Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Shwaffles]

You should tell the people who get paid to live, eat, and breath SC2 that it's a joke. Or David Kim or the countless others at Blizzard who put more hours than anyone here would ever with anything in their lives.

Brawl may be dead, and I may criticize its community's decisions, but I would never say that they DON'T CARE about their game.

Thanks for being one less person I have to respond to.

Props to the players and developers for putting such a hard effort. I'm all for it. However, the game never had enough time to breathe before getting patched into oblivion.
SC:BW was able to be balanced by the community and didn't rely on the developers listening to the new players.

 

[Ripple]

@ Ripple -





Show me proof that MK, the character, dominates everything.

We all know he is broken, but we also know he can be defeated aswell.

What system? You don't even care for the system because MK just destroys it that much (as you imply). So if MK isn't God, or undefeatable.. As you seem to imply, then what is he?

nice try but you didn't quote on something that wasn't factual. care to try again?

 

[~Tac~]

Oh baby. I came back just as last night repeats itself.

Anyway. Apex is looking like it's going to be chock FULL of Knights of the Metagame.

 

[Pathetiqu3]

Props to the players and developers for putting such a hard effort. I'm all for it. However, the game never had enough time to breathe before getting patched into oblivion.
SC:BW was able to be balanced by the community and didn't rely on the developers listening to the new players.

I don't agree with it being patched into oblivion, but more importantly I want to state that I believe a developer that tries and does not entirely succeed is much better and more deserving of gamer attention than one that ignores and even sabotages his own games.

 

[El Duderino]

It still does apply to cheating. Cheating is using an outside influence in a game.

Haha, by that logic, having an outside rules set is cheating as well.

Likewise, a game can be played competitively without any modifications to the original game.

In this case not very well. You have to ban a character and create overbaring rules to follow.

Look you would have a point if this were a different game where the flaws are more manageable. But we are talking about Brawl here. The game is riddled with, to use a term you love throwing around, cheats that can break the pacing and balance of the game. Nothing is ever going to be perfect, but lets stop pretending this is as good as it gets.

 

[Shwaffles]

nice try but you didn't quote on something that wasn't factual. care to try again?

You expressed a little bit of doubt. You said that he wasn't "too good".

 

[Alien Vision]

you didn't quote on something that wasn't factual.

Dear lord. You made this one too easy.

In all seriousness though, you need to provide a better argument. What you're saying isn't proof, and if it was true.. I'd think there would be alot more of a uproar than there appears to be right now.

Also, it seems like the MK mains didn't get a say in this pro-ban as much as they should've.

I'm being serious about this argument. Stop acting like I am some insignificant troll, when you, yourself, aren't even contributing and persist to hide behind your ''facts'' when it's just what you personally think. I sense incredible spite towards MK from you. Perhaps that coudl blind your judgment, mhmm?

 

[Exceladon City]

Broken basically means he is overpowered.

Although I will admit that I wasn't under the impression MK was barely defeatable with the rules being used.

I will say this though. It still seems bias, and I don't seem to see enough people complaining that MK is as bannable as some of you guys do. You tend to question the turmoil within an uproar only in a small population of people.

That's because the majority of the people that aren't complaining are the MK mains, the people that get over on the ignorance of said MK mains and the people who don't want their absolute worst MU next to MK to become dominant. Which the first part of that isn't even completely true. There are MK mains who picked him up solely to add fuel to the ban.


Do you even attend tournaments?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Props to the players and developers for putting such a hard effort. I'm all for it. However, the game never had enough time to breathe before getting patched into oblivion.
SC:BW was able to be balanced by the community and didn't rely on the developers listening to the new players.

You dont know what you are talking about. Every one of blizzards games gets patches a lot in the beginning and that slows as time goes on. There have been 4 major patches in over a year since it was released. Every one of them was needed. There probably wont be another patch for another year, possibly until HotS comes out.

Also you have no idea about the developement of the BW or sc2 scene. BW was basically a joke until a ~2000 patch. Find some pro matches from before that time, i would be surprised if you could. SC2 has grown INFINITELY faster than BW did.

 

[Black Mantis]

Oh baby. I came back just as last night repeats itself.

