Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[SaveMeJebus]

Incorrect, it is possible to punish planking without the planker making mistakes cause planking has vulnerability that is humanly possible to exploit.

But it is also possible to punish the player who is punishing the planker (which is what happened in the video)

@Smooth Criminal,http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=106439

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What could Will have done if ADHD dropped bananas on his head the entire game? ADHD made a poor decision and got punished for it, just like any other situation in the game.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What could Will have done if ADHD dropped bananas on his head the entire game? ADHD made a poor decision and got punished for it, just like any other situation in the game.

He tried that and it didn't work http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJaLEjFCuZE&t=2m44s

Whay are you going to continue trying something that doesn't work?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Did you even watch the video you just linked to? Lol

He managed to get Will off the edge and Will ended up dieing xD

 

[NinjaFoxX]

You are biased towards characters who are good with our current ruleset, but whatever.

nope, seems pretty logical to me.

character A has the tools to take out most players, he's fair.
character B has a single tool that can take out the whole cast, he's fair?.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Did you even watch the video you just linked to? Lol

He managed to get Will off the edge and Will ended up dieing xD

But only because Will made a mistake. ADHD also had to put his stock in danger in order to take away that stock and also ended up taking damage

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But only because Will made a mistake. ADHD also had to put his stock in danger in order to take away that stock and also ended up taking damage

Lets break this down.

ADHD threw a banana down, Will was forced off of the ledge.
ADHD grabbed the Ledge and made a mistake of falling off and bairing, luckily, he did not get gimped.
Will was forced to go for the stage or risk getting gimped.
Will goes for the stage and races to the other ledge.
ADHD chases and grabs the ledge, again, forcing Will to go to the stage.
ADHD makes a mistake and goes for a silly spike, luckily he does not get gimped.

Looks like planking is perfectly beatable and poses no risk as long as you don't go for anything stupid, yeh?

I'm not even going to try and convince you because I know you are too stubborn to even try and understand what I am saying, but to anyone else reading this, does this post make sense?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Lets break this down.

ADHD threw a banana down, Will was forced off of the ledge.
ADHD grabbed the Ledge and made a mistake of falling off and bairing, luckily, he did not get gimped.
Will was forced to go for the stage or risk getting gimped.
Will goes for the stage and races to the other ledge.
ADHD chases and grabs the ledge, again, forcing Will to go to the stage.
ADHD makes a mistake and goes for a silly spike, luckily he does not get gimped.

Looks like planking is perfectly beatable and poses no risk as long as you don't go for anything stupid, yeh?

If everyone had this ability to predict what they were doing wrong in the middle of the match, then we would stop themselves from doing it. But we don't. These are top level players and even they make mistakes. They are not always going to be able to get there punishes because they can't predict what there opponent is going to do 100% of the time. You may get lucky and gimp the planker before he damages you, gimps you or times you out, but you will not be able to do this 100% if the time

 

[TheSlothStyle]

Really!?!?!?!?

That's awesome as hell! Finally some justice!...
As long as this thread isn't trolling right?

 

[Deleted member]

That's awesome as hell! Finally some justice!...
As long as this thread isn't trolling right?

No, this is real.

Check the Unity Ruleset.

 

[Battousai780]

nope, seems pretty logical to me.

character A has the tools to take out most players, he's fair.
character B has a single tool that can take out the whole cast, he's fair?.

What is Metaknight's single tool to take out the whole cast? Metaknight at a competitive level is about optimizing all of your moves and spacing correctly, unlike many characters who rely on the few same spammy moves all match.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If everyone had this ability to predict what they were doing wrong in the middle of the match, then would stop themselves from doing it. But we don't. These are top level players and even they make mistakes. They are not always going to be able to get there punishes because they can't predict what there opponent is going to do 100% of the time. You may get lucky and gimp the planker before he damages you, gimps you or times you out, but you will not be able to do this 100% if the time

Look at their mistakes.

Do you believe that they came from ADHD going "Woopsy, I didn't mean to do that!" or "I have no idea what to do in this situation as I have never encountered it before and learnt how to stop it, I should see if this will work!"

Just let the metagame develop and stop banning things prematurely. The Smash community is so scrubby, I swear >_>

 

[TheSlothStyle]

Well damn!

No, this is real.

Check the Unity Ruleset.

That's too awesome! So... Now how's the tier list going to be affected?

 

[xDD-Master]

If everyone had this ability to predict what they were doing wrong in the middle of the match, then would stop themselves from doing it. But we don't. These are top level players and even they make mistakes. They are not always going to be able to get there punishes because they can't predict what there opponent is going to do 100% of the time

Agreed.

