Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[TheSlothStyle]

Wow Smash community, takes almost four years to implement such a game-altering change in the competitive scene. Either do it early or don't do it at all.

This community is now even further doomed. GJ guys.

Your statement is incorrect. :/

 

[DMG]

There is a mistake that I will now correct. Someone stated that the Will vs ADHD match was in a time when we didn't know how to counter planking and that the same strategy wouldn't work now. I was at that tourney and watched that match in real time. WHOBO 3 was last Easter, not a long time ago, when you consider that every HOBO since the birth of the game HAD NO LGL LIMIT. In addition, planking still happens in many matches even when the LGL limit is in place for some period of the fight. Even if there was always a LGL limit, people would still learn to plank better and to counter planking.

myth debunked

This is untrue. The Hobo series has had a varied LGL applied for awhile. It started out with nothing, ended up applying one that was higher than most regions (Whobo 1 also had a "TO lenient" LGL that wasn't specifically stated but was somewhere around 100 and he also considered air time) , then took it back off, then put it back on but only for MK specific, then changed it after Whobo 3.

As far as advancing the planking Metagame, I can say with full certainty that having a LGL slowed down the progress of planking and anti planking tactics. We learned a LOT about planking while it was completely legal. A LOT. Which stages favored it the most, what characters were good at it, different patterns and options, etc.

 

[TheSlothStyle]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k
but this guy is a different story

:D ROFL! And people say that Brawl is ****.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Eh, KJ is just a gay-*** stage :/

 

[Battousai780]

This is untrue. The Hobo series has had a varied LGL applied for awhile. It started out with nothing, ended up applying one that was higher than most regions (Whobo 1 also had a "TO lenient" LGL that wasn't specifically stated but was somewhere around 100 and he also considered air time) , then took it back off, then put it back on but only for MK specific, then changed it after Whobo 3.

As far as advancing the planking Metagame, I can say with full certainty that having a LGL slowed down the progress of planking and anti planking tactics. We learned a LOT about planking while it was completely legal. A LOT. Which stages favored it the most, what characters were good at it, different patterns and options, etc.

Yeah, you're right about the whole inconsistency of the LGL. The point that I was trying to make, which you even proved by saying so yourself, is that people learned much about planking to have a good knowledge of what works and doesn't. Earlier, people were trying to say that players didn't have that experience.

 

[DMG]

To a certain degree, yes and no.

The planking metagame for the stronger planking characters (most obvious 2 are G^W and MK) became fairly developed. It didn't take a genius to discover that MK planking on Norfair was incredibly strong, or that ledges being clustered together favored planking overall by a significant margin.

However, the planking metagame for weaker characters has usually been "written off" as nothing to worry about, even if the specific mechanics and frame data and what not had not been extensively looked at. Characters like Mario, Samus, DK, Bowser, etc.

Most of those characters planking doesn't matter on. But, depending on MU and stage and/or certain factors, their planking could present a problem. DK on YI for example. That kind of stuff was overlooked with the general assumption that there couldn't be a problem from characters like that. That stuff is relatively unexplored when compared to MK G^W Pit Marth etc


Does Olimar have a counter to DK planking on YI? The realistic answer is no. Does he have a more realistic chance on a different stage? Depending on the stage, ranges from hell yes to not really. Is this "bad" enough to warrant a LGL on DK? Debatable.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Your whole argument rests on what is right and what is wrong. Modding, or a scene of players adopting one, is neither. There is nothing to prove here.

And in the tournament scene, cheating is wrong. This is why they're not accepting your invitation. You're only proven that your idea won't work because of how badly flawed it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_video_games Perhaps you should read this first. Modifications to the game has always been cheating.

If a company who made the game puts out a patch, this is the sole exception for one reason: They are the owners of the game and can make any change they wish because they created it. They therefore cannot cheat by how it works.

We picked a perfectly acceptable route. Also, by your logic, no items, stages, or techniques should be banned. Despite those techniques being created by the players, not the actual game. Unfortunately, that's not the case. If things prove to be a problem, banning is an acceptable practice. Don't act like it's not because you believe a method of cheating is the better option. Once again, it's not.

