Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Kink-Link5]

So yeah, giant images make this page the opposite of enjoyable to look at. I can't even tell what the current arguediscussion is about.

Also Garchomp can be beaten by Ice spear Cloyster in gen 4, and Kyogre can be beaten by a handful of Pokemon as well, especially ones with the likes of Rain Dance. Nothing is unbeatable, and it isn't the reason things get banned. Pokemon get banned when they centralise the game to countering them alone and having teams that look like: {Garchomp, Garchomp Counter#1, Garchomp Counter#2, Counter Counter#1, Counter Counter#2, SINGLE POKEMON OF MODERATE DIVERSITY)}.

Metaknight prior to the ban, caused single handedly:
Anti-planking rules
Anti-Scrouging rules
Banning of a MK specific technique
A highly restricted stage list, even more restricted on the international level
A current metagame consisting largely of Metaknights and the characters that can come even somewhat close to going even with him, with Metaknight usage continuing to rise at an alarming rate
And brought up a vote to extend the time limit of matches specifically because Metaknight could counterproductively stall out a game EVEN WITH ALL THE PREVIOUS RESTRICTIONS IN PLACE

And STILL, with ALL these restrictions in place specifically for this SINGLE character, he was STILL winning a disproportionate majority of tournaments.

At least Garchomp had actual counters.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Also re tripping:

Competitive Trading Card Games.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

So, when playing a card, is there a random chance, completely free of the card's actual effects and your opponent's actions, that potentially opens up your defenses for your opponent?

No. Because that's anti-competitive. That's the game handing your nethers to the opponent for free. Whether or not he capitalizes on it is irrelevant.

Your opponent countering your actions is one thing. Your defenses being randomly opened up because of a completely reasonable use of a positioning tactic is another.

But this isn't an argument for this thread. I'm gonna drop this because it's pointless, and I'm honestly surprised I haven't been infracted for spam yet. >_>

 

[Kink-Link5]

And goddammit stop quoting that image.

 

[ElDominio]

Don't forget about being able to set it so the loser picks the next stage.

That's not Tournament mode

derp.

 

[I am number one]

i cant believe that 17 people were allowed to destroy an entire gaming community.

alpha zealot is like the dumbest person i have ever known

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So, when playing a card, is there a random chance, completely free of the card's actual effects and your opponent's actions, that potentially opens up your defenses for your opponent?

No. Because that's anti-competitive. That's the game handing your nethers to the opponent for free. Whether or not he capitalizes on it is irrelevant.

Your opponent countering your actions is one thing. Your defenses being randomly opened up because of a completely reasonable use of a positioning tactic is another.

But this isn't an argument for this thread. I'm gonna drop this because it's pointless, and I'm honestly surprised I haven't been infracted for spam yet. >_>

You weren't spamming, honestly. Tripping is very notable in the competitive scene. I agree luck is a bad factor for tournaments. Of course, we also have to keep in mind that this doesn't affect the game as much as people say it does. It's also very possible that players can also purposely wait for a person to get up from a trip before continuing on with their attack, as a form of kindness. Whether or not they wish to is up to them. Keep in mind that you don't need to do anything more than keep on the attack, nor should you be yelled at for taking advantage of tripping. That's like saying every match must be on Battlefield in general. Luck is always part of every game, respectively. Trying to take out most of it is a good idea, though.

 

[John12346]

i cant believe that 17 people were allowed to destroy an entire gaming community.

alpha zealot is like the dumbest person i have ever known

Might as well be 687 since that many people voted to ban MK and the URC did factor in the public poll to their final decision...

 

[Vyse]

So, when playing a card, is there a random chance, completely free of the card's actual effects and your opponent's actions, that potentially opens up your defenses for your opponent?

No. Because that's anti-competitive. That's the game handing your nethers to the opponent for free. Whether or not he capitalizes on it is irrelevant.

Your opponent countering your actions is one thing. Your defenses being randomly opened up because of a completely reasonable use of a positioning tactic is another.