Anyway. Apex is looking like it's going to be chock FULL of Knights of the Metagame.

that's why you gotta teach me how to lucario
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11kLYfDhCMM

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Everyone should care about a balanced game, or am I in the wrong subforum? Mods are the easiest, most precise, and most mature choice in that regard. Or at least were.

Regardless of how you want to call it, sometimes that community should be able to say "okay, we need to do this our own way." Just ask schtserv.com who's only means of playing an abandoned game was through the "cheating" of several community members adopted wholesale.

Brawl was abandoned at birth.

Keep in mind that banning character/stages/items is "doing it our way" as is. The problem is, you're talking about a game unplayable outside of cheating. We do not need to use cheats in order to play this game. That's the key difference.

Mind you, it was Sakurai who abandoned any hope of balance in Brawl. We didn't. We didn't make rules so they wouldn't be followed. When it comes to a fighting game community, they make rules no matter what. Also, keep in mind that there's quite a lot of annoyance with updates as well, especially when they cost tons of money. If you don't have the correct version, you're screwed.

We're working with what we payed for originally. That includes the TO's discretion to limit what can be done competitive-wise. Since Nintendo does not sponsor these Tournaments anymore(outside of its release), we have to do it. Now, since the game can be played right outside of the box(if you will), why do we NEED to use cheat devices/codes to actually play it? So far, the only reason to use codes is just personal preference. And expecting everyone to use the same codes is asking more than you think. We'd actually lose quite a lot of people who have things called morals about cheating. What this means is the turn-out won't be nearly as good, especially those who honestly can't get ahold of an SD Card and an appropriate computer.(and yes, these people exist) So they're screwed over. Not needing anything but the game, a Wii, and a GameCube Controller(which is just like every other typical fighting community, albeit controllers are variable) is perfectly fine.

 

[IhaveSonar]

Let me start by saying that this is pure theorycraft, and I'm not a competitive smasher, at least not yet. Read on anyway.

Let's suppose Brawl was released without MK in it, just with the other 37(I think it's 37) characters. The game grows and develops for three years, and while it is noted for not being as great as Melee is, it proves to be a popular, competitive game.

Then, three years later, Nintendo offers to release a patch that includes a character with six jumps, four recovery moves, amazing range, transcendent priority, good kill power, and many other amazing traits. This character would dominate most others in the game, have no bad matchups or stages, and would basically change the metagame to revolve around surviving this behemoth of a smash character.

Would you want this patch?

No, of course not. Why would anyone want to add an overpowered(we all agree that he's overpowered, the argument is over whether or not he needs a ban) character to the game, especially since the metagame already had proven to be reasonably balanced among the other top tiers?

That patch would be a nightmare scenario. Brawl, in reality, was released with that patch. So why are we defending it? Just because it was there from the start?

 

[Ripple]

Dear lord. You made this one too easy.

In all seriousness though, you need to provide a better argument. What you're saying isn't proof, and if it was true.. I'd think there would be alot more of a uproar than there appears to be right now.

Also, it seems like the MK mains didn't get a say in this pro-ban as much as they should've.

I'm being serious about this argument. Stop acting like I am some insignificant troll, when you, yourself, aren't even contributing and persist to hide behind your ''facts'' when it's just what you personally think. I sense incredible spite towards MK from you. Perhaps that coudl blind your judgment, mhmm?

a better argument? you won't get anything better OBJECTIVELY than he breaks the CP system. that's NOT OPINION and you're ******** for thinking it is so.

I'm not even trolling you. I was being serious. I told you to quote me when I used something subjective in my argument. you failed to do so.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

@IhaveSonar MK's metagame would be so far behind. MK is pretty much banned because of how far M2K pushed his strategies.

 

[Alien Vision]

That's because the majority of the people that aren't complaining are the MK mains, the people that get over on the ignorance of said MK mains and the people who don't want their absolute worst MU next to MK to become dominant. Which the first part of that isn't even completely true. There are MK mains who picked him up solely to add fuel to the ban.


Do you even attend tournaments?

Look. This does not matter if I attend tournies or not.

This is basically smoothing out the edges of this argument regarding MK's ban. When things aren't adding up as much as they should, you tend to question the nature of the entire origin, and it's advocate's reasoning.

It seems like only you guys are saying MK needs to be banned. I don't see enough people making a big deal out of this, as if MK really makes that big of a significant impact. Now do I? It seems most people are neutral. I'm not sure who all was in the URC, but the people that stand out as overly pro-ban would be: Xyro, AZ, Ripple, You, and a few others I cannot recall currently.