Are you telling us cheating is a perfectly acceptable act in a Tournament? Because if you are, you're telling us we should not follow rules.

@Shadic: If you payed attention earlier, I acknowledged that modifying a system wasn't illegal. Thankfully, I cannot find an ignore button, which would apply to quite a lot of people on this board.

@Mikhas: Read number 6 very carefully.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

All these people wondering why MK is getting banned....obviously the illuminati are behind it

 

[DMG]

Modifying the game with hacks or cheats isn't a big deal unless you're trying to pass the game off as your own for a profit or using it to represent Nintendo in some fashion.

Nintendo frankly probably doesn't care if the tournament scene modifies the game to include music hacks, textures, etc. As long as we're not labeling the tournament as Nintendo approved/sponsored/etc, and not trying to sell this modified game.

 

[Ripple]

A ruleset with no lgl will not deter people from coming to a tournament. Infinites legal/banned do not even do this.

Chances are, people wouldn't even notice the abscence in the ruleset.

 

[DMG]

Til someone gets planked.

No LGL is asking for trouble. At least with MK in the game ofc.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

A ruleset with no lgl will not deter people from coming to a tournament. Infinites legal/banned do not even do this.

Chances are, people wouldn't even notice the abscence in the ruleset.

More characters are affected by ledge stalling than they are by infinites

 

[El Duderino]

HyperFalcon, So when are you going to stop addressing cheat codes in the Game Genie +100 lives sense instead of what Mods are. Modding, like programming, comes down lines of code. Not all code, including unofficial patches, have to do with cheating.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

*claps* It's been so long.....*claps* The ******* is finally gone. Let's get hype! I might get back into this game since MK is gone. I knew it was going to happen, but I just wish it didn't take forever for us to pull the trigger. I mean during my long break from brawl. I have played a ton of fighters and have ran into Mk's distance cousins. They are Sagat( SF4 vanilla), Nu/V-13( Blazeblue), Bob/Bryan( T6), and lastly KL( MK. They fix him now, but before the other patches he was a pain).

What made all of them different from Mk is that there was a way to beat them. It was hard, but there was a way to beat them. Taking out MK is like climbing a building with 1,000 floors.

P.S.

All jokes asides the characters from other fighting games I mention either beats up most of the cast, but goes even with a few or they have one bad match up( Kitana vs. KL).

 

[Ripple]

More characters are affected by ledge stalling than they are by infinites

So what's your point? Every character but like 2 can't Handle planking safely

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Does Olimar have a counter to DK planking on YI? The realistic answer is no.

NO. IT. ISN'T.

Olimar can beat DK's planking without putting himself in danger.

More characters are affected by ledge stalling than they are by infinites

NO ONE IS AFFECTED BY LEDGE STALLING.

Gah, I wish I lived in America so I could challenge people to plank me successfully >_>

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

So what's your point? Every character but like 2 can't Handle planking safely

Just when I say I got no one to play here. A fellow native of Illinois shows up.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

HyperFalcon, So when are you going to stop addressing cheat codes in the Game Genie +100 lives sense instead of what Mods are. Modding, like programming, comes down lines of code. Not all code, including unofficial patches, has to do with cheating.

You just don't get it, do you? What you're telling us to do is code the game so we have a better chance of winning towards a character. Which is the key problem with your argument. You are telling us to cheat to win. Isn't that exactly what cheat codes are used for?

Cheat Codes are no different from Hacks. They work the same way, and do the exact same thing. People uses cheats to make the game harder, easier, or balanced. Don't act like they're any different under a glorified poor reasoning like your own. "We can improve the game." Yeah, that's what we're doing. Just without actually using cheat codes. Which is tons more legitimate.

The fact that the art of using hacks is actually questionable really hurts your reasoning. You're also the one who used "questionable". You also admitted it was cheating. So I ask again, why do you think we should cheat to have a chance of beating one character?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So what's your point? Every character but like 2 can't Handle planking safely

The only characters that can handle Planking without getting gimped are characters with multiple jumps and even they risk taking damage

 

[Ripple]

NO. IT. ISN'T.

Olimar can beat DK's planking without putting himself in danger.



NO ONE IS AFFECTED BY LEDGE STALLING.