Its not as if the DK only has one option if he planks, he can screw over the other player by just doing something else, when the Anti-planker thinks the DK will plank more. And as humans do not have 0 frame reaction, this will work...

Just let the metagame develop and stop banning things prematurely. The Smash community is so scrubby, I swear >_>

Agreed as well.
So if Ledge Camping shows to be broken/over-centralizing the metagame, you would agree to ban it?
I could agree to do that, but I'm pretty sure the result will be obvious

 

[Deleted member]

That's too awesome! So... Now how's the tier list going to be affected?

Once the ban is officially in place(after Apex), I'm sure we'll have a better idea.

Without a doubt, D3 and Marth will be more prominent.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If ledge-camping was over-centralizing, I wouldn't still be playing Brawl.

My state has never had a LGL on anyone except Meta Knight and we have never had any problems with players camping the ledge.

And when you have players like Ghostbone and myself who definitely play to win in almost every situation, it is pretty obvious that either we are really bad at this simple tactic, or this tactic isn't as broken as everyone is making it out to be.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Look at their mistakes.

Do you believe that they came from ADHD going "Woopsy, I didn't mean to do that!" or "I have no idea what to do in this situation as I have never encountered it before and learnt how to stop it, I should see if this will work!"

Just let the metagame develop and stop banning things prematurely. The Smash community is so scrubby, I swear >_>

As players get better at combating planking, Plankers are only going to get better at planking. I don't know about you, but I would not waste any of my money to enter a tournament where I am going to risk getting timed out like ADHD and Rich Brown

 

[El Duderino]

But you have failed to prove how it's not cheating in any possible way. I reiterate my challenge. Are you going to prove that hacks aren't glorified cheat codes, or are you going to continue to promote cheating?

These "glorified cheats" you speak of are also responsible for some of the best game experiences to be had, and I'm not just talking Smash Brothers here. You are starting to bring out the inner Valve fan in me. Anyways, why should a community of gamers be afraid to use means to bring balance back into the game they love? It's not like this is a completely taboo idea.

Competitive Tournaments do not allow Cheating because it's simply beyond wrong. Prove it's not cheating. Prove that hacks are not cheat codes. This is the crux of your argument. This is one of the key reasons that TO's do not allow hacks. I'll wait.

Cheating is wrong, but the type of cheating you refer too is entirely different than what we are talking about here. MODs "that fix bugs are called unofficial patches....Mods can significantly outshine and/or continue the success of the original game, even when it is becoming dated."

You just either have an antiquated idea of what video game cheating is, or fail to grasp that cheating is all about creating an artificial advantage.

 

[TheSlothStyle]

Once the ban is officially in place(after Apex), I'm sure we'll have a better idea.

Without a doubt, D3 and Marth will be more prominent.

Agreed. I just wonder why this wasn't done earier? As long as the deed is done. Man! Now I'm too hype to see how the tier list changes.

 

[Battousai780]

There is a mistake that I will now correct. Someone stated that the Will vs ADHD match was in a time when we didn't know how to counter planking and that the same strategy wouldn't work now. I was at that tourney and watched that match in real time. WHOBO 3 was last Easter, not a long time ago, when you consider that every HOBO since the birth of the game HAD NO LGL LIMIT. In addition, planking still happens in many matches even when the LGL limit is in place for some period of the fight. Even if there was always a LGL limit, people would still learn to plank better and to counter planking.

myth debunked

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If ledge-camping was over-centralizing, I wouldn't still be playing Brawl.

My state has never had a LGL on anyone except Meta Knight and we have never had any problems with players camping the ledge.

And when you have players like Ghostbone and myself who definitely play to win in almost every situation, it is pretty obvious that either we are really bad at this simple tactic, or this tactic isn't as broken as everyone is making it out to be.

Just because you guys don't have a problem with this doesn't mean it's not a problem. Are you going to say you would have done better than ADHD or Rich Brown if you were in their situations?

 

[TheSlothStyle]

*sigh* I'm just... So happy. *sniff*

 

[Grim Tuesday]

As players get better at combating planking, Plankers are only going to get better at planking.

Then let that happen, then we can see if planking is actually broken.

Do supporters of banning planking even know how a metagame evolves? Let me give you a hint:

Players try out a tactic, they find a tactic that works really well. Then another player will come along and find a tactic that beats the first tactic, but loses to another tactic. This will keep happening until the game basically turns into a giant game of Rock-Paper-Scissors.