But this isn't an argument for this thread. I'm gonna drop this because it's pointless, and I'm honestly surprised I haven't been infracted for spam yet. >_>

Drawing cards from the deck is random. Including a reasonable percentage of basic pokemon in the pokemon card game can still lead to a first turn loss if you, despite the basic pokemon count you have, start with only one then lose the coin flip, leading to a first turn ko and game loss because there's nothing to replace it.

More than that, the tide of games can change dramatically depending on what you draw.

2010 pokemon card world champion Yuta Komatsuda won with a crucial draw into an Uxie Lv.X which he needed to KO a Gardevoir. If he had not drawn into it, or a card to help him get it, he would have likely lost.

So in short, I meant the random nature of drawing cards from a deck, irregardless of what they do.

I'll still concede the original point though. And yes, let's cut the spam >.>



Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm pretty sure a salty minority is not equal to "An entire gaming community"

 

[Atlus8]

Might as well be 687 since that many people voted to ban MK and the URC did factor in the public poll to their final decision...

THAT many?! I expected at least a thousand people voted to ban!

 

[John12346]

Really... because I would expect more than a low 200 amount of people to vote against...

 

[Shadic]

That wouldn't be saving Brawl, that would be replacing it.

With an utterly superior product.

Hacking does nothing but open up a stupidly massive can of worms, creating even more problems than ever. You thought pro/anti-ban MK debates were bad? Lets open up nerf/buff debates for every character.

I'd rather have balance debates than constant rule debates, tripping, irrelevant 50% of the roster, and a removed character.

Not to mention the logistics "Oh you've got BBrawl 1.42? I thought it was for BBrawl 1.43" "No man, that one's ****" and then you've also got "something glitchy just happened that gave you an advantage. Is that a prt of normal brawl, a bug or did you intentionally change the codes to let you do that on command?"

Melee managed with four separate versions. More subtle in differences than Balanced Brawl? Yeah, but they're still there.

Not to mention that Balanced Brawl has two versions. The newest of which was released a year and a half ago.

Hacking is not an answer.

Hacking as an answer is only brought up due to Nintendo's shortcomings. And the only reason it would fail would be due the shortcomings of the community. I'm not sure which I'd rather blame, but I sure know which one is more malleable.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Just tread a few of the pages that were posted today and as soon as anti-ban players bring up some good points, pro-ban players either ignore their posts or call them trolls

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Hypothetical scenario here:

Metaknight's now unbanned!

What universal rules would you instate to keep him from running a very slow moving train through every major tournament?

No Metaknight specific rules.

Go.

 

[Kink-Link5]

2 stock, 12 minute, every stage but YI:B banned, "Dave's stupid rule except with characters" applied for the winner of the last round's character.

 

[Vyse]

Hypothetical scenario here:

Metaknight's now unbanned!

What universal rules would you instate to keep him from running a very slow moving train through every major tournament?

No Metaknight specific rules.

Go.

Ledge grab limit.

Actually no,

1 stock, 3 min, food on.

No more planking.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ledge grab limit.

Actually no,

1 stock, 3 min, food on.

No more planking.

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

Of how much? Have we not already decided by our previous rule sets that 50 Ledge Grabs is too much for Metaknight?

Is it reasonable to prevent Mario from grabbing the ledge 35 times in an 8 minute, 3 stock round?

It could work. But not sure that would actually help considering Metaknight already lives absurdly long considering his weight. Now he's got heals if he can keep his opponent away? Ouch.

2 stock, 12 minute, every stage but YI:B banned, "Dave's stupid rule except with characters" applied for the winner of the last round's character.

That would certainly work. Be kind of lame though. And a huge pain for TOs if Metaknights still try to stall that 12 minute timer.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I feel like this beongs here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOBnvRIl_2k

 

[Mikhas]

I don't play Brawl and, honestly, I think it's a poor competitive game. However, I am very interested in competitive games and their rules and balancing. I've read quite a few posts in this thread and it seems to me that a lot of the posts are arguing about the wrong things.