Gah, I wish I lived in America so I could challenge people to plank me successfully >_>

Olimar may be able to "beat" dk planking but he will never be able to kill dk if dk planks without olimar putting himself in great danger.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes he can, lol. He can pressure with correctly timed Fsmashes, the DK will be put under pressure to not screw up his timing and if he does screw up (very likely) the Olimar can safely edge-hog or grab.

 

[DMG]

NO. IT. ISN'T.

Olimar can beat DK's planking without putting himself in danger.



NO ONE IS AFFECTED BY LEDGE STALLING.

Gah, I wish I lived in America so I could challenge people to plank me successfully >_>

1. Olimar cannot beat it on YI. I know that for a fact because the stage also grants him the on stage upb invincible trick that he can use as a reliable mixup to what Olimar does.


2. There are plenty of characters affected by ledge stalling. There are characters that are so bad, they can go through anti planking methods and still be unable to punish the person. Not even on a Ganondorf kind of level either.

 

[Battousai780]

To a certain degree, yes and no.

The planking metagame for the stronger planking characters (most obvious 2 are G^W and MK) became fairly developed. It didn't take a genius to discover that MK planking on Norfair was incredibly strong, or that ledges being clustered together favored planking overall by a significant margin.

However, the planking metagame for weaker characters has usually been "written off" as nothing to worry about, even if the specific mechanics and frame data and what not had not been extensively looked at. Characters like Mario, Samus, DK, Bowser, etc.

Most of those characters planking doesn't matter on. But, depending on MU and stage and/or certain factors, their planking could present a problem. DK on YI for example. That kind of stuff was overlooked with the general assumption that there couldn't be a problem from characters like that. That stuff is relatively unexplored when compared to MK G^W Pit Marth etc


Does Olimar have a counter to DK planking on YI? The realistic answer is no. Does he have a more realistic chance on a different stage? Depending on the stage, ranges from hell yes to not really. Is this "bad" enough to warrant a LGL on DK? Debatable.

I think most of the characters that we believe have bad planking really do have bad planking which results in those characters not planking. Samus seems to have decent planking which I gathered from watching Xyro. (too random lol) Before that match even started, players knew and discussed how DK was going to plank Diddy. What I'm trying to say is that it's usually very obvious which characters are/can plank in match, and once you figure this out, you determine the options of each character and how to counter. I really would hope that most people know by now these options against the characters that frequently plank.

 

[El Duderino]

You just don't get it, do you? What you're telling us to do is code the game so we have a better chance of winning towards a character. Which is the key problem with your argument. You are telling us to cheat to win. Isn't that exactly what cheat codes are used for?

What you are calling "cheat codes" sounds a whole lot like a better balanced game with more viable content on the competitive level. Just saying...

 

[DMG]

There are plenty of people unaware about planking specifics in general. You'd be surprised how many people misquote the edge grab lag frame data and use it to show how the planking character is vulnerable or how many people think Pit planking is just as gay as MK.

With that said, there honestly aren't that many people who truly understand DK vs Olimar planking for example, or could/have an appropriate counter for it by now. All the people listing Fsmash aren't looking very far if they truly believe 100% that stops DK from planking. Or misquote the 6 frame vulnerability phrase because they don't understand when that actually kicks in and what positioning/animations either character would be in while this is going on.

 

[Ripple]

Yes he can, lol. He can pressure with correctly timed Fsmashes, the DK will be put under pressure to not screw up his timing and if he does screw up (very likely) the Olimar can safely edge-hog or grab.

In order for F-smash to hit dk on the ledge olimar must be very far back. And only the sourspot hits. Never the sweet spot. So it actually will not kill him.

And if they grab the ledge from dk he will simply go onto the stage. He won't be edgehogged and die.



Then olimar has to go through the lag ofledge snapping and getting up off the stage. Then not to mention he's not the fastest character
frame wise.

Hell dk could just stay right at the ledge once he lands on it and force olimar to do a get up attack which won't kill either.

Then dk will just go back to the other ledge.

Rinse and repeat

 

[Battousai780]

There are plenty of people unaware about planking specifics in general. You'd be surprised how many people misquote the edge grab lag frame data and use it to show how the planking character is vulnerable or how many people think Pit planking is just as gay as MK.