THIS IS PERFECTLY NORMAL BEHAVIOR. Do you even realize how ridiculous you people sound? Can you imagine what Street Fighter would be like if people banned Hadoken in the first few weeks of the game's release because no one could get past the spam? What about ROB's spot dodge down smash? Etc...

I have never seen scrubbier behavior from any community in the entire history of competitive video games.

I don't know about you, but I would not waste any of my money to enter a tournament where I am going to risk getting timed out like ADHD and Rich Brown

Good, we don't want to run the risk of your stupidity being contagious and infecting other Smashers.

Just because you guys don't have a problem with this doesn't mean it's not a problem. Are you going to say you would have done better than ADHD or Rich Brown if you were in their situations?

Easily. If Will planked the entire game against me and did nothing else, I would beat him with 100% certainty. Any stage, any character.

 

[xDD-Master]

So if Ledge Camping shows to be broken/over-centralizing the metagame, you would agree to ban it?
I could agree to do that, but I'm pretty sure the result will be obvious

.............

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

These "glorified cheats" you speak of are also responsible for some of the best game experiences to be had, and I'm not just talking Smash Brothers here. You are starting to bring out the inner Valve fan in me. Anyways, why should a community of gamers be afraid to use means to bring balance back into the game they love? It's not like this is a completely taboo idea.

It doesn't matter what they're responsible for. It doesn't mean it's not cheating. Stop strawmanning your argument with "oh, but it's fine because it has benefits." That doesn't make it any less fine. If you steal from a person who stole from you, does that make it fine? Because this is exactly what you're saying here. That if "I" do it, it's fine. But if they do it, it's wrong. And nobody said it's a bad idea. Except in competitive tournies that do not use cheat codes. Which makes sense, since any tournament with money that uses legitimate practices would not promote cheating.

Cheating is wrong, but the type of cheating you refer too is entirely different than what we are talking about here. MODs "that fix bugs are called unofficial patches....Mods can significantly outshine and/or continue the success of the original game, even when it is becoming dated."

You just either have an antiquated idea of what video game cheating is, or fail to grasp that cheating is all about creating an artificial advantage.

So you admit cheating is wrong, and yet you still say we should do it. It doesn't matter if it has its advantages to improving the game. And no, it's not different whatsoever. They're still codes that change the gameplay. Which is what cheat codes and hacks explicitly are.

You're failing to understand why they were called cheat CODES in the first place. There's only two types that exist, one that you can input within the original game(and really the only one nobody cares about is simply unlocking everything for the purpose of tournament play, but it doesn't effect the gameplay at all, which is what the type of codes you promote do). The other kind are codes that change around the gameplay.

Hacks are basically cheat codes. You keep denying that they're the same, but you don't provide any information why. Once again, your argument falls flat on the face. They're the exact same thing. Prove that wrong, and you might have something.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

.............

Like I said, if ledge camping was actually broken then I wouldn't even care of ot was banned or not. I would not be playing a game where such a broken tactic exists.

 

[TheSlothStyle]

.............

..................

 

[xDD-Master]

Like I said, if ledge camping was actually broken then I wouldn't even care of ot was banned or not. I would not be playing a game where such a broken tactic exists.

So... you dont play this game?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Then let that happen, then we can see if planking is actually broken.

Do supporters of banning planking even know how a metagame evolves? Let me give you a hint:

Players try out a tactic, they find a tactic that works really well. Then another player will come along and find a tactic that beats the first tactic, but loses to another tactic. This will keep happening until the game basically turns into a giant game of Rock-Paper-Scissors.

THIS IS PERFECTLY NORMAL BEHAVIOR. Do you even realize how ridiculous you people sound? Can you imagine what Street Fighter would be like if people banned Hadoken in the first few weeks of the game's release because no one could get past the spam? What about ROB's spot dodge down smash? Etc...

I have never seen scrubbier behavior from any community in the entire history of competitive video games.



Good, we don't want to run the risk of your stupidity being contagious and infecting other Smashers.



Easily. If Will planked the entire game against me and did nothing else, I would beat him with 100% certainty. Any stage, any character.

I agree with you but I also disagree. It's too risky for a TO to host a local tournament with no LGL. Players might not show up. A LGL has been around for ever and a lot of players hate change. I would like to see how the game is with no LGL, but I think it should frist be tested as a side event.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So... you dont play this game?

The day when I start consistently losing to planking will be the day I quit this game.

I agree with you but I also disagree. It's too risky for a TO to host a local tournament with no LGL. Players might not show up. A LGL has been around for ever and a lot of players hate change. I would like to see how the game is with no LGL, but I think it should fist be tested as a side event.

I would be happy with this.