Of course, that'll give me the tendency to question things.

 

[~Tac~]

This thread hasn't been really about Metaknight since like page 60, has it?

 

[Pathetiqu3]

Keep in mind that banning character/stages/items is "doing it our way" as is. The problem is, you're talking about a game unplayable outside of cheating. We do not need to use cheats in order to play this game. That's the key difference.

Mind you, it was Sakurai who abandoned any hope of balance in Brawl. We didn't. We didn't make rules so they wouldn't be followed. When it comes to a fighting game community, they make rules no matter what. Also, keep in mind that there's quite a lot of annoyance with updates as well, especially when they cost tons of money. If you don't have the correct version, you're screwed.

We're working with what we payed for originally. That includes the TO's discretion to limit what can be done competitive-wise. Since Nintendo does not sponsor these Tournaments anymore(outside of its release), we have to do it. Now, since the game can be played right outside of the box(if you will), why do we NEED to use cheat devices/codes to actually play it? So far, the only reason to use codes is just personal preference. And expecting everyone to use the same codes is asking more than you think. We'd actually lose quite a lot of people who have things called morals about cheating. What this means is the turn-out won't be nearly as good, especially those who honestly can't get ahold of an SD Card and an appropriate computer.(and yes, these people exist) So they're screwed over. Not needing anything but the game, a Wii, and a GameCube Controller(which is just like every other typical fighting community, albeit controllers are variable) is perfectly fine.

The game is of course playable, but it could be better. Tripping would instantly be gone, and there's 3-4 of my friends already playing brawl again right there. Then MK could get surgically altered, suddenly my MK-maining friend is playing again too. The rewards are astronomically higher than the risks, but no one saw it that way when it mattered. The game is too mature to handle modding now, but I firmly believe it was at one point the right thing to do.

Those people are too marginal to really worry over, honestly. Assuming your moral outrage withstood that sentence and you're still reading, I'm sure someone has a statistic on the number of people who own a wii but have no access to a computer capable of reading an SD card.

 

[Ripple]

Look. This does not matter if I attend tournies or not.

This is basically smoothing out the edges of this argument regarding MK's ban. When things aren't adding up as much as they should, you tend to question the nature of the entire origin, and it's advocate's reasoning.

It seems like only you guys are saying MK needs to be banned. I don't see enough people making a big deal out of this, as if MK really makes that big of a significant impact. Now do I? It seems most people are neutral. I'm not sure who all was in the URC, but the people that stand out as overly pro-ban would be: Xyro, AZ, Ripple, You, and a few others I cannot recall currently.



Of course, that'll give me the tendency to question things.

'

who said I was proban? I've stated my opinion on this many times. I'm just giving you A reason as to why he could be banned.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Haha, by that logic, having an outside rules set is cheating as well.

Nope. Tell that to any Sports that does it. There's a huge difference. When a committee makes a rule, it needs to be followed to allow anyone to play. Anyone breaking those rules is not allowed to play anymore. Right now, you're twisting the point of rules for your own benefit.

In this case not very well. You have to ban a character and create overbaring rules to follow.

Look you would have a point if this were a different game where the flaws are more manageable. But we are talking about Brawl here. The game is riddled with, to use a term you love throwing around, cheats that can break the pacing and balance of the game. Nothing is ever going to be perfect, but lets stop pretending this is as good as it gets.

It's not ridiculed with any cheats, though. Also, let's keep in mind we already kept overbearing rules for Meta Knight so he doesn't completely dominate the scene. But he STILL is. So your argument falls apart right there. We already did it. And it didn't work. Once again, yours is only pure theory that modding would actually be allowed. By the way, do you know why Wii's are bricked from going online? It's when people use hacks to cheat in games. So yes, in the Video Game World, hacks are cheating. Breaking rules are cheating. Playing by the rules is not cheating. That's beyond simple.

The game is of course playable, but it could be better. Tripping would instantly be gone, and there's 3-4 of my friends already playing brawl again right there. Then MK could get surgically altered, suddenly my MK-maining friend is playing again too. The rewards are astronomically higher than the risks, but no one saw it that way when it mattered. The game is too mature to handle modding now, but I firmly believe it was at one point the right thing to do.

