard at all to pick up a new character in this game.

I think the biggest benefit you're going to see though is counterpick diversity. Not just characters or stages...with MK it's just MK counterpicks everyone on every stage, so have a pocket MK. Without MK you're going to see more varied counterpick duos who are now actually safe to go to their best stages like Brinstar or RC without the threat of MK. Off the top of my head I think these duos are going to be really strong:
Dedede + Marth/Lucario
Snake + Diddy
Falco/Lucario + Olimar
Wario + IC's
Diddy + ROB (Honestly ROB dominates most of the mid-low tier cast almost as hard as MK dominates ROB, and Diddy has some weird matchups against some of those characters)

Basically, expect to see more creative duos and not just Main + pocket MK (which is really Secondary/bait + MK main).
Agreed. I would love to see mthe more diversity in tournament matches. I think the MK mains can get over it and learn a new person. :)
 

Thino

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Not really. Some people may see the popularity part, but at least for my vote, it was a combination of so many factors all weighted against MK.
-Tons of rules for basically just MK just to keep MK alive
-Tons of stats all showing MK at hugely large margins over the next best character in (every) category
-With this actual evidence, coupled with a huge majority of people in favor of a ban, it basically makes sense for what to do.

Some people are trying to make it look like "OMG YOU BANNED HIM JUST CAUST IT WAS POPULAR", no, it was popular because there was tons of evidence and that evidence has been continually mounting for years.
In that case include all those details (various rules, various stats) in the first post of this thread, to make it clear that Metaknight did not get banned ONLY because members of URC voted it and that he won a majority of Nationals.

It's not because people make it look like it, it's because THAT's what it looks like because the reasons for the ban are not necessarily common knowledge.

I'm not arguing if the ban makes sense or not, its too late for that, the decision has been already taken.
 

MechaWave

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M2K must not like money as much as we thought if he is only going to attend low-entrant non-URC Metaknight-allowed tournaments.
Well of course.

DDD still ****s up Ike with the CG. Ike has problems that prevent him from rising. Not just his MUs, but the way he plays and his attributes.
 

Kink-Link5

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All theory-craft of course, but without Metaknight I foresee

Less Diddy use, ADHD being one of few who will stick with him
Significantly more Marth use- with his greatest competitor moved into ubers, Marth's niche is no longer outclassed.
A bit more DeDeDe use, but not much change on the tier list if any, Falco and IC's still beat him, HARD.
A rise in a select few mid tiers who have niche cp's against some high tiers but were otherwise put in their place by Metaknight
Low tiers will stay about the same. They aren't where they are because of Metaknight.
 

SaveMeJebus

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All theory-craft of course, but without Metaknight I foresee

Less Diddy use, ADHD being one of few who will stick with him
Significantly more Marth use- with his greatest competitor moved into ubers, Marth's niche is no longer outclassed.
A bit more DeDeDe use, but not much change on the tier list if any, Falco and IC's still beat him, HARD.
A rise in a select few mid tiers who have niche cp's against some high tiers but were otherwise put in their place by Metaknight
Low tiers will stay about the same. They aren't where they are because of Metaknight.
More players would be using Diddy. The only character that can give him problems is Snake and Snake usage would drop because of DDD and Marth. Any characters that get beaten by DDD are going to drop or stay where they are
 
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