Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[infiniteV115]

I can't believe we're still presenting the ban as a compilation of reasons. As if that's logical or something.

It's rule modification. It's only rule modification, and if that was not present, MK should still be legal. It makes us look so immature and unsure if we're still staying things like "His recovery is perfect, and that's one of the many reasons."

This communityyyyyysuuuughhhhhhhghhhghghghg

Pull your pants up
Your bias is showing

 

[JPOBS]

Why are people still harping on this "majority of brawlers want him banned" as if thats some sort of proof of anything?

Its the MK players vs the non MK players. The non MK have absolutely nothing to lose by betting "yes" to a pro ban. In fact, they have literally EVERYTHING to gain.

Stop saying "70% of people wanted this ban" as if that means something. Majority opinion is the WORST reason to dosomething. MK will never have the majority opinion to stay unbanned. Stick to your other arguments, atleast they aren't ********.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I can't believe we're still presenting the ban as a compilation of reasons. As if that's logical or something.

It's rule modification. It's only rule modification, and if that was not present, MK should still be legal. It makes us look so immature and unsure if we're still staying things like "His recovery is perfect, and that's one of the many reasons."

This communityyyyyysuuuughhhhhhhghhhghghghg

This community ? What a joke. I'll let you in on a secret all FG communities are immature. Except for maybe VF.

 

[deepseadiva]

Pull your pants up
Your bias is showing

...against poor reasoning?

I mean it's like that time Chibo presented a video of MK doing a Hyrule Jump. Proban is right in the end, but the popular understanding of the reasoning for the decision is a joke. ****ing "flawless" recovery.

 

[Krystedez]

@70v30, It's not a ******** argument, but it's not the only one either, so I agree that people should use other terms to discuss why Meta Knight was banned.

Also, that isn't to say that the majority rule wasn't ineffectual at all. Let's say, if Meta Knight anti-ban was more prominent, and made it lean 60-40 instead of 75-25? That surely would have said to the URC that there isn't a big problem with him in the community. They'd have to show even stronger evidence that Meta Knight is bannable. In this case, strong evidence IS prominent, but not as important to tournament operators as community-driven desires.

TOs want more people to come to their tournaments, and they want those people to enjoy them.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

change, it'll make you insane.

 

[infiniteV115]

...against poor reasoning?

I mean it's like that time Chibo presented a video of MK doing a Hyrule Jump. Proban is right in the end, but the popular understanding of the reasoning for the decision is a joke. ****ing "flawless" recovery.

I don't know where you came to this conclusion, but I assure you that very few people, pro- or anti-ban, think his recovery is literally perfect.

It doesn't make sense to pick one bad argument made by one person from the pro-ban side and say that "the popular understanding of the reasoning for the decision is a joke." I actually don't think I've heard many arguments from the pro-ban side other than that MK wins all his MUs, breaks the CP system, wins ~%40 of the money circulated through tournaments, destroys doubles, requires surgical rules (which fail), and the prevalence and performance of MK in general.

If you want to attack the pro-ban side's reasoning, be my guest, just bring up some better examples. Maybe show how a bunch of people agree on one horrible reason or something.

Edit: You know what'd be interesting? An MK-ONLY tournament!
Someone should go do that

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Rule modification is a very strong reason; likely the strongest reason, yes, but you can deny that MK's successes in and out of game, as well as public opinion doesn't play some kind of role in helping to prove his brokenness, y'know?

Some people won't be satisfied with just rule modification as the explanation. Different people require different explanations, imho...

Also I thought my sentence fragment formatting was cool.

The LGL is enforced on every character and there is no reason why any character's LGL should be over 35 with the current timer. Before the unity rule set was announced, Socal had a LGL of 35 for every character and it was never a problem

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Again, that wasn't the argument at all, it was the smash community has a tough skin is and is too dedicated to sweat the small stuff, pack their bags and quit every time they do not 100% approve. If that was the case, Brawl's scene would have been dead a long time ago.

Brawl's scene is still more than live enough. We know that. Also, by that logic, just about everything in this game could be called "smash stuff". Unfortunately, things have to get banned. Items, Stages, Character. Let's not act like they are immune to this.

Lets hear it then, I want to know what about the changes in Balanced Brawl do not benefit the game on a competitive level. If you are going to make that argument, support it. Tripping is just one small part that can always be turned back on if people agree it is worth keeping around, just like everything else.

You're missing the point here. That wouldn't be playing Brawl, it'd be playing some fanmade version of it. The tournaments use(d) BRAWL, not "Fan Version number whatever". Do you understand why they don't promote hacks? Because they're simply illegal. Hacking is always illegal. I'd like to note Cheat Devices aren't, but this isn't a cheat device, it's a hack. Also, you said earlier that hacks were "questionable". I'll get to this a bit later.