Those people are too marginal to really worry over, honestly. Assuming your moral outrage withstood that sentence and you're still reading, I'm sure someone has a statistic on the number of people who own a wii but have no access to a computer capable of reading an SD card.

And then players will ask for more done with the game. I didn't say modding a game couldn't lead to interesting scenarios. But saying it should be allowed in tournaments with money isn't exactly anything more than a problem. I do not consider modding a game as the right answer either. Nor does the TO's for the URC, by their own words. They've made it clear they won't use hacks. Let's say they do. Many players will refuse to use them, and not only will not show up, but they'd lose credibility alone for resorting to something as ridiculous as cheating.

 

[Ripple]

You expressed a little bit of doubt. You said that he wasn't "too good".

that's not what I said.

I said I wasn't going to make the claim that he was too good. that doesn't mean he isn't.

i said that because it wasn't part of my argument

 

[Alien Vision]

'

who said I was proban? I've stated my opinion on this many times. I'm just giving you reasons as to why he could be banned.

You imply so. You gave the perfect impression that you weren't going to budge by enforcing a string of words that basically said: ''NOTHING YOU WILL SAY WILL CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT WHY MK SHOULD BE BANNED.''

Whatever though, I misinterpreted that apparently.

As to what you said earlier: We already know that MK has all of the advantages he could ever need. So of course you cannot CP him.

Atleast answer me this. Is MK the way he is only because of M2K?

 

[Shwaffles]

I don't agree with it being patched into oblivion, but more importantly I want to state that I believe a developer that tries and does not entirely succeed is much better and more deserving of gamer attention than one that ignores and even sabotages his own games.

He didn't try to sabotage his own game. He just doesn't understand how being competitive can be fun for some people. He wanted his game to fit his vision and made it into something he liked and for the majority of his fans. He doesn't need the "competitive community".

Now that we have calmed down a bit, I want to try to explain the views of the competitive fighting game community regarding "balance" in a way that you can understand. In regards to patches, the majority community doesn't like them at all unless they are small buffs. Adding more depth to the game is much better than removing it. Unfortunately, the trend among developers is to lazily nerf current dominant tactics into the ground. New dominant tactics would spring up, and would get patched before people can figure out how to deal with them. They feel that there is no point in learning the game, if what you just figured is going to be useless later. This sort of re-enforced the hatred for patches, because they feel that the developers don't know enough about their own game. Instead of nerfs the community prefers the game to remain untouched.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

I'm thinking Alien Vision/Shwaffles needs to sit down and have a couple of games with M2K on RC/Brinstar with no LGL.

 

[popsofctown]

Duderino has to deal with so much stupidity on the internet

Hearing someone calling a mod "cheating" is just plain sad.

Funniest thing I've heard since "wavecheating"

 

[Shadic]

It's not ridiculed with any cheats, though. Also, let's keep in mind we already kept overbearing rules for Meta Knight so he doesn't completely dominate the scene. But he STILL is. So your argument falls apart right there. We already did it. And it didn't work. Once again, yours is only pure theory that modding would actually be allowed. By the way, do you know why Wii's are bricked from going online? It's when people use hacks to cheat in games. So yes, in the Video Game World, hacks are cheating. Breaking rules are cheating. Playing by the rules is not cheating. That's beyond simple.

Wow, you're utterly missing the point. Par the the course.

What Your Dudeness was saying you can either band-aid "fix" Brawl and make it marginally acceptable for competitive play by banning a character, putting rules against strategies, etc, or you can have people play something like Balanced Brawl.

And also, Smashstack doesn't brick Wiis. Nor does going online with a modded Wii. Using game-altering hacks online just causes a desync and ultimately a (temporary) disconnection. Please don't use your ignorance as an argument in this debate.

 

[Alien Vision]

I'm thinking Alien Vision/Shwaffles needs to sit down and have a couple of games with M2K on RC/Brinstar with no LGL.

You aren't getting the point of the argument. Obviously we would lose because we aren't at that level..

M2K is just M2K. No questions asked.

Your logic saps my IQ.

 

[Ripple]

You imply so. You gave the perfect impression that you weren't going to budge by enforcing a string of words that basically said: ''NOTHING YOU WILL SAY WILL CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT WHY MK SHOULD BE BANNED.''

Whatever though, I misinterpreted that apparently.