 

[xDD-Master]

But you could agree that its legit to ban it, if it would show to be near to unbeatable, right?

 

[Battousai780]

I agree with you but I also disagree. It's too risky for a TO to host a local tournament with no LGL. Players might not show up. A LGL has been around for ever and a lot of players hate change. I would like to see how the game is with no LGL, but I think it should frist be tested as a side event.

1. I doubt players wouldn't show up since the same rule applies to everyone and people still expect to win anyway.
2. If no one showed up then the TO knows for next time

The TO is usually a player within a certain region that happens to host tourneys anyway. Anyone who is good should post in his respected regional thread and know the people he consistently plays at tourneys. People talk and tourneys often have their own thread, where each player can offer their input.

hard much?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

But you could agree that its legit to ban it, if it would show to be near to unbeatable, right?

Yes, I would.

 

[El Duderino]

HyperFalcon Sometimes you have to break into the game to make it better. What is wrong is when people do it with malicious intent, not when it is to provide an unofficial patch, improve the experience, or create something new all together.

You are absolutely taking the extreme here by turning this into an issue of morality. Welcome to the wonderful world of gaming in the past 20 years, I suggest you get with the times.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

1. I doubt players wouldn't show up since the same rule applies to everyone and people still expect to win anyway.
2. If no one showed up then the TO knows for next time

hard much?

2. Finding a venue and then having players not show up because of a rule is not something any smart TO is ever going to take a chance on (unless the attendance is almost guaranteed)

 

[TheSlothStyle]

But you could agree that its legit to ban it, if it would show to be near to unbeatable, right?

I would as well.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

HyperFalcon Sometimes you have to break into the game to make it better. What is wrong is when people do it with malicious intent, not when it is to provide an unofficial patch, improve the experience, or create something new all together.

You are absolutely taking the extreme here by turning this into an issue of morality. Welcome to the wonderful world of gaming in the past 20 years, I suggest you get with the times.

If you're going to Troll, you're doing it wrong. So you refuse to prove your point. And that's also bullcrap. You're using cheats under the pretentious intent of "I'm helping you!" Try again. This has nothing to do with morality. You admit it's cheating, which is always against the rules. That has never changed.

So, are you going to prove it's not cheating? Because that's the key part of your argument here. Is it cheating or not? Do you promote cheating, or don't you? And if it's not cheating, explain explicitly how Hacks are not the same as Cheat Codes, and thus not cheating. That's your goal. Prove me wrong.

 

[Mikhas]

If you're going to Troll, you're doing it wrong. So you refuse to prove your point. And that's also bullcrap. You're using cheats under the pretentious intent of "I'm helping you!" Try again. This has nothing to do with morality. You admit it's cheating, which is always against the rules. That has never changed.

So, are you going to prove it's not cheating? Because that's the key part of your argument here. Is it cheating or not? Do you promote cheating, or don't you? And if it's not cheating, explain explicitly how Hacks are not the same as Cheat Codes, and thus not cheating. That's your goal. Prove me wrong.

cheat   [cheet]
verb (used with object)
1. to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.
2. to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.
3. to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.
verb (used without object)
4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.
5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.
6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.

Under no definition of the word could playing a modified game be considered cheating, unless the participants are unaware that the they are playing a modified game.

 

[Shadic]

So, are you going to prove it's not cheating? Because that's the key part of your argument here. Is it cheating or not? Do you promote cheating, or don't you? And if it's not cheating, explain explicitly how Hacks are not the same as Cheat Codes, and thus not cheating. That's your goal. Prove me wrong.

You're being irrelevantly pedantic. Yes the easiest method to modify Brawl is done by "cheat codes." That's just what they're labeled. It doesn't have to directly correspond to their functionality and use.

I'd like an comment recognizing the fact that you were utterly wrong about the legality issue, by the way. You keep flinging crap comments and arguments at a wall hoping one will stick and then running away without acknowledgement every time you're beaten.

 

[El Duderino]

If you're going to Troll, you're doing it wrong. So you refuse to prove your point. And that's also bullcrap. You're using cheats under the pretentious intent of "I'm helping you!" Try again. This has nothing to do with morality. You admit it's cheating, which is always against the rules. That has never changed. So, are you going to prove it's not cheating? Because that's the key part of your argument here. Is it cheating or not? Do you promote cheating, or don't you? And if it's not cheating, explain explicitly how Hacks are not the same as Cheat Codes, and thus not cheating. That's your goal. Prove me wrong.

Your whole argument rests on what is right and what is wrong. Modding, or a scene of players adopting one, is neither. There is nothing to prove here.