Turmoil is going to happen either way, that much is a given. But like Shadic pointed out:

Good for Shadic. Not everybody likes those ideas. Don't act like we agree with hacks by any means. Some people like playing their games legitimately without cheat codes.

Now a challenge strictly for you. You're proven Balanced Brawl would indeed benefit the game. I never said it wouldn't. I'd like you to explain to me what makes hacks different from cheat codes via a Cheat Device. But with a very specific catch: You cannot use "because it's a cheat device" as part of your reasoning. If you can provide information and proves hacks are not glorified cheat codes, you can actually say using hacks aren't cheating. This is about the only thing that might convince TO's that your hacks are worth using in the Competitive Tournament Scene. We don't care if it has benefits, as we already disproved that it causes turmoil too.(by that, people will be asking for more hacks, meaning that there will always be a question if it's really balanced or not)

 

[Alien Vision]

Well, Ted Bundy thought it fun to cut people up into tiny chunks. Maybe you're just a sociopath?

Off-Topic: My dad had ment John Gayce when he was a child. John Gayce worked at a KFC in Iowa and my dad's family just so happened to stop there.

Small world.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Halberd is arguably even for MK vs Snake. Lower ceiling benefits Snake, but MK also gets to shark him for a good period of time.

Not quite. If you watch the recent SK92 vs. Tearbear match on Pokemon Stadium you can see TB's strat of planking until the stage transforms.

You can do a similar thing against Snake on Halberd, plank/air camp until the ship comes back where you can shark him again.

Tearbear: "Base!"

SK92: "Man, that's cheating. You can't just start out next to base!"

I lost.

I'd really hope this is the case but I am not completely sure. All that I know is that if everyone switches to Diddy, I will quit the game. Even winning wouldn't be fun if I had to fight Diddy every match.

Diddy gets countered by Snake and Wario and has lots of even MUs (a la Marth), so that won't happen.

The LGL is enforced on every character and there is no reason why any character's LGL should be over 35 with the current timer. Before the unity rule set was announced, Socal had a LGL of 35 for every character and it was never a problem

I've explained why you are wrong, I'm not going to do it again.

 

[Shadic]

Do you understand why they don't promote hacks? Because they're simply illegal. Hacking is always illegal. I'd like to note Cheat Devices aren't, but this isn't a cheat device, it's a hack. Also, you said earlier that hacks were "questionable". I'll get to this a bit later.

It's amazing, you've flung countless accusations out and never bother acknowledging when your claims are false.
Europe.
United States.

Console Mods are legal. So is the "hacking" that goes into it. It's considered backwards engineering and Fair Use. If it weren't the case, Smashboards wouldn't have a subforum dedicated to it for each game.

 

[~TLK~]

im a toon link main and i don't like the ban. I think it weakens the tourney scene. MK was exciting to watch

 

[Shadic]

im a toon link main and i don't like the ban. I think it weakens the tourney scene. MK was exciting to watch

You have a strange definition of exciting.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

It's amazing, you've flung countless accusations out and never bother acknowledging when your claims are false.
Europe.
United States.

Console Mods are legal. So is the "hacking" that goes into it. It's considered backwards engineering and Fair Use. If it weren't the case, Smashboards wouldn't have a subforum dedicated to it for each game.

no trip lookin kinda nice right now huh?

 

[Chuee]

Diddy gets countered by Snake and Wario and has lots of even MUs (a la Marth), so that won't happen.

Counter is a bit much considering both of those are close to even or even. Also Diddy beats Marth.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I know, it is only a soft counter.

And yeah... Diddy does beat Marth... What was that in response to? o_O

 

[infiniteV115]

Grim, I think it was in response to when you said
"Diddy gets countered by Snake and Wario and has lots of even MUs (a la Marth), so that won't happen."

Nevertheless, the point stands; Diddy has some losing MUs and plenty of even ones. Even with MK gone, he will never be "broken" unless MAYBE every Diddy main learns the infinite and pulls it off consistently, as well as going super saiyan in every other aspect. But that'll probably never happen. Even our ICs don't pull off the infinite consistently.

 

[Cassio]

I can't believe we're still presenting the ban as a compilation of reasons. As if that's logical or something.

It's rule modification. It's only rule modification, and if that was not present, MK should still be legal. It makes us look so immature and unsure if we're still staying things like "His recovery is perfect, and that's one of the many reasons."

This communityyyyyysuuuughhhhhhhghhhghghghg

I wish this were true. But the real reason he was banned was because he made the game less fun. There was never a real discussion on rule modification because the former dominated all conversation and arguments.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Grim, I don't remember you explaining anything when I brought this up http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13438670&postcount=158

 

[B.A.M.]