As to what you said earlier: We already know that MK has all of the advantages he could ever need. So of course you cannot CP him.

Atleast answer me this. Is MK the way he is only because of M2K?

not even close to how I sounded.

so now you agree that he is broken? cool.

and no to your final question. which I find to be overly stupid if anyone says yes

 

[popsofctown]

Stalling on the ledge isn't called "M2K-ing"..

 

[Alien Vision]

not even close to how I sounded.

so now you agree that he is broken? cool.

and no to your final question. which I find to be overly stupid if anyone says yes

You're telling me that M2K isn't why MK is what he is now?

I already said MK was broken, were you not listening? I was making the argument that he was defeatable, but apparently only with the rules. So, apparently MK is undefeatable when the rules aren't in session.

 

[Chuee]

Stalling on the ledge isn't called "M2K-ing"..

I'd hope we wouldn't call it that.
mewtwokinging
that sounds..................................awful

 

[Alien Vision]

Stalling on the ledge isn't called "M2K-ing"..

The overall techniques and loopholes I mean..

 

[Shwaffles]

not even close to how I sounded.

so now you agree that he is broken? cool.

and no to your final question. which I find to be overly stupid if anyone says yes

Nobody said he wasn't overpowered. He just isn't good enough for a ban. At the highest levels, it literally needs to be game over as soon as the round starts. I agree with that he is cutting it REALLY REALLY close, but he hasn't hit mugen status yet.

 

[Ripple]

You're telling me that M2K isn't why MK is what he is now?

I already said MK was broken, were you not listening? I was making the argument that he was defeatable, but apparently only with the rules. So, apparently MK is undefeatable when the rules aren't in session.

are you telling me he is?


that's just plain disrespectful to ally, tyrant, nairo, atomsk, Anti, Dojo, Seibrik, and I guess Redhalberd,

 

[popsofctown]

I'd hope we wouldn't call it that.
mewtwokinging
that sounds..................................awful

I like it actually. It's like a normal Meta Knight player is just a checker piece, capable of jumping other ones or getting beaten itself. Then it realizes it can stall on the ledge. And it advances to a great level of transcendence. Then it loses all it's hair, grows a tail, and it's eyes glow with purple fury: it has been Mewtwo Kinged. Now it is god.


Anyway, it's called planking, plank popularized it, other people advanced Meta Knight's metagame, etc.

 

[Alien Vision]

are you telling me he is?


that's just plain disrespectful to ally, tyrant, nairo, atomsk, Anti, Dojo, Seibrik, and I guess Redhalberd,

Can't blame a blind man when he cannot see what he is doing.

I am obviously not renowned, nor do I attend tournies.. But I do like to contribute when I can, and share my own viewpoints.

So I wouldn't say disrespecting.. More like, not knowing, and now that you've told me, I think I know that now.

Ok, so out of all of these players. Who are at top level, like basically the top of the top? Besides Ally, Tyrant, and nairo? Now I'm just trying to get lucky. You get the idea though. I lack this part of the knowledge, and you need to help me understand this part so I can explain more of my opposition towards your reasons for BAN MK.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Can't blame a blind man when he cannot see what he is doing.

You can blame a blind man for insisting he can diffuse a bomb though.

 

[popsofctown]

All Alien vision did was ask a question, Ripple assumed a statement that didn't exist because it's the internet.

 

[Alien Vision]

You can blame a blind man for insisting he can diffuse a bomb though.

Not when he isn't blind at diffusing a bomb.

Just blind at entering some planes of knowledge.

 

[Ripple]

All Alien vision did was ask a question, Ripple assumed a statement that didn't exist because it's the internet.

fricken internet

 

[Atlus8]

I've been thinking more about this banned through the day and I think attendance is likely to spike! Let me tell you why!

Around two years ago, there was a tournament held here in SoCal for Melee called Arcadian Tournament! A rule for this tournament was that NO RANKED PLAYERS WAS ABLE TO ENTER! This was made to encourage the lesser skilled players to compete! MANY people thought it was a bad idea at first, but it turned out to be a HUGE success! It had over 70 entrants when most of us expected around 30 at best! Many of these players weren't even regulars that showed up at the regular tournaments!

With MK banned, I think it's almost the same thing! So, I think there might be an increase in attendance . . . for the wrong reasons!