Yes, Metaknight is the best character in the game, but that's not a reason to ban him. The real reason he should be banned is because of the rules instated in a specific attempt to balance him. The LGL, scrooging, and IDC (can someone explain how this rule works?) are bad rules. They are far too subjective and require judgment from outside of the game. Look through the rules of any successful competitive video game and you won't find a rule like this. A rule where, while the screen may show the player the victor, he's disqualified for something he did in the game. Exceptions, of course, being things like glitches which freeze the game or usage of cheating devices.

I don't know much about this game, but if these rules really were made just to keep Metaknight in the metagame, then the logical course of action is to ban him from play and remove these subjective rules. It may be that, even after this has been done, the best tactic will still be to gain the lead and then stall the match out to win by timeout. If this is the case then it might be time to just accept that this is Brawl's metagame and there isn't anything that can be done about it.

 

[Browny]

lmfao and we are supposed to respect that style of play

'play to win'

mk mains need to play a game a frogger IRL and then complain when the car tries its best to win

 

[Mic_128]

stage list is much too expansive to say that at present time.

MK's performance hasn't changed whether the stage list is very generous or shrunk to 5.

Melee managed with four separate versions. More subtle in differences than Balanced Brawl? Yeah, but they're still there.

They also weren't affected by the community. There were just those 4 versions with a small handful of very subtle changes, none making any dramatic difference. Opening up hacking brings in millions of potential versions with small changes such as increasing a move's damage by 1% to Brawl- level of changes. Everyone will have a difference of opinion of which is better, hence Brawl+, Brawl-, Project: M, Balanced Brawl, ect.

Not to mention the fact that even now not all code sets are arranged for PAL and JPN.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

A few things that Pro-Bans bring up that are not true

1. MK breaks the counter pick system

No he does not. He still loses to characters like Diddy and ICs on FD, and Snake on Halberd and Falco on Jungle Japes.

2. We add specific rules to limit him

This is also not true. IDC counts as stalling and is banned because of that reason. There is a ledge grab limit for every character in Brawl, not just MK.

 

[John12346]

I feel like this beongs here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOBnvRIl_2k

11:00 - The new PatG DI!?

But real talk, more time out shenanigans...

 

[Mic_128]

1. MK breaks the counter pick system

No he does not. He still loses to characters like Diddy and ICs on FD

What happens when the MK player bans FD?

, and Snake on Halberd

What happens when the MK player bans Halberd?

and Falco on Jungle Japes.

What happens when the MK player bans Jungle Japes? Assuming the stage is legal to begin with.

2. We add specific rules to limit him

This is also not true. IDC counts as stalling and is banned because of that reason. There is a ledge grab limit for every character in Brawl, not just MK.

LGL was only added because of MK. The reason it affected everyone was because if a rule that limited only MK was added to nerf him, then he might as well be banned. Now that he is, I wouldn't be surprised if LGL rules were removed in the next iteration or two of the official ruleset.

 

[El Duderino]

And forcing players to play with hacks doesn't screw anyone over? You keep saying everybody can do it, but we both know that's a huge lie. And yes, they're just as bannable as anything. Don't act like Meta Knight can't be banned at all. If you're saying shouldn't, I understand why you would think that, but he's not exempt from being cut like items or stages. He's another part of the game that can be chosen to be banned too. He's not any more special, after all.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said everyone will go along with it or certain players won't be upset. That is not any different than what is going on now. But this "not everyone can do it" barrier you keep bringing up is so specific, I doubt anyone active in the community will be effected by it, and aside from a radical few, butt-hurt enough about it to quit.

Remember, Smash players this late in the game are a dedicated bunch. We are talking about the same type of people who have no problem importing GC controllers and dropping dough on travel expenses for a video game tournament. It also is the same group of players that time and time again feel marginalized, either by Sakurai's less-than-competitive choices or by lame but necessary tournament rules, yet still come out to play and support the game. We have quite frankly put up with a lot of crap, but for the minimal fee of an SD card we can wash a lot of the obvious BS away.

