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Meta Knight Officially Banned!

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Kink-Link5

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Stage banning is put into place so things like best of 5s don't go to the character who just had more viable cp's against his opponent.

Similarly, stage striking is in place to ensure a closest to neutral first game, except against Metaknight since he is better than every character on every starter stage obviously.
 

-LzR-

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I don't think Falco beats MK on Japes. Don't you know all the crazy things MK can abuse on that stage?
It's a lot more than Falco can do. What if MK has the lead and is camping the middle platform? What you gonna do, sideB?
 

Ghostbone

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MK doesn't lose to Diddy or IC on FD.

ICs aren't that hard to handle there, MK just needs to make sure he doesn't nado them when they have a full shield.
 

Espy Rose

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To be fair Iblis, Falco mains deserve each and every bit of it.
Their character has to be one of the lamest characters in the game besides Meta Knight. :applejack:
 

Grim Tuesday

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You might be interested in this video that shows pretty much the only way to effectively beat Perfect Planking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4
That doesn't work against Meta Knight, really.

Anyway, people are still overrating planking >_>

I have mained Ice Climbers for 2 days now, and they are considered to be one of the worst characters when it comes to combating planking... Ghostbone and I played many friendlies today and his planking just plain didn't work, I just safely layed on pressure with ice blocks and mixed up approaches with edge-hogging/dtilt/blizzard and more often than not he was forced into a bad position.
 

JPOBS

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Question: What exactly is so risky about approaching MK at the edge if he's planking?

I just watched the "anti planking" metagame minute and it seems pretty good way to deal with it, unless the MK doesn't attack and you roll/spotdodge. But even so, the brawl engine doesn't facilitate 0-deaths anyway, so you wager killing him in exchange for a slight punish? I don't see how metaknight can gimp you from the ledge either.

So what exactly is stopping people from doing this?
Inform me please.
 

DMG

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More than just that. It's risky and not guaranteed because MK has a window he can vary the Uair that makes it harder to punish.

In the metagame minute video, the only response they showed was PSing the Uair based on the assumption that MK is gonna try to Uair immediately (which is fine if you assume he's trying to do the planking that gives him the most invulnerability while he is attacking). However, he can delay the Uair or even decide not to throw it out at all if you walk up to the edge like that trying to shield/fall off and punish. Because of that, it can be risky or not worth your time to do it unless you have a very specific read.


The other thing is that under that method you have to approach him while he is in edge grab lag. Otherwise, he can space against you if you aren't close to him at the edge and be safe from a counter assault even if you PSed his aerial. If MK has been sitting on the edge for a few seconds, it's actually harder to walk up to him and try to PS/punish his Uair because he can do the move while you are further away from him. However if he's lagging from grabbing the edge and you snake your way in there, he now has to play a guessing game.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Mix ups like tornado
...which you can hit MK out of if you're coming in from above. You have plenty of time to do that (MK can't act for 26 frames, iirc; I don't remember the startup for 'nado). That's one of MK's worst options in that situation.

Can I ask a question, real quick? I wanna direct this specifically at somebody like DMG: Why is it a bad thing that there's a risk involved when it comes to utilizing the anti-planking strat?

Smooth Criminal
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Well something being risky is inherently bad when compared to something fairly safe like planking.

Using just about any effective strategy vs planking (I underline effective because there are plenty of extremely tame strategies or ideas that either don't bother addressing planking or only take care of 1 specific aspect. Like if you laser over and over as Falco, it limits MK from coming onstage but doesn't stop him from sitting there or dropping down) entails some risk. It's not simply risky because you're dealing with offstage MK, but because NO single anti planking strategy can effectively "squash" planking as we know it. There are specific answers to specific aspects of planking, but no strategy to implement all of them or no universal answer to stop it.

Looking at it from that perspective, it may change how much risk you're willing to accept to try and stop it.


Also: the 26 frame thing is not for Tornado. Characters when grabbing the edge (minus pikachu and tethers) are stuck on the edge for 26ish frames without being able to do anything. During this time, they are fully invincible. After this period is over, they still remain invincible for another 20+ frames or so, while now being able to move. This means that technically you can grab the edge, get off the edge, and start up an partially invincible tornado. Which is what Ussi was referring to.
 

Kink-Link5

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Just looked at MK frame data.

Nado has an 11 frame start up giving him an extra 9+ frames of invincibility on the attack used from the ledge.

Then he also has the option to fair you instead, or shuttle loop your shield, drop off and rising Uair into your shield instead, or even the basic ledge options. It's like saying a full screen multihit move is beatable if your power shield every hit of it while shield DI'ing toward the opponent.

Kind of.
 

Kink-Link5

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Just looked at MK frame data.

Nado has an 11 frame start up giving him an extra 9+ frames of invincibility on the attack used from the ledge.

Then he also has the option to fair you instead, or shuttle loop your shield, drop off and rising Uair into your shield instead, or even the basic ledge options. It's like saying a full screen multihit move is beatable if you power shield every hit of it while shield DI'ing toward the opponent.

Kind of.


EDIT: WHAT THE HELL WHY DID THIS REPOST I PRESSED EDIT.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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You are putting words in my mouth. I never said everyone will go along with it or certain players won't be upset. That is not any different than what is going on now. But this "not everyone can do it" barrier you keep bringing up is so specific, I doubt anyone active in the community will be effected by it, and aside from a radical few, butt-hurt enough about it to quit.