I wish this were true. But the real reason he was banned was because he made the game less fun.

We livin casual out here son. Learning stages and characters is hard.
YES JEBUS TELL THEM ALL. Wheres your lackey Player-1?

 

[Mit]

Anyone know the general consensus on this ban amongst top players and TO's? I'd like to know if this ban will ACTUALLY be meaningful next year or if everyone is just going to start ignoring Unity and the BBR and all of that.

 

[deepseadiva]

I wish this were true. But the real reason he was banned was because he made the game less fun.

Tragically and hilariously true.

I'm alright with that though. Brawl's essence is silly childish shenanigans. It's ruleset is a funny mirror.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Grim, I think it was in response to when you said
"Diddy gets countered by Snake and Wario and has lots of even MUs (a la Marth), so that won't happen."

Yah... Oh, I see. What I meant was that Diddy has a lot of even match-ups just like how Marth has a lot of even match-ups. I didn't mean to say that Marth vs. Diddy is even.

@Grim, I don't remember you explaining anything when I brought this up http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13438670&postcount=158

ADHD ****ed up, he didn't need to put himself in such a risky position. He had the right idea with the ledge-hogging and banana throw, but he shouldn't've let himself get below the stage like that.

And even if it was impossible for Diddy Kong to beat, that would still be no reason to have a LGL, it'd just mean that Diddy has a hard counter. You know how Ganondorf gets ***** by the Ice Climbers due to their blizzard? Do you think it is justified to have a Blizzard limit too?

 

[infiniteV115]

We livin casual out here son. Learning stages and characters is hard.
YES JEBUS TELL THEM ALL. Wheres your lackey Player-1?

Damn
If you had switched those first 2 sentences, those would have been some "ill rhymez dawg"

 

[Cassio]

Tragically and hilariously true.

I'm alright with that though. Brawl's essence is silly childish shenanigans. It's ruleset is a funny mirror.

I think I agree with this sentiment. The only reason I can accept playing this game still is by admitting I play a casual fighter. This mightve always been the case, its just more blatantly true now. But I can still have fuuuuuuunnnnn.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yah... Oh, I see. What I meant was that Diddy has a lot of even match-ups just like how Marth has a lot of even match-ups. I didn't mean to say that Marth vs. Diddy is even.



ADHD ****ed up, he didn't need to put himself in such a risky position. He had the right idea with the ledge-hogging and banana throw, but he shouldn't've let himself get below the stage like that.

And even if it was impossible for Diddy Kong to beat, that would still be no reason to have a LGL, it'd just mean that Diddy has a hard counter. You know how Ganondorf gets ***** by the Ice Climbers due to their blizzard? Do you think it is justified to have a Blizzard limit too?

These are top players. They both know what they are doing with their character better than you do. If you watch the second match, you would know that DK does not counter Diddy without a LGL. It all had to do with who took off the stock first. Without a ledge grab limit, the game revolves around taking the first stock and planking the opponent for extra damage, a lucky gimp or a time out

 

[NinjaFoxX]

not to mention, theres a difference between a character having a specific tactic to shutdown another character, and a character having a tactic to shut down EVERYONE.

 

[Pachinkosam]

meta knight sucks just saying :/

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13376599&postcount=102
To answer this

1. We can not ban planking

2. Without a ledge grab limit, chances are a lot of matches would end up like Will vs. ADHD and Rich Brown where the game revolves around whoever takes the first stock. It may be stoppable in theory, but it is a lot harder to stop in reality as we have all seen.

3. If we did do this. As time went on, players would get better at combating the charcters that have beatable planking but the plankers would also get better at planking. Everything would still revolve around the player that takes the first stock.

There is a reason why these characters choose to stay on the platform. It is a lot safer to stay on the ledge than it is to jump back on stage. Without a LGL, there is no reason for the player with the stock lead to ever jump back on stage

 

[Spelt]

I like how you bring up an example of planking where it was the first widely known instance of that character using it to take notable matches, and where nobody really knew how to deal with it then.

It's like saying snake is better than meta knight because nobody can beat his ftilt and then linking to a video from 2008 for proof.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I like how you bring up an example of planking where it was the first widely known instance of that character using it to take notable matches, and where nobody really knew how to deal with it then.

It's like saying snake is better than meta knight because nobody can beat his ftilt and then linking to a video from 2008 for proof.

While that is true, it is also true that this was the first time that Will ever planked his opponent like that. It's not like he went into this tournament with all these hours of DK planking practice.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

While that is true, it is also true that this was the first time that Will ever planked his opponent like that. It's not like he went into this tournament with all these hours of DK planking practice.