Sure, it's not free, but it's not like you are dropping money on something that serves no other purpose. The Wii's limited internal memory makes the SD card purchase worth it on its own. Just think of it as requiring the Gamecube memory card equivalent. It's also handy to have a portable Smash save for obvious reasons.

The thing that was out of hand specifically was Meta Knight. That was dealt with by banning. As I said, the only real complainable thing beyond him is Tripping. That's the only reason anybody wouldn't mind going to a tourney that uses hacks. They can simply only add that, and the game would be more skillful by taking out luck. However, this is not needed either. Tripping can be beneficial because you can also dodge things. So it has its uses.

I would argue the edge rules are also out of hand, but that's just an opinion. Also I'm not following your logic here about tripping being a beneficial way to dodge things. Removing it though is definitely one thing that could excite people about using a Mod instead, but it is far from the only thing. We are talking about having a full roaster of characters, larger array of competitively viable stages, and a resulting streamlined ruleset. That is quite a bit to be happy about in addition to many more positives.

And no, I'm not going to just stop stating the obvious here because a couple TOs are against it. I'm not a sheep.

 

[Browny]

Careful mic, youve asked jebus to think.

thats a dangerous road youre sending him on.

 

[John12346]

1. MK breaks the counter pick system

No he does not. He still loses to characters like Diddy and ICs on FD, and Snake on Halberd and Falco on Jungle Japes.

FD is always banned by MK.
Japes isn't legal regardless, although it should be, and even if it was, you don't know for sure that Falco beats MK there.
You also can't say that Snake beats MK on Halberd. What makes you think that?

2. We add specific rules to limit him

This is also not true. IDC counts as stalling and is banned because of that reason. There is a ledge grab limit for every character in Brawl, not just MK.

Agreed on the IDC controversey.

MK has a blatantly lower ledge grab limit. The 50 set on every character is likely there to keep the game interesting, but the 35 on MK is there because he would obviously break the game if he had a 50 LGL, or worse, no LGL at all.

You also must remember that about fifty billion different rule proposals have sprung up here on the boards, such as air time limit, limiting the stagelist, scrooging limit, etc etc etc, all in an attempt to nerf MK.

Protip: If you advocate those sorts of surgical nerfs, then you admit that MK is too powerful of a force in Brawl under normal, unrestricted gameplay.

 

[Kuraudo]

1. MK breaks the counter pick system

No he does not. He still loses to characters like Diddy and ICs on FD, and Snake on Halberd and Falco on Jungle Japes.

2. We add specific rules to limit him

This is also not true. IDC counts as stalling and is banned because of that reason. There is a ledge grab limit for every character in Brawl, not just MK.

Yet who started the ledge grab limit if I recall correctly? As well as scrooging.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Hint: It wasn't Pit or Sonic.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What happens when the MK player bans FD?

What happens when the MK player bans Halberd?

What happens when the MK player bans Jungle Japes? Assuming the stage is legal to begin with.



LGL was only added because of MK. The reason it affected everyone was because if a rule that limited only MK was added to nerf him, then he might as well be banned. Now that he is, I wouldn't be surprised if LGL rules were removed in the next iteration or two of the official ruleset.

My point is that he has bad stage specific match ups which means that there is no way he can possibly break the CP system if he can theoretically be stage countered.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13438670&postcount=158

brought this up before and it was ignored


@John12346, No character really needs more than 35 ledge grabs. Socal has never had a problem with a 35 LGL on every character in the past and it was only changed because of unity

 

[Vyse]

I don't play Brawl and, honestly, I think it's a poor competitive game. However, I am very interested in competitive games and their rules and balancing. I've read quite a few posts in this thread and it seems to me that a lot of the posts are arguing about the wrong things.