I'm not even worried about frame data (though if it showed a certain planking option as unbeatable, obviously this is an exception). In regular matches you can test from experience what works and what doesn't. Practice is pretty good for getting better/learning aspects of the game. I can sit there with friend x, who helps me test which options work/are good.

 

[Vinylic.]

What you are calling "cheat codes" sounds a whole lot like a better balanced game with more viable content on the competitive level. Just saying...

That doesn't make things clear.

Why would you define it as a more balanced game?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What you are calling "cheat codes" sounds a whole lot like a better balanced game with more viable content on the competitive level. Just saying...

And once again you ignore the rest of it under a poor reasoning. Funny thing is, by taking away one option, we get more. By banning MK, more than one stage is able to be used. Likewise, more than one character is viable for tournament turnouts. That means there could be a top 6 atleast winning. Not one character. That's already variety right there.

Without using any codes, we've given more options to the player. Now more than one character is viable. But we aren't using a questionable practice to do so. Which means you've only proven that you're just butthurt and refuse to accept that one character was not created fairly, and a decision was made to take out the unfair element. It's that simple.

Also, your advertising has failed to appeal any of the people who you're appealing to, the URC. So who are you trying to convince? Yourself? That your sense of justice is right? Well, it hasn't worked, and it's clear by now it won't.

 

[DMG]

But that kind of testing is not guaranteed to find a solution (or a problem). Technically, the same applies to tournament play, but it's much more likely for tournament play with unrestricted ledge access to find planking stuff than it is in friendlies/LGL environments if only because tournaments have stronger incentives to find planking related things. Finding the answer to someone planking you when hundreds or thousands of dollars are possibly on the line is a strong motivator compared to "Well he can kinda plank me but a LGL puts a cap on it, I'm not that worried about it".


Either way, what's true is that the overall general knowledge Brawl players understand about planking is fairly low. At the same time, it's not reasonable for people to have "really covered" stuff like Olimar vs DK or characters not as developed in that area as the top 3-5. Sure, maybe the generals about how DK's planking works and the same for other characters should be more known, but not in depth frame mechanics, hitbox analysis, surefire counters and complete mixup analysis, etc. That kind of stuff is NOT something you would or should expect even fairly strong players to definitely know.

 

[El Duderino]

Why would you define it as a more balanced game?

Because there is more left in the game to balance that has been addressed on-top of everything else.

 

[Vinylic.]

I see.

So, what does that have to do with the metagame?

 

[El Duderino]

I see.

So, what does that have to do with the metagame?

Everything, there is more to discover when you don't have to cut away.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

I got a question. Why is there a limit to how many times we can grab the ledge? I'm sorry, I haven't played this game in a while. This is new to me.

 

[Shadic]

That doesn't make things clear.

Why would you define it as a more balanced game?

Because it improved mediocre/awful characters. As far as balance for most of the roster goes, there's not much you can do other than improve the balance.

While balance on a whole is fairly objective, saying that Balanced Brawl is worse-balanced that Brawl is just wrong.


Under HyperFalcon's extremely vague idea of cheating, I'm pretty sure that Counterstrike is a cheat.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm gonna record a match of me beating a planking DK on YI:B with Olimar.

 

[El Duderino]

Under HyperFalcon's extremely vague idea of cheating, I'm pretty sure that Counterstrike is a cheat.

Yeah, that's exactly why I really have no choice but to just ignore him now. That is just beyond crazy. Anyone else that wants to continue the conversation with me though, go ahead.

 

[DMG]

As long as you have DK fully explore the multitude of options he has, like invincible Upb, early Upb onto stage, delayed upb hugging the stage, delayed upb further out, ledge jumping/get up attack, aerial to Upb, etc. If you post a video of a DK simply using Up with no change at all and beating that with Fsmash here and there, needless to say I'm not gonna be impressed.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've yet to see anyone post a video of Doney Kong using all of those options either, lol, so it wouldn't be that bad if I didn't include them, but I will.

 

[Black Mantis]

:D ROFL! And people say that Brawl is ****.

Camping is just as broken in melee as in Brawl.
Just sayin