To be fair, you don't know that Jebus.

He could've been practicing a butt-ton prior to that tournament.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Grim Tuesday]

These are top players. They both know what they are doing with their character better than you do.

Pretty ironic coming from you, but whatever.

ADHD made a mistake, anyone can see that. He did not get out-played in any sense, he made the wrong decision and got punished for it.

I could link you to a video of a Snake accidentally Fsmashing and getting gimped by an MK's down throw > dtilt > dair shenanigans and it'd be equally as valid as your video "evidence".

If you watch the second match, you would know that DK does not counter Diddy without a LGL. It all had to do with who took off the stock first. Without a ledge grab limit, the game revolves around taking the first stock and planking the opponent for extra damage, a lucky gimp or a time out

Prove it.

not to mention, theres a difference between a character having a specific tactic to shutdown another character, and a character having a tactic to shut down EVERYONE.

You are biased towards characters who are good with our current ruleset, but whatever.

Would King Dedede vs. Donkey Kong be a better example for you, then?

I like how you bring up an example of planking where it was the first widely known instance of that character using it to take notable matches, and where nobody really knew how to deal with it then.

It's like saying snake is better than meta knight because nobody can beat his ftilt and then linking to a video from 2008 for proof.

thisthisthis

I promise anyone that if I played against Will and he ONLY tried to plank the entire match, I would beat him. As simple as that, any character, any stage. Planking is perfectly beatable and it isn't even hard to see why.

The person planking is under pressure not to screw up, in most cases they only have one or two options and if they mess up, they lose a stock. The person on-stage however can safely lay on the pressure for the entire match without any risk of getting KO'd.

 

[El Duderino]

You're missing the point here. That wouldn't be playing Brawl, it'd be playing some fanmade version of it. The tournaments use(d) BRAWL, not "Fan Version number whatever". Do you understand why they don't promote hacks? Because they're simply illegal. Hacking is always illegal. I'd like to note Cheat Devices aren't, but this isn't a cheat device, it's a hack. Also, you said earlier that hacks were "questionable". I'll get to this a bit later.

Stop trying to dance around backing up your claims. As Shadic pointed out, you are 100% wrong on the legality of it, and we have already discussed to death why Nintendo is not going after Mods like Balenced Brawl.

It is a fan version of the game, and you know what, that is not a bad thing. In a lot of ways it has huge benefits, so again I ask you to back up the following with regards to Balanced Brawl's fixes:

And one could completely argue that none of those "benefit" the game.

Soo.. give the critique.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Grim Tuesday, The same can be said about the player who is planking. If he is getting puinshed for planking, he must also be making mistakes

 

[BSP]

2. Without a ledge grab limit, chances are a lot of matches would end up like Will vs. ADHD and Rich Brown where the game revolves around whoever takes the first stock. It may be stoppable in theory, but it is a lot harder to stop in reality as we have all seen.

But planking isn't broken, so we shouldn't ban/limit it.

That's what I've been seeing in here. If it's not 100% broken, don't ban it. Planking falls under that, so it'd have to be legal

 

[SaveMeJebus]

But planking isn't broken, so we shouldn't ban/limit it.

That's what I've been seeing in here. If it's not 100% broken, don't ban it. Planking falls under that, so it'd have to be legal

We are not banning it. We are limiting it.


Example: We don't ban Walk off camping. We limit it by banning stages with permanent walk offs

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Stop trying to dance around backing up your claims. As Shadic pointed out, you are 100% wrong on the legality of it, and we have already discussed to death why Nintendo is not going after Mods like Balenced Brawl.

I don't care what Shadic says. Fine, it's not illegal. That doesn't make it any less different from cheating as I pointed out.

It is a fan version of the game, and you know what, that is not a bad thing. In a lot of ways it has huge benefits, so again I ask you to back up the following with regards to Balanced Brawl's fixes:

Soo.. give the critique.

I already told you that Balanced Brawl is not a bad thing. I don't need to give you one thing. I already said it wasn't a bad idea. But you have failed to prove how it's not cheating in any possible way. I reiterate my challenge. Are you going to prove that hacks aren't glorified cheat codes, or are you going to continue to promote cheating?

Competitive Tournaments do not allow Cheating because it's simply beyond wrong. Prove it's not cheating. Prove that hacks are not cheat codes. This is the crux of your argument. This is one of the key reasons that TO's do not allow hacks. I'll wait.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@Grim Tuesday, The same can be said about the player who is planking. If he is getting puinshed for planking, he must also be making mistakes

Incorrect, it is possible to punish planking without the planker making mistakes cause planking has vulnerability that is humanly possible to exploit.