Yes, Metaknight is the best character in the game, but that's not a reason to ban him. The real reason he should be banned is because of the rules instated in a specific attempt to balance him. The LGL, scrooging, and IDC (can someone explain how this rule works?) are bad rules. They are far too subjective and require judgment from outside of the game. Look through the rules of any successful competitive video game and you won't find a rule like this. A rule where, while the screen may show the player the victor, he's disqualified for something he did in the game. Exceptions, of course, being things like glitches which freeze the game or usage of cheating devices.

I don't know much about this game, but if these rules really were made just to keep Metaknight in the metagame, then the logical course of action is to ban him from play and remove these subjective rules. It may be that, even after this has been done, the best tactic will still be to gain the lead and then stall the match out to win by timeout. If this is the case then it might be time to just accept that this is Brawl's metagame and there isn't anything that can be done about it.

You might be interested in this video that shows pretty much the only way to effectively beat Perfect Planking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4

 

[Battousai780]

Yet who started the ledge grab limit if I recall correctly? As well as scrooging.

You're completely wrong. I don't know if you've ever been to an earlier HOBO where there was no ledge grab limit. Literally everyone planked. Marth, Samus, Pit etc.

Also, in a match at the last WHOBO, (I don't remember their names but it's a semi-famous match) DK got the lead vs olimar and literally just dropped down up-b'ed until the timer ran out since Olimar cant do anything.

Your point invalid.

 

[Browny]

Except olimar can do something

many things

which is why the aftermath of that match is so unbelievably hilarious

 

[Kuraudo]

You're completely wrong. I don't know if you've ever been to an earlier HOBO where there was no ledge grab limit. Literally everyone planked. Marth, Samus, Pit etc.

Also, in a match at the last WHOBO, (I don't remember their names but it's a semi-famous match) DK got the lead vs olimar and literally just dropped down up-b'ed until the timer ran out since Olimar cant do anything.

Your point invalid.

I was at that WHOBO. That was ****ing hilarious. LMAO

Everyone planked, and yet whose planking is unbeatable? Meta Knight's. Marth can try planking me but I'm just gonna shield and snap the ledge before he grabs on.

 

[Mikhas]

You might be interested in this video that shows pretty much the only way to effectively beat Perfect Planking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4

That is interesting, thank you. Is planking only such a strong strategy for MK, or is it equally as good for every character? Will Brawl still need the LGL after MK's ban?

 

[John12346]

All planking outside of MK's is relatively easy to handle. There are two ways to get on the edge(Shield SDI opponent's attack off the stage or just be right next to the ledge when the opponent inputs a ledge drop), and from there, it's simple enough to appropriately respond to your opponent's options.

In MK's case, you're at risk of eating a billion different things that result in death if you try that shizzle, so idk.

Planking in general, despite this, is still somewhat challenging to beat, so I can understand the rationale behind keeping it, although I disagree with it.

 

[Mic_128]

My point is that he has bad stage specific match ups which means that there is no way he can possibly break the CP system if he can theoretically be stage countered.

Except that I just showed he can't be.

 

[WindMajor]

My point is that he has bad stage specific match ups which means that there is no way he can possibly break the CP system if he can theoretically be stage countered.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13438670&postcount=158

Planking should be limited because it is low risk high reward and it benefits the player who has the lead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJaLEjFCuZE&t=2m30s

look what happens when ADHD tries to stop him from planking. This is proof that it may work in theory, but it is a lot harder to stop in reality

brought this up before and it was ignored

If your point is that planking should be limited, then your point hasn't been ignored, since I've been answering it by posting the same link like a million times to numerous different people. If you believe planking should be limited, then you should be pro-ban, unless you are in favor of placing faulty rules.

My rebuttal: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13376599&postcount=102

 

[Thino]

Except that I just showed he can't be.

sorry, I'm not familiar with the CP system, why let the MK player, and players in general have a possibility to ban the stage theiy're weak on?

 

[Mic_128]

sorry, I'm not familiar with the CP system, why let the MK player, and players in general have a possibility to ban the stage theiy're weak on?

Because all characters (bar MK) have more than 1 weak stage. Even then, those stages Jebus linked aren't stages MK is weak on, rather stages that those other characters are good on.