Remember, Smash players this late in the game are a dedicated bunch. We are talking about the same type of people who have no problem importing GC controllers and dropping dough on travel expenses for a video game tournament. It also is the same group of players that time and time again feel marginalized, either by Sakurai's less-than-competitive choices or by lame but necessary tournament rules, yet still come out to play and support the game. We have quite frankly put up with a lot of crap, but for the minimal fee of an SD card we can wash a lot of the obvious BS away.
You can't compare it to Gamecube Controllers as Brawl was programmed to accept them. So let's ignore how little sense that makes. And saying it won't affect the community is the the problem here. That's what you want to happen, isn't it? You admit MK is a problem, yet you're against doing something about him without hacks. Also, as pointed out earlier, not everybody likes hacks or constant patches either. So that's simply a matter of opinion if it helps the game or not. Also, the only BS that exists happens to be Meta Knight and Tripping. Removing tripping and only tripping would be the only acceptable thing as it really doesn't add anything good to the gameplay(but it DOESN'T HURT it as much as people say either.)

Sure, it's not free, but it's not like you are dropping money on something that serves no other purpose. The Wii's limited internal memory makes the SD card purchase worth it on its own. Just think of it as requiring the Gamecube memory card equivalent. It's also handy to have a portable Smash save for obvious reasons.
And you don't need it to play Brawl whatsoever. You're acting like it's necessary for BRAWL specifically. It's not. We've been over this before: The game is perfectly playable right out of the box. It's a fun endeavor, I agree, as I've used cheat devices in games to change huge gameplay, but it also has the obvious problems mentioned by Twinkle and Mic_128.

I would argue the edge rules are also out of hand, but that's just an opinion. Also I'm not following your logic here about tripping being a beneficial way to dodge things. Removing it though is definitely one thing that could excite people about using a Mod instead, but it is far from the only thing. We are talking about having a full roaster of characters, larger array of competitively viable stages, and a resulting streamlined ruleset. That is quite a bit to be happy about in addition to many more positives.

And no, I'm not going to just stop stating the obvious here because a couple TOs are against it. I'm not a sheep.
And one could completely argue that none of those "benefit" the game. Saying they're good for you isn't good for everyone. Some people like the original stages, and would rather not change what they are. Also, Tripping has been proven to not be completely bad, as it has invincibility frames. So even that doesn't need removing. You have to remember that what you call "beneficial" some people would shenanigans as is.

Yes, yours is an interesting choice, but that's it. It's not the "only good choice", since that's completely subjective. I do not think banning was the "only good choice" either, but as pointed out, it was the only choice that does not cause tons of turmoil from people asking for more and more hacks. Also, your problem really is with Nintendo and Sakurai for making the game unpatchable without using some form of modification done by a fan.(which as pointed out before, can be illegal unless the creating company approves. Which, by the way, they don't. They've made that clear before by their updates to remove hacks in general)

Lastly, I AM a TO, just not on the high level as the ones here. I've run them before. I've put rules in place(albeit, at a lower level) to ensure fair play. It worked perfectly fine. The biggest rule I ever had to do was to not allow Dittos(as in two people playing the same character on the same) on Double Tournaments. Other than that, I was very open to different choices so the community I was there for had fun.
 

DMG

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Halberd is arguably even for MK vs Snake. Lower ceiling benefits Snake, but MK also gets to shark him for a good period of time.
 

SaveMeJebus

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All planking outside of MK's is relatively easy to handle. There are two ways to get on the edge(Shield SDI opponent's attack off the stage or just be right next to the ledge when the opponent inputs a ledge drop), and from there, it's simple enough to appropriately respond to your opponent's options.

In MK's case, you're at risk of eating a billion different things that result in death if you try that shizzle, so idk.

Planking in general, despite this, is still somewhat challenging to beat, so I can understand the rationale behind keeping it, although I disagree with it.
As you have seen with DK's planking, your opponent won't always be hitting your shield

EDIT:The Snake can always move back when he is pulling out his grenade
 

SaveMeJebus

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then the MK can attack snake's feet since the grenade is in snake's hand
After this, I'm going to stop because this is just turning into theorycraft. Snake can just count MK's jumps. When MK gets close, he can pull out a grenade and get close to it. He can also roll away or jump after MK doesn't blow up the grenade
 

Ripple

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After this, I'm going to stop because this is just turning into theorycraft. Snake can just count MK's jumps. When he gets close he can pull out a grenade and get close to it.
this is not even close to theory craft.

if snake pulls a grenade, the grenade is in snake's hand and can be sharked, if he shields, the grenade is always behind snakes feet. then MK just has to not attck the obvious grenade on the floor
 

SaveMeJebus

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this is not even close to theory craft.

if snake pulls a grenade, the grenade is in snake's hand and can be sharked, if he shields, the grenade is always behind snakes feet. then MK just has to not attck the obvious grenade on the floor
Yes it is. You are assuming that an MK that is Sharking is always going to attack Snake's shield when there is always a chance that they can mess up
 

Ripple

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Yes it is. You are assuming that an MK that is Sharking is always going to attack Snake's shield when there is always a chance that they can mess up
that's like the whole point of sharking. attack their shield until they move or get hit.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
It's also impossible to airdodge a c4 while sharking
 

SaveMeJebus

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I tried looking for a video of a Sharking MK beating a Snake on Halberd, but I couldn't find one.
 
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